Shipwright Archive
Thread: JTL Decay is not fun, here's why, proposed solution
Eaca
Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:49 am
#14
Envoy3113 wrote:
It's really not too bad. I can spend a few hours in kessel, not die, and at the end of it I got tons of loot and a fairly fat credit chip to bank along with it. All that really suffers is my armor, unless I get reckless and tackle a dozen of the turning gunships.
More than enough creds to support the habit. And that doesn't even take into account the faction points.
I keep a mind to shoot before being shot. Oddly enough, lately the only people who have actually gotten the drop on me in space have sent me tells asking for a truce. Works for me as I was lazy on the radar and tangled with a half dozen ships when I get the tell 'Don't shoot!!! I call truce'.
Well if you're out wanting to have some PvP fun you're going to die a lot. No its not bad for PvE since my shields rarely get below half, and that's in deep space. In PvP the only way you can take on multiple targets again and again is if your ship can take a hit or two. The space equivalent of clone zerging in deep space is actually a lot of fun for both sides, since there's no uber buffs (seeing as most everybody has all the necessary droid programs they can run themselves), all you gotta do is run your droid programs, and jump back in the fight. Instead of being able to have PvP fun in deep space, I'd just run before I let my good components decay to nothing in one fight (I'll die 5+ times in one session, that's 40% decay from where I started if I had to repair every time). Watching a 1mil credit Oppressor go from 2800 chassis HP to 1600 in less than an hour isn't fun for me, is it for you?
Bastilaa
Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:08 pm
#15
Eaca wrote:
sbob wrote:
Also your armor comparison is a bit flawed as well. A componet does not work less when it is dammaged except fpr the case of Armor.
Only slightly flawed tho. Do you lose 10% of your HAM every time you die on land? Or does each time you die are you only able to be buffed back up to 90% of what you were last time you died? That's what happens in space, and it's actually far worse than my comparison. Components are there to keep me alive. Both in performing thier function and absorbing damage.If every time I die they lose 10% of thier ability to absorb damage, well then they work less.
I dont thing you are fully understanding the decay system it's not 7 deaths and your parts are usless, it's 10% of whats left, so it takes about 43 deaths to kill a single part (thats a lot of deaths). The only part that has borked decay is Armor as its effectivness goes down every time it is repaired. Being a4 Time Master Pilot and who's spouse is about to Master there 2nd Pilot profession we have yet to destroy a single compnent that has decayed fully.
Now put that into the perspective of a ground combat profession, where doing the grind to master would often use up several weapons. I/We have managed to do 6 Pilot Professions and in all honesty we have used maybe 3 or 4 sets of armor and that was mostly due to having a large amount of fun blasting Tier 5 gunboats. Armor is busted 100% agree with you on that but the decay as it stands is fair and right IMHO as both a pilot and a SW
Eaca
Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:24 pm
#16
Bastilaa wrote:
Eaca wrote:
sbob wrote:
Also your armor comparison is a bit flawed as well. A componet does not work less when it is dammaged except fpr the case of Armor.
Only slightly flawed tho. Do you lose 10% of your HAM every time you die on land? Or does each time you die are you only able to be buffed back up to 90% of what you were last time you died? That's what happens in space, and it's actually far worse than my comparison. Components are there to keep me alive. Both in performing thier function and absorbing damage.If every time I die they lose 10% of thier ability to absorb damage, well then they work less.
I dont thing you are fully understanding the decay system it's not 7 deaths and your parts are usless, it's 10% of whats left, so it takes about 43 deaths to kill a single part (thats a lot of deaths). The only part that has borked decay is Armor as its effectivness goes down every time it is repaired. Being a4 Time Master Pilot and who's spouse is about to Master there 2nd Pilot profession we have yet to destroy a single compnent that has decayed fully.
Now put that into the perspective of a ground combat profession, where doing the grind to master would often use up several weapons. I/We have managed to do 6 Pilot Professions and in all honesty we have used maybe 3 or 4 sets of armor and that was mostly due to having a large amount of fun blasting Tier 5 gunboats. Armor is busted 100% agree with you on that but the decay as it stands is fair and right IMHO as both a pilot and a SW
When you're trying to design your ship around not only being able to maneuver and put out damage, but also to be able to take a few hits in the process, yes after 7 deaths the parts usefulness is greatly reduced. Right now, except for a full hit from a B-wing, firespray, or krayt (which is very hard to do against a tiny oppressor) I can live thru 2 hits, maybe 3 if I'm lucky. If I did this in a normal zone, after 7 deaths, I'd only be able to take 1 maybe 2, 7 more deaths and I'd be getting one shotted again.
Bastilaa
Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:47 pm
#17
Eaca wrote:
When you're trying to design your ship around not only being able to maneuver and put out damage, but also to be able to take a few hits in the process, yes after 7 deaths the parts usefulness is greatly reduced. Right now, except for a full hit from a B-wing, firespray, or krayt (which is very hard to do against a tiny oppressor) I can live thru 2 hits, maybe 3 if I'm lucky. If I did this in a normal zone, after 7 deaths, I'd only be able to take 1 maybe 2, 7 more deaths and I'd be getting one shotted again.
Where are you getting the 7 deaths from? the only thing that decays and reduces effectiveness is Armor on Armor and this is very broken. As for part decay on all other parts I see no issues at all, with it taking 43 deaths to fully decay a part, as I know for a fact my composite armor on the ground does not last even close to that long and costs a lot to replace.
I want to understand your issue but I'm not sure what your problem is. In order for a part to suffer decay it must take more than x amount of damage (I believe) I have died and some parts have not taken a single hit and have not taken any decay. An exmaple of the decay on say a weapon is below, maybe we are in different pages but I'm a little lost
700 Armor
700 HP
1st Death (10% of 700)
630 Armor
630 HP
2nd Death (10% of 630)
567 Armor
567 HP
Now Armor on Armor is broken again I agree on this but decay on other parts does not reduce the effectiveness of those parts no matter how many times you die until they fully decay (43 deaths).
Kalano
Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:06 pm
#18
So, the big complaint really i see is not the decay, but the fact you take way to much damage in PvP which results in more frequent deaths that lead to decay. I never liked being one shot in the ground game, much less taking three shots and lose in space. The problem is the PvP system.
possible solutions since i rarely ever have my armor scratched, then again i don't PvP either.
1. Bigger Badder Shields. I will never give up my shields for nothin'. they are a top for me. If you waste my shields, then i am not flying very well.
2. You might need to look into getting some custom parts instead of just loot parts only. Your probably loosing a lot of space do to high loot mass. Less massive parts means Bigger Badder Shields.
3. Learn more skills. This has been a big thing for me. I have had less deaths, decay, and lot more fun when my skills did improve since day one of playing JTL. I don't fly flight sims so, first starting out, i sucked like hell.
4. Don't demand for less decay. Demand for a better PvP system where three shots your dead is not the game. That causes way to much in cookie cutter ships to keep yourself alive. No one usesa bomber at all, why? well they are slow and three shots is way to easy to take a heavy armored bomber down. Doesn't make quite as much sense if it takes the equal number of hits for a light fighter. Heavy ships should take many hits and light fighters take few but get hit less frequently.
Eaca
Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:37 pm
#19
Bastilaa wrote:
Eaca wrote:
When you're trying to design your ship around not only being able to maneuver and put out damage, but also to be able to take a few hits in the process, yes after 7 deaths the parts usefulness is greatly reduced. Right now, except for a full hit from a B-wing, firespray, or krayt (which is very hard to do against a tiny oppressor) I can live thru 2 hits, maybe 3 if I'm lucky. If I did this in a normal zone, after 7 deaths, I'd only be able to take 1 maybe 2, 7 more deaths and I'd be getting one shotted again.
Where are you getting the 7 deaths from? the only thing that decays and reduces effectiveness is Armor on Armor and this is very broken. As for part decay on all other parts I see no issues at all, with it taking 43 deaths to fully decay a part, as I know for a fact my composite armor on the ground does not last even close to that long and costs a lot to replace.
I want to understand your issue but I'm not sure what your problem is. In order for a part to suffer decay it must take more than x amount of damage (I believe) I have died and some parts have not taken a single hit and have not taken any decay. An exmaple of the decay on say a weapon is below, maybe we are in different pages but I'm a little lost
700 Armor
700 HP
1st Death (10% of 700)
630 Armor
630 HP
2nd Death (10% of 630)
567 Armor
567 HP
Now Armor on Armor is broken again I agree on this but decay on other parts does not reduce the effectiveness of those parts no matter how many times you die until they fully decay (43 deaths).
7th death (53% of 700)
334 Armor
334 HP
That component now provides less than half of the protection against death than it used to
14 deaths
160 Armor
160 HP
The component now provides one quarter the protection against death that it used to.
Once shields are down the remaining damage is first applied to a component, chosen at random unless the other player targeted the reactor or engine specifically. Assuming I'm being shot at by a borstel disruptor on an a-wing using WO3, I'm looking at an average damage per shot of around 4000 to armor and shields. My shields are RE'd reward shields at 2550 front/back, first shot takes my shields down completely with 1450 damage still to go. My armor is 1100 so that reduces the damage to 350. Lets assume he's targeting my engine for a quick kill and I just got an engine RE'd and its at the first death with 700 A/HP like your first example. The a-wing takes the 350 out of my engines armor, leaving me at a 350 A/700 HP engine, still in the fight
7deathslater same thing happens, I keep my armor in good condition so it's still at 1100 A/HP, however it's the same engine now at 334 A/HP, the same hit takes my engine armor down completely and does 16 damage to the engine HP, reducing its efficiency by half a percent, I'm still in the fight.
7 deaths after that, engine is down to 160 A/HP, the same shot now completely disables my engine, taking me out of the fight forcing me to eject or wait for him to come around to finish me off.
Instead of being able to shrug of the hit, I am, on average, oneshotted.
The above is why decay of armor and HP on death is an unacceptable form of decay. I don't have to buy a new set of composite armor every 14 times I die, if it gets low I can repair it back up a few times, and it's likely to last quite a while anyway. In space, 7 deaths and I'm down to half HAM, and highly reduced effectiveness (effectiveness being measured in my ability to stay alive long enough to kill them before they kill me), 14 deaths and my ship is starting to get quite fragile. Not 43, 7 to half, 14 to unacceptable.
Eaca
Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:14 pm
#20
Kalano wrote:
So, the big complaint really i see is not the decay, but the fact you take way to much damage in PvP which results in more frequent deaths that lead to decay. I never liked being one shot in the ground game, much less taking three shots and lose in space. The problem is the PvP system.
possible solutions since i rarely ever have my armor scratched, then again i don't PvP either.
1. Bigger Badder Shields. I will never give up my shields for nothin'. they are a top for me. If you waste my shields, then i am not flying very well.
2. You might need to look into getting some custom parts instead of just loot parts only. Your probably loosing a lot of space do to high loot mass. Less massive parts means Bigger Badder Shields.
3. Learn more skills. This has been a big thing for me. I have had less deaths, decay, and lot more fun when my skills did improve since day one of playing JTL. I don't fly flight sims so, first starting out, i sucked like hell.
4. Don't demand for less decay. Demand for a better PvP system where three shots your dead is not the game. That causes way to much in cookie cutter ships to keep yourself alive. No one usesa bomber at all, why? well they are slow and three shots is way to easy to take a heavy armored bomber down. Doesn't make quite as much sense if it takes the equal number of hits for a light fighter. Heavy ships should take many hits and light fighters take few but get hit less frequently.
Fist off you don't know me at all so don't go presuming I'm just another whiney pilot
1) If I hit you your shields are gone, and you're probably dead anyway, I do a LOT of damage, my min damage (with bugged WO3) is enough to do a one shot chassis kill for anything but a heavily armored nova cruiser/YT
2) My ship is enirely RE'd. Took 58 above average parts to get my ship where it is. Heck I fly around with spare mass waiting for a few other parts that are even sicker (but slightly higher mass) to get finished. I've been thru crafted stuff, I used it entirely except for engines/boosters/capacitors when my ship was new, upgrading to RE parts as I got things where I wanted them
3) Wish you were on my server, I'd tear you up. My record for 1v1 is almost undefeated, my record for 2v1 and 3v1 is about 50/50, meaning if I go up against more than one pilot, not that I have one kill against them for every kill they get against me, it's half the time one of them gets me (and I generally get one or two of them), the other half of the time, I take all of them out.
4) I don't demand less decay, I demand decay that isn't stupid. It's not reasonable for you all to expect for space PvPers to buy a new ship one a week, or once every few days, just to keep thier ships from being one shotted.
Alternatives for current decay include
- 3rd condition stat, which decays instead of armor and HP at a more reasonable rate, much like ground based armor and weapons
- Give shipwrights SW only usable refurbishment tools, that can take banged up parts and restore a lot of thier lost armor and HP rating
- A combination of the above. You lose armor and HP during fighting, but you can take it to a SW and have them refurb it, losing condition but restoring armor and HP back to max
Seems to me what most of you want, instead of the refreshingly different service style profession the devs have given you, you just want to stock your vendor and go about your merry way. Personally I'm one of the top repeat customers for THREE different shipwrights on my server. And I rarely touch thier vendors. They provide me custom services, including many custom orders in the past for various different parts so I could test the effectiveness of different combinations, as well as many RE jobs, which I pay 10k per level for. There has to be a ballance on how to make both pilot and SW professions fun, admitedly with decay free repairs in DS it's on the side of the pilots right now, however the old decay system just isn't fun for us.
Arryth
Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:20 am
#21
Frankly.. Space decay should not be reintroduced for pvp. Instead.. a system should be made where shipwrights can make better and better chassies over time.. So people will WANT to buy new ones, rathor then being FORCED.. to buy new ones.. and prices MUST come down.. they are still insane, at least on Naritus (except from two shipwrights I know). Missiles must be made better and cheaper so people will use them alot.. thats a great recurring product for shipwrights.. that and armor. I would give shipwrights missiles, armor, engines, boosters, and chassies.. as being made better or only by shipwrights.. the rest I would have the good possibility of uberloot being better... else why bother haveing loot? The fun of loot is that it can be better then store bought stuff..
Chiwawa
Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:55 am
#22
Arryth wrote:
Frankly.. Space decay should not be reintroduced for pvp. Instead.. a system should be made where shipwrights can make better and better chassies over time.. So people will WANT to buy new ones, rathor then being FORCED.. to buy new ones.. and prices MUST come down.. they are still insane, at least on Naritus (except from two shipwrights I know). Missiles must be made better and cheaper so people will use them alot.. thats a great recurring product for shipwrights.. that and armor. I would give shipwrights missiles, armor, engines, boosters, and chassies.. as being made better or only by shipwrights.. the rest I would have the good possibility of uberloot being better... else why bother haveing loot? The fun of loot is that it can be better then store bought stuff..
There is no decay in deep space, I think the idea there is that mass PvP can occur without people moaning too much. If you go overt in Kessell that is your own look out (I do it all the time for FP farming, and to kill the odd hapless imperial I run into).
How would you propose making better and better chassis over time? What happens when you are just starting out, and others are a year ahead of you? How do you keep balance in a system where mass (the only thing that really can be improoved on) constantly goes up....?
How are shipwrights supposed to lower thier prices given the current CPU cost of good materials?
How can missiles be made better, apart from going to a better shipwright, who will charge you more, because the materials cost him more. I sell my MkII spacebombs at 17500 credits, they cost me 15000 to make (ammo 4, maxdam 25.5k), I sell out all the time, so people must be using them...
Where in the ground game do you see uber ready made weapons and armor dropping? Answer: You dont, amazing weapons and armour are hard to come by, and in all cases involve the use of a crafter to make the item from special drops. Space should be no different, it's not like you cannot earn cash from being up there after all...
Arryth
Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:09 am
#23
The mass issue can be tweaked and toyed with... as for resourses... farm your own.. A shipwright is NOT a beginers profession. Space is NOT ground so dont confuse the two. Money is much easier to earn on the ground. Space payouts are very low. Missile damage sould be increased by 40-60% at least for regular missiles.. 30% for space bombs. And if you have never seen uber loot weapons NOT made by crafters, then you have not spent enough time hunting night sisters...
All my very best melee weapons are looted from nightsisters, not bought from crafters.
Fact: decay runis the fun for most pilots
Fact: ship parts are too expensive for the average player
If shipwrights cant handle running the buisness at reasonable prices, and excepting some uberloot, then it would be better for the jtls "community" as a whole to have an entirely loot based space system.
All my very best melee weapons are looted from nightsisters, not bought from crafters.
Fact: decay runis the fun for most pilots
Fact: ship parts are too expensive for the average player
If shipwrights cant handle running the buisness at reasonable prices, and excepting some uberloot, then it would be better for the jtls "community" as a whole to have an entirely loot based space system.
Taalin
Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:06 am
#24
It seems to me that the decay system just isn't working properly. Either the HP stat line is completely pointless or decay is affecting the Armor rating when it shouldn't be. I'm just now figuring out how the decay system works and I would have thought that a component's HP would decay first and then the Armor would start decaying at a certain point (say at a certain level of HP left).
The 10% hit directly to Armor AND HP can be a huge chunk all at once. Although I'm all for component decay at a reasonable rate, the pilot side of me cringes when I start thinking how fast I'm going through good comps. One solution would obviously be to cut the 10% to a lower level, but the best solution would be to decay HP by 10% to a certain level at which point, the 10% decay starts eating the effective Armor rating.
Here's a question though. When is the decay actually applied? Does it happen as soon as my comp takes damage or as soon as I repair?
Chiwawa
Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:25 am
#25
Arryth wrote:
The mass issue can be tweaked and toyed with... as for resourses... farm your own.. A shipwright is NOT a beginers profession. Space is NOT ground so dont confuse the two. Money is much easier to earn on the ground. Space payouts are very low. Missile damage sould be increased by 40-60% at least for regular missiles.. 30% for space bombs. And if you have never seen uber loot weapons NOT made by crafters, then you have not spent enough time hunting night sisters...
All my very best melee weapons are looted from nightsisters, not bought from crafters.
Fact: decay runis the fun for most pilots
Fact: ship parts are too expensive for the average player
If shipwrights cant handle running the buisness at reasonable prices, and excepting some uberloot, then it would be better for the jtls "community" as a whole to have an entirely loot based space system.
Sorry I disagree, most shipwrights DO run their businesses at reasonable rates, if you find someone selling something too expensive then go to another shipwright, better still find a good one and stick with them.
As for the best items being looted, well I have to agree at least in part there, the fact remains that in getting that uber weapon, you WILL get decay on your existing weapon, and your armor. Thats just how it works in a player crafted system. In my opinion there should b loot enhancment drops that are rare, and you can take them to your local shipwright to get them turned into something uber.
/rant on
Sorry to sound harsh here but I for one am getting sick and tired of seeing our profession knocked for having unreasonable prices, when most of us charge anywhere between 3-20 cpu on our crafted items, which as far as I can tell is one of the lowest rates of any crafting profession in the game, and we do not have factory support (and nor do I want it).
Bear in mind that we consume FAR more resources than any other crafting profession, charge FAR less on a CPU basis than any other profession, and we STILL are being knocked for our prices!!!! Do you think that is fair or any incentive for us to want to continue?
Should we shipwrights farm all our own resources, and therby limit our available stock just to offer you, the players, cheaper parts? Sorry but no, I think my customers expect me to have stock and are prepared to pay the premium they know I must charge them to do so.
If you want to point the finger of blame at anyone for prices being as they are, blame the miners, they are turning an average 10-12x profit on harvested materials, far more than I (or most other shipwrights) make on crafted parts.
/rant off
I DO farm my own resources, but the simple fact is that you cannot mine enough to support a popular business, so you must therefore buy in. I make it a rule never to pay more than 6pcu for resources, which I regard as a fair price for currently available stuff. I know that uber previous resources go for a lot more.
As for money on the ground being easier to come by than in space, I gotta disagree there. Now the group cash nerf has come in, your better off in space farming T1-2 ships. I can loot 50 items in less than 45 mins, net worth at LEAST 45k, average 70k, plus the credit chips which would amount to about 20k in that period. That's around 100k an hour. Fact is that everyone can sell their spaceloot off at at least 2k per level so it is more like 150k per hour.
Arryth
Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:51 am
#26
Sorry Chiwawa but your wrong. The mission on the ground still hit 14k, I can do two in 5 min... thats 28k every 5 min. Thats 308,000 per hour. Not fun but its still vastly more then space by a margin of at least 3 to one assumeing best case senario in space. Space profits are closer to 50k an hour tops. The old decay system for pvp was just stupid... Assuming im smart with it, I can make a suit of armor last easily a month or more... a frequent space pvper could easily have a ship ruined in a single day. If they were useing an x-wing.. it would take 8 solid hours grinding in space to replace just the ship.. thats not counting parts... more like 16 hours of solid grinding to be ready to pvp again.. 400k for ship, 400k for the parts.(very low estimate... on naritus its closer to 800k for the parts).
Sorry, but no way.. its not worth it. The MAJORITY of jtls customers seem to like uber loot, and it is them that must be thaught of first. Not profiteer crafters. Crafting is hard, crafting at a low price is harder. So we either need a all loot system or resourse requirements for ships and components needs to drop. Decay was removed.. and its not comeing back.
Sorry, but no way.. its not worth it. The MAJORITY of jtls customers seem to like uber loot, and it is them that must be thaught of first. Not profiteer crafters. Crafting is hard, crafting at a low price is harder. So we either need a all loot system or resourse requirements for ships and components needs to drop. Decay was removed.. and its not comeing back.