Shipwright Archive
Thread: JTL Decay is not fun, here's why, proposed solution
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Eaca
Sun Jan 09, 2005 9:57 pm
#1
I know you all want repeat customers, I know a lot of things about your profession need some lovin, but the current decay model in JTL sucks, here's an exerpt from a post I did on the pilot profession board with a bit of addon for you all.
Space decay sucks. Period. On the ground my 90% composite armor will stay at 90% until its condition gets down to below 50%, then I can get it repaired and still use it at its max efficiency. If the JTL system were effectively implimented on the ground, when I died, my 90% comp would permanently go down to 81%. Actually thats not quite true... If JTL were on the ground, PSG's would be our main line of defense, but our armor and HAM would decay 10% on each death. Cause thats what effectively happens in space, if you die one time, you die easier the next and easier and easier until once your shields are gone, you're dead. Good armor in normal (non deep space) space is about worthless because it becomes below average armor in 2 deaths. Without the no decay rule in deep space, every time I went back to get revenge I would go back in 10% weaker in armor and HP than when I died the last time. That's just not fun to watch a ship I put so much time and effort in decay in front of my eyes faster than I can replace it with good RE parts. Since you get down to less than 50% of your starting HP in about 7 deaths, to keep your ship PvP worthy with crafted components would mean you would have to replace almost EVERYTHING every 7 times you die. You can die that many times in one day if you're having fun (tho it wouldn't be fun replacing a 2mil cred ship daily).
I can't afford to outfit a new ship each time I PvP, not with the current SW prices, and that's if I go to the lowballers!!! Do you honestly think even if they lowered resource requirements and boosted your crafted stats you could keep up with the demand of replacing entire ships every 7 deaths? I know you CAN run around with components with 10 armor/HP (my pre-fix DI has been at that forever) but in PvP you need all the armor and HP you can get out of all your components to keep you alive just a little bit longer, so you die in 2-3 shots instead of 1-2. So to keep a ship PvP worthy would require total replacement of most parts, esp reactors, engines, and chassis every 7 deaths. JTL armor and HPisn't damage reduction, it's our space HAM! Its like asking me to buy a new body every 7 times I die on ground, otherwise I've lost over half of my max available pool points, would that be fun?
The current model of space decay doesn't need to be reduced, it needs to be eliminated to mimic ground condition. How about this:
Every component now gets 3 stats:
Armor HP
HP
Condition
Armor HP and HP work the same as they do now, it's how much damage you can take, but, every time you repair, condition goes down until it gets to say... half, then armor HP and HP start dropping as well. SW's get component refurbishment kits that can be used much like armor and weapon repair kits, in that you can refurb a component, with a chance of destroying it, while lowering its condition. If condition ever reaches 0, the part becomes permanently disabled.
The above would put a sting in death, but not completely ruin the fun that can be had in space, and not require constant part replacements to keep our space HAM from being next to nothing.
KaylBreinhar
Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:30 pm
#2
My armor never decays thanks to Deep Space Repair Service and Auto Body. Just a paltry flat fee of 30,000 prestige points, and my armor and damaged components are good as new.
It doesn't help me when I get my ass shot out from under me, but if you take a gander at my PvP record below, you'll see that doesn't happen that often.
Besides, in both PvP AND PvE, the chassis is the main target - the equipment itself is receiving splash damage.
It doesn't help me when I get my ass shot out from under me, but if you take a gander at my PvP record below, you'll see that doesn't happen that often.
Besides, in both PvP AND PvE, the chassis is the main target - the equipment itself is receiving splash damage.
Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 01-10-2005 01:32 AM
Rogue1970
Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:57 am
#3
I agree with you actually - as a shipwright and a pilot.
I think decay should only effect the HITPOINTS of components and PvP/Deep Space decay should return as it was at launch. If they expect to encourage space PvP, implement an insurance system like onthe ground to limit decay.
Decaying both armor and hitpoints seems stupid to me - why even have hitpoints as a craftable line item or stat? The armor will be gone long before the hipoints are, making the item so vulnerable to attack it's silly to continue using it. It also make the use of 'good armor' almost pointelss due to the high costs.
People using the Deep Space ticket for a free repair are exploiting the system anwyay, as they aren't just using it for Deep Space repairs - but ANY repair after Master.
sbob
Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:03 am
#4
Also your armor comparison is a bit flawed as well. A componet does not work less when it is dammaged except fpr the case of Armor. All the other parts the armor and hp stats are just a condition modifier. The more you repair it the less dammage it can take before it works again. That is all it is just like decay in armor down to the point where the armor starts to be less effective when the condition gets too low. Only component that really becomes less effective is armor. Everything else can be down to 1/1 hp and armor and still work. Just first time your shields and armor down an you sneeze it will break. The thing is even w/o using the deepspace fix and the like you can if play well and smart prevent much of the decay. Good use of shields and if you dont let them get through your armor and to componets can go long time and just repair the armor. Also realize that all those overdrive progs that are run by droids also dammage items. And when you repair them no matter how much dammage that is repaird the item will take a hit to its armor/hp but the rest of the stats to best of my knowledge are not lowered or effected. So if you just let them take armor and move out and do not die get shot to pieces and repair items last long time. Myself when I fly I even let the armor sit dammaged untill gets to below 50% before consider repairs. As long as you have some armor they do not get to your compoents. Once the armor is gone then you start having compoents take armor hits then hp hits.
ExcaliburCH
Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:52 am
#5
Rogue1970 wrote:People using the Deep Space ticket for a free repair are exploiting the system anwyay, as they aren't just using it for Deep Space repairs - but ANY repair after Master.
I wouldn't call that an exploit. I would call it a bad design and not thought to the end. Either the devs don't believe in our inteligence or they believe that we are 100% honest with every aspect of this game. Pick one
cheers
Exi
Eaca
Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:13 am
#6
sbob wrote:
Also your armor comparison is a bit flawed as well. A componet does not work less when it is dammaged except fpr the case of Armor.
Only slightly flawed tho. Do you lose 10% of your HAM every time you die on land? Or does each time you die are you only able to be buffed back up to 90% of what you were last time you died? That's what happens in space, and it's actually far worse than my comparison. Components are there to keep me alive. Both in performing thier function and absorbing damage.If every time I die they lose 10% of thier ability to absorb damage, well then they work less.
DarkRenown
Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:31 am
#8
First off, I can see where you are coming from, and as a Pilot as well, I can see the benefits of yoru system.
However, as a SW, I like the decay as it is. It encourages people to keep coming back to purchase equipment. Especially if you get recognised as a purveyor of quality items, then you will get repeat business.
The reason I say this is..
As a Master DE as well, the biggest problem we face (check the forums to see this is true) is that we sell Droids which NEVER decay. You can purchase a droid, and never have to replace it, the decay is so slow it is ridiculous.
Effectively this means that the only repeat custom you get is for Paint kits, Batteries and the odd repair kit. This is a big bugbear of the majority of DE's (on the fourms anyway).
So, ship decay as it stands it nice. I agree it is a bit severe, but it means that as a SW, I get repeat custom for ALL of my components, not just the repair kits, paint kits, texture kits and ammo.
If you make decay too limited, you remove the SW business, and as the resource requirements are very high (rightly so) for SW components, a lot of SW's may leave the profession, or just specialise in the consumables.
So, yes I can see your argument for the change, but I have to disagree. I think this decay system keeps the market for SW components and ships vibrant and fluid.
Just before anyone shouts, money grabber, I always price my components low, at about 3CPU mainly, sometimes a little higher. This covers my costs and gives me a reasonably amount of profit (after harvester maintenance, etc) to shop to luxuries and skill tapes. I earn on average abotu a million every couple of weeks (maybe even a month), so I will never get as rich as those who can buff up and get that much in running missions, but I am happy.
Eaca
Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:37 am
#9
DarkRenown wrote:
First off, I can see where you are coming from, and as a Pilot as well, I can see the benefits of yoru system.
However, as a SW, I like the decay as it is. It encourages people to keep coming back to purchase equipment. Especially if you get recognised as a purveyor of quality items, then you will get repeat business.
The reason I say this is..
As a Master DE as well, the biggest problem we face (check the forums to see this is true) is that we sell Droids which NEVER decay. You can purchase a droid, and never have to replace it, the decay is so slow it is ridiculous.
Effectively this means that the only repeat custom you get is for Paint kits, Batteries and the odd repair kit. This is a big bugbear of the majority of DE's (on the fourms anyway).
So, ship decay as it stands it nice. I agree it is a bit severe, but it means that as a SW, I get repeat custom for ALL of my components, not just the repair kits, paint kits, texture kits and ammo.
If you make decay too limited, you remove the SW business, and as the resource requirements are very high (rightly so) for SW components, a lot of SW's may leave the profession, or just specialise in the consumables.
So, yes I can see your argument for the change, but I have to disagree. I think this decay system keeps the market for SW components and ships vibrant and fluid.
Just before anyone shouts, money grabber, I always price my components low, at about 3CPU mainly, sometimes a little higher. This covers my costs and gives me a reasonably amount of profit (after harvester maintenance, etc) to shop to luxuries and skill tapes. I earn on average abotu a million every couple of weeks (maybe even a month), so I will never get as rich as those who can buff up and get that much in running missions, but I am happy.
Current decay system is not fun for pilots. Not fun means people won't do it. I will NOT buy a new ship every 7 deaths to be compeditive. Instead, I just won't play at all. So instead of getting you more business, at best it stays the same from people still grinding pilot til they reach master and realize instead of being fun, it's a tremendous money sink, that or they have to worry about dying the instant shields are eliminated. I don't get penalized with being easier to kill every time I die on the ground, why am I in space? I die once on land, learn my lesson, and am more careful next time, in space, I die, I have to be even MORE careful because next time I will die easier, and easier, and easier, until it feels like I'm flying a paper airplane.
Current decay system doesn't get you more customers, it gets you less.
Bacacuba
Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:55 am
#10
Decay as it stands needs to be adjusted. For the benifit of both groups. As it stands now Pilots don't want to replace chassis every 7-10 deaths, and I as a shipwright want to sell a new engine or reactor once in a blue moon too. I can see when spending 150k to over a million credits on a chassis you want it to last a while. That is completely understandable. But you have to understand that there has to be risk when flying in space, be it PvE or PvP. And that risk should always have a decay related element. As it stands now there really is no reason to replace anything short of armor / shields. I sell mostly consumables and a few armor plates now and then. Everyone has their engines, reactors and such that they need and they never die completely through decay. So they just keep using them. And the shipwright never gets any new buisness.
Ideally what needs to happen is that decay needs to be slowed down a bit, but when an item gets to a low point, it stops working. The armor and weapons you use on the ground die if you keep using them indefinately. In space that doesn't typically happen (there are situations where you could completely kill a component, but not as you would armor/weapons on the ground). I'm not saying we need use based decay for components, but something that gives a finite life span is needed.
DarkRenown
Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:16 am
#11
Eaca wrote:
Current decay system doesn't get you more customers, it gets you less.
Sorry Eaca, I should have added something. I do think the current decay is overly harsh. I agree it should be slower, but am happy to keep the current system (as in the way it works, not the speed of decay).
Eaca
Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:30 am
#12
The concept of being weakened every time you die until you shell out several million to completely overhaul your gear doesn't sit well with me, nor with most pilots. On the ground your guns don't get weaker as you shoot them, unless you shoot them too much. Your armor doesn't get weaker as it takes damage until it takes too much damage. In space, even a slight scratch reduces survivability next time.
Envoy3113
Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:36 am
#13
It's really not too bad. I can spend a few hours in kessel, not die, and at the end of it I got tons of loot and a fairly fat credit chip to bank along with it. All that really suffers is my armor, unless I get reckless and tackle a dozen of the turning gunships.
More than enough creds to support the habit. And that doesn't even take into account the faction points.
I keep a mind to shoot before being shot. Oddly enough, lately the only people who have actually gotten the drop on me in space have sent me tells asking for a truce
. Works for me as I was lazy on the radar and tangled with a half dozen ships when I get the tell 'Don't shoot!!! I call truce'.
. Works for me as I was lazy on the radar and tangled with a half dozen ships when I get the tell 'Don't shoot!!! I call truce'.
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