Shipwright Archive
Thread: Shipwright Exp to FS conversion fixed yet?
PetaByte32
Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:48 am
#14
Niacia wrote:
Petabyte,
I seem to be a little dumb here. I do not understand, how a LOW conversion rate affects your playstyle?
I agree force bonuses to the piloting skills would affect everyones palystyle and I am very much opposed to that. But that is a pilot issue, not a shipwright issue.
And yes, the dorce gain would be small, almost not noticeable. You said this yourself. So why would this affect your playstyle?
But it would make all the difference to people like me, because I would still be working toward a goal. For me, it is not about reaching a goal, it is about working towards a goal. This might be a way of thought you are not used to. For me it is actually better, if it takes a long time, because it keeps me occupied for that long time. Even, if it was only myself and no Jedi grinders, I would actually prefer a conversion rate of 100:1 compared to 1:1. Because it takes longer.
And regarding pilot skills. Piloting is twitch based. I experienced the effect of skill boni on a twitch based game in another MMORG. It sucks. It royaly sucks. The game is not fair anymore, and PvP just does not make any sense, if your playstyle is not compatible to these skill boni. For me, giving Jedi boni to piloting would destroy the pilot game. Just plain and simple.
And I do not care, if this fits into continuity. I know Luke is the pilot he is, because of his force sensitivity. But if it is continuity vs. fun, I prefer fun.
Regards
Niacia
This would affect my playstyle as follows. As I said some people that want a shipwright xp conversion want vehicle control in space. So lets say the DEVs give you your xp conversion. Next these guys will use that as an example for why they should get vehicle control. So pretty soon the DEVs give in to these losers. Next the jedi start asking for their own uber pilot tree or special bonuses using the example of non-jedi getting VC. And again the DEVs give in and do what they want. Now my playstyle alters because I cancel my account and move onto a new game. Pretty big alteration.
Dont say the DEVs wont do it either. If these same people actually sat around a meeting table and all decided holocrons were a good idea, then this can and very likely will happen.
So you tell me which is more important? Your 100:1 conversion that would grant you maybe 3k fs xp at a time or jedi not being able to use this as a stepping stone to getting bonuses in space?
Tyranus
fyreblayd28
Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:59 am
#15
PetaByte32 wrote:
Ilorr wrote:
Sssnuggles (or anyone that knows), can you point me to the official statement making that, if you are correct this will put a big Damper in being a shipwright... All crafting skills should be allowed to be converted. If SOE made this call it is the wrong one and needs to be changed.
Thanks
I think the DEVs and SOE were right on themoney with this call. I agree with SOE 100% here. And I very rarely agree with SOE.
It starts with wanting the xp conversion. Then people are going to want vehicle control and other FS bonuses in space. Finally jedi will see this and jump in with their own demands. No the way I see it pilots get thier prof free no reason to give them jack in FS. We have to pay for our prof with sp's.
Before you start to argue that wont happen, already some people that are for the xp conversion are asking for force vehicle control in space. And I have already seen a couple of threads from jedi in the past few days that have requested if players get vehicle control, then they should get their own professiontree or bonuses.
So I am sorry but if not giving you guys xp conversions for shipwright can stop jedi and FS from using it as an excuse to get bonuses then I am all for it. Most people that want xp conversion are saying they want it to be a huge conversion. Like 100:1. Well with that kind of conversion it wouldnt be smart to even try to convert xp. Heck it would be more of an afterthought as your leaving the village after you converted your other xp. "Oh I forgot I got 300k SW xp to convert too. Well I am 3k from the village now. Do it next time I guess."So we are better off not having an xp conversion. In my opinion the ends far then justifies the means.
Tyranus
From my stand point I have:
Master rifleman so I can at least kill what attacks me when I am out on the adventure planets putting down harvesters.
1-0-1-0 Scout so I can get hides and meat and have terrain negotiation.
Now I am working on my Shipwright.
Where do I have the sp to get yet another crafting profession? Where can I get a medical profession? We have to master 6 boxes in the FS trees. I can do 4 easy since I can fight. But medical no way, Crafting I used to craft then left what I was doing now I am a shipwright. Now I have to give that up too? I think it is all messed up the way we have been stripped of our hopes of being a jedi or being a better crafter with the crafting FS trees. Those extra points will help alot.
The Green in the message was not meant as a direct assault on you nor to flame you. Just more people tend to read the highlights in someone else's message hoping for some juicy fights. I used it to my advantage.
PetaByte32
Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:37 am
#16
One big thing that Nacia actually showed me unintentionally. Everyone says that shipwright is a ground profession and cost skill points. That its in no way different from other crafting professions so in fact there is every reason to give the SW a conversion.
However I want to bring some new evidence I have to the conversion and why it should NOT be granted to SWs. Lets take this the long way so I dont have to explain it all in more threads. More then a few people are getting tired of my posts.
First lets look at a regular crafting profession. We will take Weaponsmith as an example. A weaponsmith in full production can trade in his capped xp for fs xp. But most weaponsmiths use factories alot so in fact they actually gain xp slower once master is reached then if they had to hand craft everything. I can already see some people starting to hit the reply button. Wait please.
Now lets look at yet another crafting profession. Architect. Some of what they do is handcrafted but really only on the finally construction in most cases. The parts to build a house, harv, or whatever is done in a factory. So even their xp is limited.
Finally lets look at shipwrights. Of all the professions, 90% of what we craft is handcrafted in regards to xp gains. It is logical to assume that even with a 100:1 ratio as most want, the SW could still be above all others in gaining FS. Mainly because we have to handcraft it anyway.
In order for a full factory support profession to get fs xp, they have to handcraft alot. Alot of junk inmost of cases. Junk that can never be sold. Or go to practice mode (More efficient) and gain nothing not even for sale later. While the SW has to handcraft anyway and we gain a decided advantage on the fact alot if not all of the stuff we do handcraft can be sold later.
So in fact a shipwright is different from other crafting professions. Not just the fact we dont require AxP to master. But also because we handcraft everything.
Now two possible solutions/compromises to this.
Since a shipwright has a better chance to sell stuff he crafted compared to other professions, allow the xp after master to be gained only from practice mode. Meaning once a shipwright reaches master they only gain xp from crafting widgets (practice items) and not from items he/she can sell later. Then you can have your fs xp conversion without one upping other professions.
-or-
Make a choice, factory support or fs xp conversion. One or the other but not both.
So give me your input on this new view.
Tyranus
SLK
Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:42 am
#17
All sp required professions should yield FS xp, no matter how low.
If you dont want to do the fs grind, or get boxes that will aid your crafting as an endgame goal, the fine. But dont punish the ones that does.
I do not, but I do agree that sw should give fs xp. The xp is already at 1/4 of each resource, the grind would take way longer than doing architecht and would cost more. Noone would do SW for the fs xp only.
Master should not be endgame, you should have a choice.
If you dont want to, then fine, but aleast give some fs xp since it requires sp.
And no, no fs xp for pilots
If you dont want to do the fs grind, or get boxes that will aid your crafting as an endgame goal, the fine. But dont punish the ones that does.
I do not, but I do agree that sw should give fs xp. The xp is already at 1/4 of each resource, the grind would take way longer than doing architecht and would cost more. Noone would do SW for the fs xp only.
Master should not be endgame, you should have a choice.
If you dont want to, then fine, but aleast give some fs xp since it requires sp.
And no, no fs xp for pilots
Zaket
Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:46 am
#18
Niacia wrote:
For me playing a MMORG is about character growth. After hitting master, the only form of character growth are the force sensitive skills.
Hmmmm, let's see.
I'm a TKM so I can defend myself while placing and servicing harvestors, Novice Medic so I can heal, got the requirements for SW in Artisan plus enough Survey so I can find stuff, got enough Merchant so I can place NPC vendors and register them on the map, and I'm a Master Shipwright.
Son of a gun, I'm out of skill points.
So tell me, just where is this "character growth" going to come from?
fatgato
Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:35 am
#19
Zaket wrote:
Niacia wrote:
For me playing a MMORG is about character growth. After hitting master, the only form of character growth are the force sensitive skills.
Hmmmm, let's see.
I'm a TKM so I can defend myself while placing and servicing harvestors, Novice Medic so I can heal, got the requirements for SW in Artisan plus enough Survey so I can find stuff, got enough Merchant so I can place NPC vendors and register them on the map, and I'm a Master Shipwright.
Son of a gun, I'm out of skill points.
So tell me, just where is this "character growth" going to come from?
Growth can be variety thing zaket , from expanding ones knowledge i.e. Learning Force sensitive skills and or even changing your given profession at a later date. Character Growth is whatever someone deems. Just because you run out of skill points doesnt mean you cannot grow.
The only major draw back of having SW xp transfer to FS xp is that resources used to grind would inflate the prices even more then they are. I would however like to see it , even a low transfer rate , seeing I already got Glowly with my ithorian.So say a 100 to 1 transfer rate or ever 500 to 1 would be nice at least , but who knows.
Niacia
Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:12 pm
#20
Petabyte,
I seem to be a little dumb here. I do not understand, how a LOW conversion rate affects your playstyle?
I agree force bonuses to the piloting skills would affect everyones palystyle and I am very much opposed to that. But that is a pilot issue, not a shipwright issue.
And yes, the dorce gain would be small, almost not noticeable. You said this yourself. So why would this affect your playstyle?
But it would make all the difference to people like me, because I would still be working toward a goal. For me, it is not about reaching a goal, it is about working towards a goal. This might be a way of thought you are not used to. For me it is actually better, if it takes a long time, because it keeps me occupied for that long time. Even, if it was only myself and no Jedi grinders, I would actually prefer a conversion rate of 100:1 compared to 1:1. Because it takes longer.
And regarding pilot skills. Piloting is twitch based. I experienced the effect of skill boni on a twitch based game in another MMORG. It sucks. It royaly sucks. The game is not fair anymore, and PvP just does not make any sense, if your playstyle is not compatible to these skill boni. For me, giving Jedi boni to piloting would destroy the pilot game. Just plain and simple.
And I do not care, if this fits into continuity. I know Luke is the pilot he is, because of his force sensitivity. But if it is continuity vs. fun, I prefer fun.
Regards
Niacia
I seem to be a little dumb here. I do not understand, how a LOW conversion rate affects your playstyle?
I agree force bonuses to the piloting skills would affect everyones palystyle and I am very much opposed to that. But that is a pilot issue, not a shipwright issue.
And yes, the dorce gain would be small, almost not noticeable. You said this yourself. So why would this affect your playstyle?
But it would make all the difference to people like me, because I would still be working toward a goal. For me, it is not about reaching a goal, it is about working towards a goal. This might be a way of thought you are not used to. For me it is actually better, if it takes a long time, because it keeps me occupied for that long time. Even, if it was only myself and no Jedi grinders, I would actually prefer a conversion rate of 100:1 compared to 1:1. Because it takes longer.
And regarding pilot skills. Piloting is twitch based. I experienced the effect of skill boni on a twitch based game in another MMORG. It sucks. It royaly sucks. The game is not fair anymore, and PvP just does not make any sense, if your playstyle is not compatible to these skill boni. For me, giving Jedi boni to piloting would destroy the pilot game. Just plain and simple.
And I do not care, if this fits into continuity. I know Luke is the pilot he is, because of his force sensitivity. But if it is continuity vs. fun, I prefer fun.
Regards
Niacia
Niacia
Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:14 am
#21
Growth for me would mean becoming an even better crafter. Yes, I have to give up things for this kind of growth. Yes, I do hate this. I absolutely hate having to drop skills. I would absolutely love to see a way for a slight increase of skill points over time. Yes, I can see why this might not be a good idea for the overall game.
Let me put it another way, character growth for me is to trade skills I want for skills I want even more.
And compared to other skills, force sensitive skills are cheap in skillpoint cost.
Regards
Niacia
Let me put it another way, character growth for me is to trade skills I want for skills I want even more
.And compared to other skills, force sensitive skills are cheap in skillpoint cost.
Regards
Niacia
Niacia
Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:17 am
#22
PetaByte32 wrote:Now two possible solutions/compromises to this.Since a shipwright has a better chance to sell stuff he crafted compared to other professions, allow the xp after master to be gained only from practice mode. Meaning once a shipwright reaches master they only gain xp from crafting widgets (practice items) and not from items he/she can sell later. Then you can have your fs xp conversion without one upping other professions.-or-Make a choice, factory support or fs xp conversion. One or the other but not both.So give me your input on this new view.Tyranus
Good gambit Peta
.You know of course I hate both options you propose
.As a droid engineer I use handcrafting wherever it is possible, just to get those force sensitve XP. Even before there was force conversion, I was hand crafting more often then not...
Difficult choice, I have to think about this.
Regards
Niacia
Martan
Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:30 am
#23
PetaByte32 wrote:
One big thing that Nacia actually showed me unintentionally. Everyone says that shipwright is a ground profession and cost skill points. That its in no way different from other crafting professions so in fact there is every reason to give the SW a conversion.
However I want to bring some new evidence I have to the conversion and why it should NOT be granted to SWs. Lets take this the long way so I dont have to explain it all in more threads. More then a few people are getting tired of my posts.
First lets look at a regular crafting profession. We will take Weaponsmith as an example. A weaponsmith in full production can trade in his capped xp for fs xp. But most weaponsmiths use factories alot so in fact they actually gain xp slower once master is reached then if they had to hand craft everything. I can already see some people starting to hit the reply button. Wait please.
Now lets look at yet another crafting profession. Architect. Some of what they do is handcrafted but really only on the finally construction in most cases. The parts to build a house, harv, or whatever is done in a factory. So even their xp is limited.
Finally lets look at shipwrights. Of all the professions, 90% of what we craft is handcrafted in regards to xp gains. It is logical to assume that even with a 100:1 ratio as most want, the SW could still be above all others in gaining FS. Mainly because we have to handcraft it anyway.
In order for a full factory support profession to get fs xp, they have to handcraft alot. Alot of junk inmost of cases. Junk that can never be sold. Or go to practice mode (More efficient) and gain nothing not even for sale later. While the SW has to handcraft anyway and we gain a decided advantage on the fact alot if not all of the stuff we do handcraft can be sold later.
So in fact a shipwright is different from other crafting professions. Not just the fact we dont require AxP to master. But also because we handcraft everything.
Now two possible solutions/compromises to this.
Since a shipwright has a better chance to sell stuff he crafted compared to other professions, allow the xp after master to be gained only from practice mode. Meaning once a shipwright reaches master they only gain xp from crafting widgets (practice items) and not from items he/she can sell later. Then you can have your fs xp conversion without one upping other professions.
-or-
Make a choice, factory support or fs xp conversion. One or the other but not both.
So give me your input on this new view.
Tyranus
I was a Master Weaponsmith and while I made most weapons to sell by factory in order to do what the game requires me to do, GRIND, I did that too. So, your argument is this, since its not fun and profitablefor other crafting classes to get FS and it would be, in your opinion, SWs should be excluded. That is nonsense. Are you a SW? Have you played the class yet? The fun is in the interaction of the customer, the draw back is the HUGE amounts of resources I have to harvest or buy to make these items. So, since enjoying a class should exclude you from FS I would take it that you feel that there are a lot of miserable people out there and if SWs are not just as unhappy then find a way to make them suffer... that is just small and pitiful.
Here is my fix; Giver factory based classes more exp from using the facotory. Exp from factories is already in the game. The only change would be adjusting to multiplier up. Better?
Message Edited by Martan on 11-10-2004 09:43 AM
Niacia
Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:26 pm
#24
Ok, having had some time to thing about this.
1) Force XP for practice only would be quite complicated to implement. Furthermore, it would not work for me, because I am not grinding. With droid engineer, I am just saving up XP, but not grinding to master the force boxes as fast as possible.
2) Force XP for practice only (and with a low conversion rate) would also not work for the power grinders, because it would not be efficient.
So I suspect, if it was implemented that way, nobody would be happy. Due to the complicated implementation (and possible bugs resulting from this) this would probably not be worthwhile for anybody.
A comment: Tailors, too, can sell stuff made by handcrafting. So can Architects. So can Droid Engineers (at least for most stuff). So can Artisans.
Now, the other solution you proposed. The normal force conversion and factory support. I am not sure, this makes sense. The factories would only have a very minor impact on the force XP generated, as no one in his right mind would start making high level chassis in factories anyway. At least no casual gamer, as he has no access to the amount of resources that would be necessary to make a factory run of chassis worthwhile. And compared to chassis XP component XP really is peanuts.
So, after some reflection, your proposal does not seem to be sound.
Regards
Niacia
1) Force XP for practice only would be quite complicated to implement. Furthermore, it would not work for me, because I am not grinding. With droid engineer, I am just saving up XP, but not grinding to master the force boxes as fast as possible.
2) Force XP for practice only (and with a low conversion rate) would also not work for the power grinders, because it would not be efficient.
So I suspect, if it was implemented that way, nobody would be happy. Due to the complicated implementation (and possible bugs resulting from this) this would probably not be worthwhile for anybody.
A comment: Tailors, too, can sell stuff made by handcrafting. So can Architects. So can Droid Engineers (at least for most stuff). So can Artisans.
Now, the other solution you proposed. The normal force conversion and factory support. I am not sure, this makes sense. The factories would only have a very minor impact on the force XP generated, as no one in his right mind would start making high level chassis in factories anyway. At least no casual gamer, as he has no access to the amount of resources that would be necessary to make a factory run of chassis worthwhile. And compared to chassis XP component XP really is peanuts.
So, after some reflection, your proposal does not seem to be sound.
Regards
Niacia
Niacia
Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:28 pm
#25
PetaByte32 wrote:OMake a choice, factory support or fs xp conversion.Tyranus
Just to be a smartass. If I have to choose between factory support which I do not want) and force XP conversion (which I do want):
I chose fs xp conversion and no factory support
.Regards
Niacia
Niacia
Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:30 am
#26
PetaByte32 wrote:It comes down to this. I dont want SW to have a fs xp conversion because I want FS and jedi as far away from JTL as possible. I dont want to give even the slightest chance that it could be used as an excuse to ruin JTL like the groundgame.Tyranus
You are talking about ruining the pilot profession? Or am I mistaken.
I still think these are two very different issues. And I do not believe one decission influences the other in any way.
Anyway, this is really the only argument against force conversion that I was able to find so far.
Yes, if the decission was between force conversion AND force pilot skills, or neither, I might choose neither.
I just do not believe these points are related in any way. If it was about allowing pilot XP to be converted to force combat XP, I would agree. This might be seen as a first step. And also I am also I pilot, I am not an advocat of doing this.
But Pilot and SW are 2 (actually 4
) very different professions. If there was a force conversion rate, I would not accept this as an argument for a pilot XP force conversion rate.Anyway, I am interested, what will be the result of the poll.
Regards
Niacia