Shipwright Archive
Thread: Looking for honest opinions...
styx66 wrote:
sounds very reasonable... will add to the list of issues...
i think missiles will stay too high in price becaue of this...
Well wait a minute, do you really want to proliferate the use of missles like they were a commodity? I talked about some reaons why this would be bad in a previous post.
Setting the missle issue aside, we really need to start looking at the problem, and not symptoms of the problem.
Yes, many (if not all; haven't had enough coffee yet to figure that one out) SW schematics require steel, but is this the real problem?
Yes, a lot of resource vendors have inflated the price of resources being used by SWs, but is this the real problem?
The real problem is that the resource requirements being imposed on ship chassis and components don't scale with the previous system for finding/harvesting these resources. Let's look at this realistically for a moment. Do you think a player with a single account could ever pull off SW? Maybe on a small scale, but he'd never make money.
I personally have two accounts.One account dedicates lots to houses (to store resources) and factories, and the other account dedicates lots to harvesters. This allows me to store about 30-40M units of resources (remember, I need to save some space for vendors, crafting stations, etc.). This is a lot of resources, so I'm not going to gripe about that too much. However, with the lots I can dedicate to harvesters, I have 4 down on steel all the time, 4 down on ore all the time, and 2 free for other things, like gases, other minerals, and special named resources (for upgrades). Assuming I put down heavy harvesters with a BER of 14 on a 90% concentration of a resource, I can pull up a little less than 500K of that resource in any given week. Now, these assumptions are little far fetched, and after four months of harvesting steel for SW, I have pulled up an average of about 250K/week units of steel (and most of this steel is grinding quality).
250K/week of steel average. Is this alot? Not really, I can use this up easily making 7 master ships.
Do I buy it? Ouch, even the grinding quality garbage steel on our server is going for 7-8 CPU.
The real problem revolves around the fact that the devs created a resource harvesting system never intended to handle the strain of a the resource requirements being imposed by SW. I haven't really looked at it yet, but do the resource requirements of SW scale with other professions? Maybe, depends on your POV. A guild hall requires about 50K resources, compared to a master ship's requirements of 150K.
I'm not complaining--I can't, business is good, better than I ever expected. I easily see myself being able to sustain a long-term business being a SW. However, can the system sustain the demands being imposed by JTL? My opinion is "no".
How do you solve the problem? There are two clear alternatives:
1) Change the resource requirements of SW schematics. Are they inline with what's already out there? Did the devs do this on purpose to limit the introduction of master ships?
2) Change the system governing resource harvesting. For example, we've seen discussions on the introduction of a "Miner" profession. Interesting premise, I like it alot.
Slochini wrote:
First off, you have to know who crusaders is to understand his POV. The man wants for NOTHING. He's probably one of the top 3 dominant players on my server so nothing is out of his reach. It truely is a matter of convience for him. Now as to the 2-3k stacks of steel. I can understand that but I do runs of 100-300 paint kits at a time and its 12.5k of steel per 100 paint kits. Volume is where it gets ugly.
/hug beer
your right about that, but also the fact I been A master artisan and weapon smith since 2 week of our server brith and have been every since. So i think i know alittle about crafting things and most people
Steel keeps it simpler and creates an spefic commonidty steel itself. More importantly it offset static harvetsors (server swap lot people ! ) they dont have a choice of mining the highest% ferrous metal ist steel or about nothing at this point. anything that off set lot swappers at this point is a very good thing.
lot swapers are main factoror killing swg economy and no way around that ugly fact, soo yes steel should be used for them
Bermag wrote:Lot swapping don't kill the economy (nothing which involves player-to-player economy kills the economy only SOE money like mission payout). Lot swapping means more resources in game (lower prices), and more money going out of the system since more maintenance is paid).
Two problems with this:
1. Resources are wealth. Not credit wealth, but wealth nonetheless. And in cross-server lot-swaps, it's wealth that's being generated by a character that doesn't then pass the same amount of wealth out of the system that a normally-played character does(since cross-server swap characters only exist for the lots, and typically aren't played except to move harvesters around). that's economically unbalancing, for a system that was designed to work without cross-server interaction. (Missions are still a bigger inflationary problem, but trades are still an issue)
2. I'm sorry, but the lot trading isn't lowering prices. It just isn't. Every lot-trade resource broker I know has more than enough stock, and has still juiced prices 3-5cpu (especially on steel). Not that their costs have gone up or they're in danger of running out of stock or anything... they just know that even with guild support, an active Shipwright isn't going to be able to keep up with resource requirements, so someone *will* buy it eventually.Either we do, or we don't do any business until we have some resources again.
Frankly, I'm not big on ONE particular resource being the major requirement in ever schematic we have. ESPECIALLY a resource that is heavily used by other crafters. Steel is not only a requirement for every schem I can think of, it's also usually the largest amount needed in those schems, and it generally has to all be the same kind of steel. A master-level ship alone takes 60K in one slot and another 10K in the other... and porportions scale across the board pretty much.
I don't have much trouble stocking most of the resources, but steel is a constant pain in the neck. I'd estimate that between chassis, components, factory runs on packs and kits and the like, I've probably soaked up anywhere from 5-10 million units of steel, if not more, since JTL launch. this just seems excessive, considering I'm only running perhaps 100 at a time for my factory stuff and, particularly with missles, having trouble keeping stocked. And that's with elevated prices to help keep the outflow down.
Message Edited by Sevarhin on 11-15-2004 12:45 PM
Slochini wrote:
lol...logic meets economics 101...WOOHOO!!
not even gonna get into econometrics, I'll just say you 2 are clueless and leave it at that.
having a demand on a spefic resource is always good far as over all economy goes. guess will see in afew weeks when things settle now
CapnKate wrote:
Bermag wrote:
Lot swapping don't kill the economy (nothing which involves player-to-player economy kills the economy only SOE money like mission payout). Lot swapping means more resources in game (lower prices), and more money going out of the system since more maintenance is paid).
Two problems with this:
1. Resources are wealth. Not credit wealth, but wealth nonetheless. And in cross-server lot-swaps, it's wealth that's being generated by a character that doesn't then pass the same amount of wealth out of the system that a normally-played character does(since cross-server swap characters only exist for the lots, and typically aren't played except to move harvesters around). that's economically unbalancing, for a system that was designed to work without cross-server interaction. (Missions are still a bigger inflationary problem, but trades are still an issue)
2. I'm sorry, but the lot trading isn't lowering prices. It just isn't. Every lot-trade resource broker I know has more than enough stock, and has still juiced prices 3-5cpu (especially on steel). Not that their costs have gone up or they're in danger of running out of stock or anything... they just know that even with guild support, an active Shipwright isn't going to be able to keep up with resource requirements, so someone *will* buy it eventually.Either we do, or we don't do any business until we have some resources again.
Frankly, I'm not big on ONE particular resource being the major requirement in ever schematic we have. ESPECIALLY a resource that is heavily used by other crafters. Steel is not only a requirement for every schem I can think of, it's also usually the largest amount needed in those schems, and it generally has to all be the same kind of steel. A master-level ship alone takes 60K in one slot and another 10K in the other... and porportions scale across the board pretty much.
I don't have much trouble stocking most of the resources, but steel is a constant pain in the neck. I'd estimate that between chassis, components, factory runs on packs and kits and the like, I've probably soaked up anywhere from 5-10 million units of steel, if not more, since JTL launch. this just seems excessive, considering I'm only running perhaps 100 at a time for my factory stuff and, particularly with missles, having trouble keeping stocked. And that's with elevated prices to help keep the outflow down.
So is that an endorsement??
I agree with this. The way I'd like to see it solved although I doubt it'll ever happen would be to introduce a higher class of harvesters, BER20's (call em 'super-heavy' or whatever) that only shipwrights and architects would be able to be certified to use. That would be a huge help to both professions IMHO.
Jagged-F3l wrote:
The real problem revolves around the fact that the devs created a resource harvesting system never intended to handle the strain of a the resource requirements being imposed by SW. I haven't really looked at it yet, but do the resource requirements of SW scale with other professions? Maybe, depends on your POV. A guild hall requires about 50K resources, compared to a master ship's requirements of 150K.
CapnKate wrote:
lot trading isn't lowering prices. It just isn't. Every lot-trade resource broker I know has more than enough stock, and has still juiced prices 3-5cpu (especially on steel).
TalonKarrdeTN wrote:
I agree with this. The way I'd like to see it solved although I doubt it'll ever happen would be to introduce a higher class of harvesters, BER20's (call em 'super-heavy' or whatever) that only shipwrights and architects would be able to be certified to use. That would be a huge help to both professions IMHO.
Jagged-F3l wrote:
The real problem revolves around the fact that the devs created a resource harvesting system never intended to handle the strain of a the resource requirements being imposed by SW. I haven't really looked at it yet, but do the resource requirements of SW scale with other professions? Maybe, depends on your POV. A guild hall requires about 50K resources, compared to a master ship's requirements of 150K.
Hahaha you guys kill me, you act like SW is the only important profession at the moment.....give me a break, what make syou feel like you are entitled to a better harvestor than anyone else? If you cant handle the resource requirements, then drop the profession.
FreeEnterprise wrote:
TalonKarrdeTN wrote:
I agree with this. The way I'd like to see it solved although I doubt it'll ever happen would be to introduce a higher class of harvesters, BER20's (call em 'super-heavy' or whatever) that only shipwrights and architects would be able to be certified to use. That would be a huge help to both professions IMHO.
Jagged-F3l wrote:
The real problem revolves around the fact that the devs created a resource harvesting system never intended to handle the strain of a the resource requirements being imposed by SW. I haven't really looked at it yet, but do the resource requirements of SW scale with other professions? Maybe, depends on your POV. A guild hall requires about 50K resources, compared to a master ship's requirements of 150K.
Hahaha you guys kill me, you act like SW is the only important profession at the moment.....give me a break, what make syou feel like you are entitled to a better harvestor than anyone else? If you cant handle the resource requirements, then drop the profession.
There's always one in the bunch, someone who feels like any constructive feedback should be met with responses such as, "If you can't handle the blah-blah-blha, then drop the profession." First, these forums are here to provide a communication medium between SOE and players. Second, I'm handling the resource requirements just fine. Third, my post was to communicate, what I believe to be, a long term problem for the game.
FreeEnterprise, if you don't have anything constructive to add, please don't.
On the other hand, it is my opinion that introducing a harvester that only architects and shipwrights would be certified to use would be a big mistake. There are a lot of players that play the role of "miner" without it being an official profession. Some "miners" are very good and very honest too. I frequent a number of vendors that are still selling steel at reasonable prices, as I alone cannot harvest all the steel I need.