Shipwright Archive
Thread: Request: a PYR subcomponent
Thunderbyte wrote:
Your suggestion on combining PYR experimentation has been suggested before, but what noone here has done is really said why crafted engines need a higher PYR, at least not without saying "But RE engines can have better PYR".
"Why?" do you say? Well, I can ask you "Why not?". As a SW I strive to be able to craft the best engines I can, and being able to craft engines with better PYR at the cost of speed (the fabled PYR subcomponent) would be an improvement. And, more important, a balanced one.
As a SW I don't really ask for an engine with the same speed I can actually craft and higher PYR (THAT would be unbalancing), but to be able to craft a engine that has the best of one realm. Maybe the combining the PYR in a single experimentation line would be more unbalancing than the PYR subcomponent, and I never said what number would be "right".
I don't think SW should be able to craft a 120 speed 80 PYR engine, but I can craft a 120 (rounded) speed 62 PYR engine, and I think a 95 speed 75 PYR engine would be in the same balance level. And I could craft the engine to my customer's taste.
I don't think any of us is asking to be able to craft unbalanced engines, just to have the choice. Nobody complains about we crafting high speed engines, so why would anyone complain about we crafting high-PYR engines?
You're right about the fact that player-driven economy is not the same that crafter-driven economy, and that REing is in some way a kind of crafting. But then, why shouldn't we be able to get the same results, with crafted or REd loot? We agree that both ways take time and dedication.
Message Edited by AhrienTerrik on 07-12-2005 07:18 AM
CommTampers wrote:
I'l like to re-establish the importance of this thread. We need to be able to match loot. That's right, I found an unREd L10engine by loot with 74 across the board for PYR. Neither the Mark V nor the(gimped) Elite can even come close to this value across the board. Imagine the gap once that engine hits the RE.
And once again another post that adds nothing to the argument. So you have a looted engine with high PYR, but what are the other stats? Would I bother using this engine as-is, or would I want to RE it first? If it's not better than crafted engines as-is with no help from a shipwright, then I argue this adds nothing to this topic.
AhrienTerrik wrote:
"Why?" do you say? Well, I can ask you "Why not?". As a SW I strive to be able to craft the best engines I can, and being able to craft engines with better PYR at the cost of speed (the fabled PYR subcomponent) would be an improvement. And, more important, a balanced one.
Thunderbyte wrote:
Your suggestion on combining PYR experimentation has been suggested before, but what noone here has done is really said why crafted engines need a higher PYR, at least not without saying "But RE engines can have better PYR".
As a SW I don't really ask for an engine with the same speed I can actually craft and higher PYR (THAT would be unbalancing), but to be able to craft a engine that has the best of one realm. Maybe the combining the PYR in a single experimentation line would be more unbalancing than the PYR subcomponent, and I never said what number would be "right".
I don't think SW should be able to craft a 120 speed 80 PYR engine, but I can craft a 120 (rounded) speed 62 PYR engine, and I think a 100 speed 72 PYR engine would be in the same balance level. And I could craft the engine to my customer's taste.
I don't think any of us is asking to be able to craft unbalanced engines, just to have the choice. Nobody complains about we crafting high speed engines, so why would anyone complain about we crafting high-PYR engines?
You're right about the fact that player-driven economy is not the same that crafter-driven economy, and that REing is in some way a kind of crafting. But then, why shouldn't we be able to get the same results, with crafted or REd loot? We agree that both ways take time and dedication.
I see your point here, at least I think I do. I won't argue that a PYR sub-component would be imbalancing, but I do argue it is unneccessary. As stated in my earlier post, we already have the ability to build engines with higher PYR at the cost of speed. And to a lesser extent we do have the ability to experiment PYR, even if it isn't as much as people would like.
My argument here has never been one of game balance as much as it's been about the system being fine as it is. Between the process of crafting or reverse engineering players have thier choice on how to outfit ships to fit thier needs. Some ships are more/less balanced than others, but on the topic of engines I believe and have argued that the relationship is complimentary.
I have always felt that a gamesystem should not be changed unless given a reason. The argument of "this is too hard" does not factor with me because I am a gamer, and sometimes I do things because they are harder, and having done them has made me a better player. You say (and I don't mean to flame) that you don't see a reason not to be able to craft the same engines we get through reverse engineering. I've tried to explain it before, and I'll just have to ask you to read my previous posts again. There must be some incentive to loot in space, and we already have it. If it isn't broken, don't fix it.
Lol, I better start posting moreelsewhere or they'll get me for trolling 
IIscandar wrote:
It sounds like a lot of you would like to have a higher target on the ypr scale?
Currently 0% is 54, 100% is 77. With a 25% assembly and 5 experimentation points into each PYR, you end up with a 98.5 speed 67.8 PYR engine. If you do 7 points into pitch and yaw and 1 into roll, you get 71/71/61.4. That is actually not bad, but I think it should be a little better.
I would like to see the Mark V PYR range raised to, say, 57-79. That would net a 70/70/70 or a 73/73/64 PYR engine. The +20 crowd would see 75/75/64. A similar small tweak to the lower tier engines as well. This would make a better crafted engine that would still be not as good as REd. The top speed engines would still have a poor PYR, the low speed ones could have a decent PYR.
We got shafted with the Chassis dealer buying loot (I'd love to see a "Pearl collector" NPC buying pearls for 20M, people would understand what is to be forced to compete with the bank account of the Chassis dealers) and then again with space station buying space resources (a "Resources buyer" NPC that buys any resource for 10cpu would cause quite a stir too). I don't think we SW are asking too much when we say we want to improve the PYR of our components to something that can compare to the PYR of fairly frequent engine loots.
On the other hand, I bet I spent more time collecting resources, chasing CAs and earning the cash to buy what I can't get myself to be able to craft good engines than most of the Pilots that "spent time in space to loot a good engine".
Getting back to the PYR subcomponent discussion, another option would be combine all PYR stats in the same experimentation line. That way with 15 experimentation points we could max the 3 PYR stats and still have some points left for improving speed.
Message Edited by AhrienTerrik on 07-12-2005 12:47 AM
IIscandar wrote:
Pilots love ships and want them to be the best, so fantastic looted components are a big draw. If shipwright could suddenly craft better or equal to some of the re'd engines out there as in the last stat increase, there would be some upset pilots who either collected for months or paid dearly to get that performance.
Message Edited by IIscandar on 07-12-2005 09:34 AM
This triggered something that has been lurking in my subcocious while reading this thread.
One of the things pilots like is the *uniqueness* of thier ships and components. I would be hard pressed to find anyone that has RE'd gear that has identical stats, or even identical goals in mind for the end product. Loot and RE'ing gave us this very well.
If every shipwright could craft the same mass/YPR/Speed tradeoff and eveyone was making the exact same engines because they were the "best" accepted stats, you would see vendors flood with all the same stuff.
There needs to be more to the engine crafting than a YPR subcomp, something to give individuality. This goes with weapons too. We need to open up the weapon effects on crafted weapons.
I just had an idea while reading this thread. I don't know how relevant it is to the topic, but it fits in the flow of this conversation...
When I hear the term "reverse engineering", I picture a shipwright pulling apart components to see what makes them work, and how they've managed to perform well in the various attributes. The data gathered from this analisys can then be used to build parts in the future that work like the pieces reverse engineered.
How about then, the result of an RE combine is a limited use schematic, rather than a new component? Similar to the KSE discs. This way shipwrights would still get to craft the best parts, but the data for that would still come from loot. It gives pilots a reason to fly while not taking away from shipwright's crafting work. The pilot who found the loot parts would get their awesome componant, and the shipwright would still have 2-4 copies of that componant to sell. Not mass production by any means, but still making really good parts a little more accessible.
I'm not exactly sure of the details, or how it would affect other aspects of the game, but its just an idea that rang true to the term "reverse engineering" to me.
Ashaman wrote:
Since people are talking abot subcomponents I hope this isn't too far off topic.
What I'd like is for subcomponents to be like skill-enhancement items, added on afterwards. That way vendors can be stocked with basic parts and upgrades and then people can pick and chose what they like and "attach them" themselves. Another idea it to also make them like powerups and have an option to remove them so a different one can be applied.
This is just an idea I've had for a while and wasn't sure if it deserved its own thread. Let me know what you guys think.
Your basically talking about droid programs here. This is exactly what the droid programs accomplish so to add these types of things in the game would negate droid programs, or if it stacked would just simply be a bit overpowering I think.
jason67 wrote:
Ashaman wrote:
Since people are talking abot subcomponents I hope this isn't too far off topic.
What I'd like is for subcomponents to be like skill-enhancement items, added on afterwards. That way vendors can be stocked with basic parts and upgrades and then people can pick and chose what they like and "attach them" themselves. Another idea it to also make them like powerups and have an option to remove them so a different one can be applied.
This is just an idea I've had for a while and wasn't sure if it deserved its own thread. Let me know what you guys think.
Your basically talking about droid programs here. This is exactly what the droid programs accomplish so to add these types of things in the game would negate droid programs, or if it stacked would just simply be a bit overpowering I think.
I'm not talking about adding something new. i'm talking about changing upgrades to be added on afterward instead of during the initial crafting process. That way customers can pick the upgrades they want afterward. Like most people are limited on mass so they might not want an upgrade of the highest level added in automatticly before they buy a part. Basicly it would be a way save time instead of working on several custom ordres. All you'd have to do is stock the components and the upgrades and let people pick and choose what they want. Granted I haven't done much crafting in a while, I phased out my shipwright buisness because it was taking all my time each day, but before the CU hardly any of my customers even knew upgrades existed.
