Shipwright Archive
Thread: Request: a PYR subcomponent
CommTampers wrote:
Thunderbyte wrote:
RagNoRock5x wrote:
Ok lets take a Mark V Engine with overdriver that gives +15 to speed or so,
Speed -119
PRY -60
With the new sub components that reduces top speed but increases PRY
Speed - 90
PRY -80
Id buy that.
(right now can make a Dodger mark v engine with an overdriver to have a speed of about 99 or 101 or something with a PY of 70)
This new component would make great maneverability engines at the sacrifice of speed. You gain some where you loose some where. And energy drain phooy, with RO4 and a deciently Player made or looted reactor you dont have to wory about energy.
Why don't you just go out and loot some level 10 engines and RE them, wouldn't be very difficult to get these kinds of stats. Oh wait a minute, I forgot that alot of you crafters want to mass produce what should normally be considered elite components. Yeah, why don't you guys just stop flying altogether, because if the devs gave the best of everything to crafters then there would be no reason to collect loot in space.
Think about it for a minute....what is there in space now other than ship parts that's worth collecting?A black sun ace helmet, and some quest missions that give you ground loot. Of that, the quests can only be done once, and for most people the black sun ace helmet is just too much effort for something you can only wear if you're of the right species. Knowing this the devs have given us promises of more space content, and for those of us who's characters practically live in space : a means to make our ships better by doing what we love to do : looting (andthen reverse engineering).
If all of you "pure crafters" (not aiming this at anyone in particular)had it your way then the best components would be crafted and mass producable so you could make hundreds of them while you're logged out of the game. And when asked why I'm sure most would claim that it was for the "player based economy" that supposedly everyone was promised by the devs. Well I'm a player too, and I craft and I fly and I loot, and the best components in my ship were gotten by doing all 3 of those things, so as far as I'm concerned the process of reverse engineering is no different than crafting, and we already have a great way of creating engines with great pyr at the cost of speed. The only difference is you cannot mass produce them, but the benefit of that is that "elite" parts are just that...elite. And of course our pilots actually have a reason to stay in space once they've finished all the quests.
I don't mean to down anyone for thier ideas here, as like everyone else I find myself thinking "wouldn't this/that be great", I just happen to disagree with this suggestion. There's nothing wrong with saying that engines in general need higher PYR's, or something like that. But the real message behind this thread seems to be that crafters want their products to have the benefits that reverse engineered components have, at the same stat costs (I.E. lower speed), but want them mass producable and without having to go into space to find the best components. The idea would make reverse engineering obsolete (at least with engines), and no doubt would give people less reason to even go into space.
Translated = Keep my uber engine rare. MINE....MY OWN....MY PRECIOUS
Have to agree with CommTampers on this one. I think a Shipwright should be able to craft anything that can be looted. There was a time when the devs would have never thought of doing something like this. They always told us that they would never introduce loot that would hurt crafters and the player economy.
Personally, I always speculated that looted components were introduced in order to facilitate the fast bootstrapping of the player community in the space aspect of the game. RE'ing merely served as an incentive to support this notion. RE'ing was nothing but a distraction to divert the attention away from this fact. Looted components = players don't pay for it = fast bootstrapping of the space game. Plain and simple. In fact, Shipwright was going to be a basic profession and it led to an elite profession called Starfighter Engineering. RE'ing was originally more complex. However, at the last minute they collapsed all it into one profession depending on the Engineering IV, and RE'ing became simple and unsophisticated. As a result, to maintain the incentive, they introduced the Firespray disk drop.
I argued for a long time that looted components were killing Shipwrights, and it took many nerfs to bring them in line (and the recent changes to experimentation). However, I think a bit more tweaking would be nice. Commtampers idea of a YPR boost subcomponent would be a big help in this area.
CommTampers wrote:
Thunderbyte wrote:
RagNoRock5x wrote:
Ok lets take a Mark V Engine with overdriver that gives +15 to speed or so,
Speed -119
PRY -60
With the new sub components that reduces top speed but increases PRY
Speed - 90
PRY -80
Id buy that.
(right now can make a Dodger mark v engine with an overdriver to have a speed of about 99 or 101 or something with a PY of 70)
This new component would make great maneverability engines at the sacrifice of speed. You gain some where you loose some where. And energy drain phooy, with RO4 and a deciently Player made or looted reactor you dont have to wory about energy.
Why don't you just go out and loot some level 10 engines and RE them, wouldn't be very difficult to get these kinds of stats. Oh wait a minute, I forgot that alot of you crafters want to mass produce what should normally be considered elite components. Yeah, why don't you guys just stop flying altogether, because if the devs gave the best of everything to crafters then there would be no reason to collect loot in space.
Think about it for a minute....what is there in space now other than ship parts that's worth collecting?A black sun ace helmet, and some quest missions that give you ground loot. Of that, the quests can only be done once, and for most people the black sun ace helmet is just too much effort for something you can only wear if you're of the right species. Knowing this the devs have given us promises of more space content, and for those of us who's characters practically live in space : a means to make our ships better by doing what we love to do : looting (andthen reverse engineering).
If all of you "pure crafters" (not aiming this at anyone in particular)had it your way then the best components would be crafted and mass producable so you could make hundreds of them while you're logged out of the game. And when asked why I'm sure most would claim that it was for the "player based economy" that supposedly everyone was promised by the devs. Well I'm a player too, and I craft and I fly and I loot, and the best components in my ship were gotten by doing all 3 of those things, so as far as I'm concerned the process of reverse engineering is no different than crafting, and we already have a great way of creating engines with great pyr at the cost of speed. The only difference is you cannot mass produce them, but the benefit of that is that "elite" parts are just that...elite. And of course our pilots actually have a reason to stay in space once they've finished all the quests.
I don't mean to down anyone for thier ideas here, as like everyone else I find myself thinking "wouldn't this/that be great", I just happen to disagree with this suggestion. There's nothing wrong with saying that engines in general need higher PYR's, or something like that. But the real message behind this thread seems to be that crafters want their products to have the benefits that reverse engineered components have, at the same stat costs (I.E. lower speed), but want them mass producable and without having to go into space to find the best components. The idea would make reverse engineering obsolete (at least with engines), and no doubt would give people less reason to even go into space.
Translated = Keep my uber engine rare. MINE....MY OWN....MY PRECIOUS
Sorry, works both ways here.
CommTampers wrote:
Oh, you wanna talk "work!" To you, work must mean shooting a few trandos and sprinting through a cave, devoiding all the dedicated work that crafters perform to bring out the best in crafted equipment. This includes scouring the galaxy for good spawns, financing their extraction, and spending long boring hours camped in front of some asteroid. To me, your wimpy ground combat is NOT work, but an imbalance to JTL. Any JTL equipment that is unmatchable by crafting should drop solly in space. ***points finger at clone relic quests*** Even with the stuff, like L10 engines, which do (rarely) drop in space, they should be more directly predictable, not aquired by luck in nightly farming.
There has to be a balance between loot and crafting, and in space there is. I sell plenty of components, and chassis? well that market crashed even before ROTW, but I still sell a few.
First point, Yes, crafting takes work and dedication, I am a cratfter, I know all about it. Doesn't mean loot should not be good or beter too. Personally I would like to see crafting parts drops...but RE is PART of the crafting game.
Second point, JTL is part of SWG, the quest are going to be and should be linked to ground AND space, it should be more and more cohesive, and I will support that the whole way. Ground combat and quests SHOULD be part of JTL stuff. It is called grouping, teamwork and economy. That is the common probplem in this game, everyone wants to be able to get and do everything independantly, that is not what an MMO is about.
I do agree that the loot in space should be somewhat more predictable, looting level 3 capacitors off tier 4 and 5's is kinda lame.
Message Edited by Alyxian on 07-11-2005 01:22 AM
Since people are talking abot subcomponents I hope this isn't too far off topic.
What I'd like is for subcomponents to be like skill-enhancement items, added on afterwards. That way vendors can be stocked with basic parts and upgrades and then people can pick and chose what they like and "attach them" themselves. Another idea it to also make them like powerups and have an option to remove them so a different one can be applied.
This is just an idea I've had for a while and wasn't sure if it deserved its own thread. Let me know what you guys think.
CommTampers wrote:
Translated = Keep my uber engine rare. MINE....MY OWN....MY PRECIOUS
Correction: Translated = Keep my uber engine rare, I spent all my time sat at a computer looting items from space for 6 months solidbecause I have no life, now I get to p0wn anyone else who trys to fight me, so it was worth it.If you make it so engines like mine are commonso that people who do have lives can compete with me then why did I waste the last 6 months getting these engines when I could have been out having a social life?
Oh by the way I would love to be able to buy an engine from a Shipwright with Speed: 100 and P/Y/R: 75-80. I am quite sure a lot of people avoid space because of 2 reasons:
a) They think that to have a decent ship and have a chance in PvP they have to loot everything, most people still think that Shipwright components are inferior and expensive.
b) People hate the decay. They just spent ages getting the rare engine parts to RE and now they PvP and the parts decay, so what was the point in getting them in the first place? However if shipwright can make them then all parts become disposable and thus people will not worry about decay.
I know I would PvP a lot more if I did not have to wory about my Starmap engine decaying.
Yeah, I do not understand this whole fear of decay. Use it, use it hard, when it is gone, get another, loot, beg, borrow, steal, *gasp* remaster a Neutral pilot for a Hoar Chall, whatever....I use all my good stuff for PvE and PvP in any system. If it dies, oh well, I have to use something else.
DavidHarper wrote:
Oh by the way I would love to be able to buy an engine from a Shipwright with Speed: 100 and P/Y/R: 75-80. I am quite sure a lot of people avoid space because of 2 reasons:
a) They think that to have a decent ship and have a chance in PvP they have to loot everything, most people still think that Shipwright components are inferior and expensive.
b) People hate the decay. They just spent ages getting the rare engine parts to RE and now they PvP and the parts decay, so what was the point in getting them in the first place? However if shipwright can make them then all parts become disposable and thus people will not worry about decay.
I know I would PvP a lot more if I did not have to wory about my Starmap engine decaying.
CommTampers wrote:
So much hate directed at a request to have a set of stats treated like core stats and be upgradeable. So much hate.....
I do not see where you are getting hate from? I am just providing the other side of the discussion.
Alyxian wrote:
CommTampers wrote:
So much hate directed at a request to have a set of stats treated like core stats and be upgradeable. So much hate.....
I do not see where you are getting hate from? I am just providing the other side of the discussion.
Well, if you put it that way, I can't really deny the player of "devil's advocate," as I've played that role in other topics. Touche.
DavidHarper wrote:
CommTampers wrote:
Translated = Keep my uber engine rare. MINE....MY OWN....MY PRECIOUS
Correction: Translated = Keep my uber engine rare, I spent all my time sat at a computer looting items from space for 6 months solidbecause I have no life, now I get to p0wn anyone else who trys to fight me, so it was worth it.If you make it so engines like mine are commonso that people who do have lives can compete with me then why did I waste the last 6 months getting these engines when I could have been out having a social life?
Ouch man....lol, guessing you woke up on the wrong side of the bed or something. I must inform you that you have no idea what you're talking about. For one thing, although I am a regular player (meaning I play regularly) I am not without my own responsibilities outside of the game, which involves work, friends, my fiance, and a puppy (who takes up the most time lately). I don't have time to camp for parts, but when I am online I don't waste it either. I do have projects in-game that have taken me months to collect for, but I know I am not alone when it comes to that.
There are crafters in-game that hoard resources nearly 2 years old now, and most people don't complain about that. The end-game for some players is the ability to say that thier parts/products rank in the top as far as quality and usefullness, and it doesn't matter if it took them months or days to get them. In the debate of crafted vs.reverse engineered it has always been my argument that crafted components have thier place in the system, they are by no means useless, and any pilot who knows how to equip his starship could tell you that. I myself use plenty of crafted components, and pay top price for them too (if I didn't craft them myself).
I am also a big fan of reverse engineering, and if you had read my post before you'd understand why I made my argument. If you make crafted components as good or better than reverse engineered components (and I don't mean loot, I mean reverse engineered) then you will take away the biggest reason that some pilots have to go into space once they complete all the quests. I don't see how some of you people can't see how damaging that could be to the game and economy, because a pilot who doesn't want to go to space sure as heck will not be buying parts from a shipwright. And the post I responded to simply said that high ypr engines should come at the cost of lower speed, which I replied is already possible through the process of reverse engineering.
*edit - Last line was not needed 
Message Edited by Thunderbyte on 07-12-2005 07:27 AM
Thunderbyte wrote:
DavidHarper wrote:
CommTampers wrote:
Translated = Keep my uber engine rare. MINE....MY OWN....MY PRECIOUS
Correction: Translated = Keep my uber engine rare, I spent all my time sat at a computer looting items from space for 6 months solidbecause I have no life, now I get to p0wn anyone else who trys to fight me, so it was worth it.If you make it so engines like mine are commonso that people who do have lives can compete with me then why did I waste the last 6 months getting these engines when I could have been out having a social life?
Ouch man....lol, guessing you woke up on the wrong side of the bed or something. I must inform you that you have no idea what you're talking about. For one thing, although I am a regular player (meaning I play regularly) I am not without my own responsibilities outside of the game, which involves work, friends, my fiance, and a puppy (who takes up the most time lately). I don't have time to camp for parts, but when I am online I don't waste it either. I do have projects in-game that have taken me months to collect for, but I know I am not alone when it comes to that.
There are crafters in-game that hoard resources nearly 2 years old now, and most people don't complain about that. The end-game for some players is the ability to say that thier parts/products rank in the top as far as quality and usefullness, and it doesn't matter if it took them months or days to get them. In the debate of crafted vs.reverse engineered it has always been my argument that crafted components have thier place in the system, they are by no means useless, and any pilot who knows how to equip his starship could tell you that. I myself use plenty of crafted components, and pay top price for them too (if I didn't craft them myself).
I am also a big fan of reverse engineering, and if you had read my post before you'd understand why I made my argument. If you make crafted components as good or better than reverse engineered components (and I don't mean loot, I mean reverse engineered) then you will take away the biggest reason that some pilots have to go into space once they complete all the quests. I don't see how some of you people can't see how damaging that could be to the game and economy, because a pilot who doesn't want to go to space sure as heck will not be buying parts from a shipwright. And the post I responded to simply said that high ypr engines should come at the cost of lower speed, which I replied is already possible through the process of reverse engineering.
Next time try reading the whole post before making yourself look stupid.
Meh... Sorry I guess it was uncalled for butsome arogent peopleon these boards have been really anoying me, they justflame anyone who doesn't have the same level of knowledge as them and treat them like idiots, when instead they could try to be helpfull and inform people.
Anyways whilst I think some lootcomponents should be superior to crafted ones, I do not think engines should be one of them because they are far to vital in both PvE and PvP, whilst I wouldn't mind losing an "uber" RE gun, losing an "uber"RE engine would reallyhit me hard.
The best engines need to be accesible by everyone and need to be disposable so that people do not have to wory about losing them due to decay. I know that in combat my main concern is how good my engines are, all other components come second to that and if I have to spend 6 months to get a good engine and then lose it in a few deaths well I am not really gonna want to use it.
Also I hate thinking "Oh the only reason why I lost that fight is because he had better Speed andP/Y/R than me" losing because he had bigger guns than me is ok, losing because my craft stood no chance of out manouvering him is anoying, if we had the same Speed/P/Y/R and he kills methen I congratulate him on being the better pilot as he was able to land the shots on me in an equal engagement.
Ok, first of all : to DavidHarper :
I edited my last post in this thread, I didn't mean to get carried away and the last line wasn't neccessary. And thanks for the response, it can be really easy sometimes to get frustrated on these boards, and this topic is one that get's people excited on both sides. It takes alot of effort to make a post here and not sound like you're some teenager with nothing better to do than play games and flame people on the forums .
Next :
AhrienTerrik wrote:
First of all, SWG has always supposed to be a game with a player-driven economy. I am not agains ubber loot, and ubber loot should be better than crafted, but ubber loot means UBBER loot, like something only 5% of the pilots have, not everybody.
We got shafted with the Chassis dealer buying loot (I'd love to see a "Pearl collector" NPC buying pearls for 20M, people would understand what is to be forced to compete with the bank account of the Chassis dealers) and then again with space station buying space resources (a "Resources buyer" NPC that buys any resource for 10cpu would cause quite a stir too). I don't think we SW are asking too much when we say we want to improve the PYR of our components to something that can compare to the PYR of fairly frequent engine loots.
On the other hand, I bet I spent more time collecting resources, chasing CAs and earning the cash to buy what I can't get myself to be able to craft good engines than most of the Pilots that "spent time in space to loot a good engine".
Getting back to the PYR subcomponent discussion, another option would be combine all PYR stats in the same experimentation line. That way with 15 experimentation points we could max the 3 PYR stats and still have some points left for improving speed.
Message Edited by AhrienTerrik on 07-12-2005 12:47 AM
I see several different arguments here that have been ongoing in this forum since JTL launched. Funny enough, I've commented on almost all of them before. Your suggestion on combining PYR experimentation has been suggested before, but what noone here has done is really said why crafted engines need a higher PYR, at least not without saying "But RE engines can have better PYR". I've crafted and flown everything I could get my hands on in this game, and there is nothing PvE'wise that I can't do with a crafted engine, and do it well. In PvP, I can beat lesser pilots with my crafted engines. With equal pilots, it comes down to combat styles and ship performance, and in a dogfight PYR > Speed.
So the inevitable argument is "But I should be able to craft the engine that the players need for PvP". Hehe, and I argue that you already do. What most people don't think about is that reverse engineering is just a variation of crafting with slightly differents costs and benefits. The benefit is that it's much simpler to determine what the end product will be, because you get the best stats plus a bonus for the level. The cost is that you cannot mass produce it like you can a normally crafted component.
But the requirements are basically the same. For crafted components a player must locate and harvest resources, and for reverse engineering a player must go out and obtain components. For the best results you may be talking about months of work on both cases. For both sides the results become interesting. For crafting you get something that is mass producable and can be used for all of PvE, and some PvP. For REing, you get a product that can be used in PvP very well, can be used in PvE (but will not be as fast as crafted), but because it cannot be mass produced you must be carefull not to let it decay too much.
In both examples you are talking about a whole lot of work for players, more so for reverse engineering. So I'd say that when you look at the time-sinks for quality RE'd components vs. crafted, RE'd components compliment a "player based economy" more than crafted. This is especially true for engines because there aren't too many engines out there that are better than crafted engines before being RE'd.
Message Edited by Thunderbyte on 07-12-2005 08:30 AM