Shipwright Archive

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Niacia wrote:

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PetaByte32 wrote:It comes down to this. I dont want SW to have a fs xp conversion because I want FS and jedi as far away from JTL as possible. I dont want to give even the slightest chance that it could be used as an excuse to ruin JTL like the groundgame.

Tyranus

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You are talking about ruining the pilot profession? Or am I mistaken.
I still think these are two very different issues. And I do not believe one decission influences the other in any way.

Anyway, this is really the only argument against force conversion that I was able to find so far.

Yes, if the decission was between force conversion AND force pilot skills, or neither, I might choose neither.

I just do not believe these points are related in any way. If it was about allowing pilot XP to be converted to force combat XP, I would agree. This might be seen as a first step. And also I am also I pilot, I am not an advocat of doing this.

But Pilot and SW are 2 (actually 4 ) very different professions. If there was a force conversion rate, I would not accept this as an argument for a pilot XP force conversion rate.

Anyway, I am interested, what will be the result of the poll.

Regards

Niacia

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Again, there have been numerous people who have said that not only do they want a SW fs xp conversion but that they want FS Vehicle Control in space. A few have even said if shipwright gets an xp conversion then vehicle control should be added as well. Meaning they are using whether or not shipwrights get an xp conversion as a reason they should get vehicle control in space.

Then there is the few posts where players have said if people get vehicle control in space then jedi should have their own uber pilot profession, ships, etc.

XP Conversion for shipwrights could be just one step to jedi getting bonuses in space. Granted at the moment most jedi dont want bonuses. But in the beginning only a couple of wookie players were for wookie armor. It starts with a single voice.

Tyranus

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PetaByte32 wrote:

Again, there have been numerous people who have said that not only do they want a SW fs xp conversion but that they want FS Vehicle Control in space. A few have even said if shipwright gets an xp conversion then vehicle control should be added as well. Meaning they are using whether or not shipwrights get an xp conversion as a reason they should get vehicle control in space.

Then there is the few posts where players have said if people get vehicle control in space then jedi should have their own uber pilot profession, ships, etc.

XP Conversion for shipwrights could be just one step to jedi getting bonuses in space. Granted at the moment most jedi dont want bonuses. But in the beginning only a couple of wookie players were for wookie armor. It starts with a single voice.

Tyranus

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Granted, there are people who want all of those things. And I even can accept your theory that budging at one issue can be a first step.

But I think this probability is very low.

On the other hand, budging at one issue can also strengthen the defense of other issues. Because people will react to you in another way. I think this probability is small but somewhat larger.

You know, one can take your approach to extremes. If one does not want Jedi influence on the pilot game, one could demand to completely block Jedi from the space game. Pilot does not need to be a free profession for Jedi. (Nothing I would advocate of course, and I believe, neither would you).

The thing I do not like about this approach, is that you want to make it impossible for other players to enjoying a part of the game, you do not care about, whatsoever. A part of the game, in which you stated you are not interested. And which would not have an effect on your gameplay.

You do this, because you fear, that this might lead to further changes in the gameplay you would not enjoy.

There is a saying in German: "The freedom of one person ends, where the freedom of another person starts."

I think you draw your line awfully close to what you want. I think it is fair to take a stand on an issue that has impact for your style of play. But do not have the impression, this is the case here.

This is something, some players care about deeply. Just because you do not understand their reasons, this does not mean their concerns are not valid.

I ask you to think about this.

Regards

Niacia

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Martan wrote:

I was a Master Weaponsmith and while I made most weapons to sell by factory in order to do what the game requires me to do, GRIND, I did that too. So, your argument is this, since its not fun and profitablefor other crafting classes to get FS and it would be, in your opinion, SWs should be excluded. That is nonsense. Are you a SW? Have you played the class yet? The fun is in the interaction of the customer, the draw back is the HUGE amounts of resources I have to harvest or buy to make these items. So, since enjoying a class should exclude you from FS I would take it that you feel that there are a lot of miserable people out there and if SWs are not just as unhappy then find a way to make them suffer... that is just small and pitiful.

Here is my fix; Giver factory based classes more exp from using the facotory. Exp from factories is already in the game. The only change would be adjusting to multiplier up. Better?

Message Edited by Martan on 11-10-2004 09:43 AM

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Actually I am a shipwright. Have been since JTL was released. I was a master shipwright 3 hours after loading in the game the dayJTL was released.Played SW in beta also. I even went from novice to master in beta 4 times to see how long it takes me.

I maxed out my SW xp in one hour after reaching master. With the amount of items I have made in game I can guess if I could convert it, I would have been able too at least100 times. But that is because of the rush and not trying to use that as a reason for not getting the conversion.

Dealing or not dealingwith customers is a personal playstyle here that you bring up. I personally dont care for it. Not because I hate people but because once word gets out your a shipwright, you get /tells like mad. At least I have. Almost always while I am out doing something non shipwright. While doing pilot missions, hunting, etc. I get the private messages "Can you make me a this, a that, and another thing." and I never wear my master shipwright tag.

The fun for me is making the items and always trying to one up myself. Trying to make an item as good as possible then turn around and try to make it even better. Not all crafters like dealing with customers. Some, this might suprize you, just like to craft. The really odd thing here is I hate to craft in the other professions. Tried Artisan, DE, WS, Arch, and Armorsmith. I hated them all. To me they were boring and severely limited. But shipwright is one crafting profession I truly enjoy.

But to each his own. Everyone likes or hates a profession for whatever reasons. I love the specialized ranged professions like rifleman but hate the melee professions. I loved doctor but hated combat medic. I love bounty hunter but hate commando. I love ranger and smuggler but hate SL and BE. I liked musician but hated dancer.

You dont see me saying "Get rid of dancer fs xp conversions." do you?

It comes down to this. I dont want SW to have a fs xp conversion because I want FS and jedi as far away from JTL as possible. I dont want to give even the slightest chance that it could be used as an excuse to ruin JTL like the groundgame.

Tyranus

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Cebre_Opasloa wrote:

I haven't seen ONE really intelligent reason given why shipwrights should not be able to convert XP...

Pilot skills take no skill points, and piloting is twitch based. So there is no strong reason to give them any bonuses. Shipwrights are a ground-based profession that spend ground-game skill points to be members of that profession and should be able to convert the XP like any other crafter. We may argue the ratio, personally I think 35:1 like Architect is fine, but then I also think Architects get the shaft at 35:1 (20:1 is more fair).

The closest thing to a real reason given is that it leads down the slippery slope to Jedi getting bonuses....

Would that really be game-breaking if done correctly?

What about giving Force Sensitives 1/2% more speed per Vehicle Control box... that'll max it out at 2%... My current engine does 713, with 2% more it'd only do 727... not any real increase. Don't forget that the FS bonuses (not Jedi skills) are totally automatic out of player control and not that powerful in any case. Let's say a full-Jedi with Vehicle Control 4 gets 5%. He only get 750 speed instead of 713.

Let's say the bonus was combat related - the same figures with a 2000 max damage gun turns into 2100 max damage.

Is that REALLY going to make such a big difference? Ultimately if the Jedi is unskilled with a joystick you'll still whack him even with the slightly better damage or speed...

If the numbers are tweaked properly Jedi could get bonuses even in space and it wouldn't be game breaking.

Would most players even complain about Jedi if Saberblock was not so effective at up to 80%?

It's all a matter of tweaking the numbers.

The fact that shipwrights cannot transfer XP at all is indefensible by any logical argument...

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Nay, he is not really proving your point, as he is not demanding Jedi boni.

He is just asking, whether your fears are necessary.

Would Jedi abilities hurt the space game?

I think it would hurt the space game.

And regarding the ground game. I cannot say, I feel the impact of Jedis. At least not after the hologrinding frenzy stopped. And then, I was feeling the impact of people wanting to be Jedis not of Jedis themeselves.

From my experience, I have seen Jedi from time to time. Thats it. Not being a combatant they have no impact whatsoever on my gameplay. He might have similar experiences. So this is a valid question.

A question which you answered .

Anyway, neither of us will decide this issue. Neither will I manage to change your mind on this issue, as your fear of Jedi influence seems to be very large. Nor will you be able to change my mind, as I do not really see those two issues related. (at least, if you do not present an new point).

So it probably is time to drop the issue for the moment. Let us see, what result the poll will bring. Live with the results. And wait and see, what the devs are going to decide, if force conversion should become a SW issue.

Thanks for the discussion. For the most part, it was a good one. A discussion I enjoyed.

Regards

Niacia

P.S.:
Peta, see you in the next thread

Message Edited by Niacia on 11-12-2004 12:17 PM

Hmm, even if a Jedi bonus wa small, this would favour the Jedi. I really would not like to see this, not combat related not for PvP.

For PvE I would not care so much...

There are, however, possible Jedi boni, I would not object to. If a bonus is only relevant to PvE, I would not really care. And if Jedi repair skill would reduce decay during the repair of spaceships a little, so what... Or maybe the hyperjump calculations are a little faster...

But as soon, as it is combat related, this really gets hard to judge. I would prefer do have no Jedi boni for this.

And remember this, if you start granting Jedi boni to space, you absolutely need to add the Jedi penalty as well. From what I read in that interview a few minutes ago, there is no penalty on Jedi death in space. This would also need to be added...


Regards

Niacia

Right, a bonus would not necessarily be game breaking.
But a bonus, where you do not feel the difference might seem not worthwhile. And if there is a bonus in place, I fear the we really are on a slippery road.

I would prefer to leave any jedi boni out of space fights.

But this - of course - is only my opinion.

Regards

Niacia

Three reasons:

1. SW xp is blindingly easy to get (as shown by Architect being one of the slowest ways to get FS Crafting), as someone with the resources can grind it in a few hours, at the max. If it were put in at an even steeper conversion rate than Architect, you'd better believe this forum would be replete with "OMG THX 4 NOTHING DEVS1!!!11" threads, or threads of that accord. (I come to this conclusion because the first threads requesting starship xp/prestige conversion thread authors were tossing out absurd notions that the xp was comparable to combat xp at 3:1...

2. If SWs were given FS conversion, the whine from the pilots could be heard from space (and perhaps parallel universes).

3. Opening the door even SLIGHTLY linking JTL with ANYTHING relating to Jedi will result in a cataclysmic war of the forums which will reverberate for MONTHS.

Kyle ure right on these and in the worst case after granted Xp conv and for pilots and SW jedi would then ask for advantages in space and that would be like opening pandoras box .

But as a crafter myself and doc/medics/cm'S we are completly screwed like no other class in the village grind system . We have a relativly good conversation rate (keep archis out there) but a rediculous low xp cap AND most of us need at least a private crafting station to make some relativly good xp grinding and as u know there cannot be houses placed on datho.
Good there are droids but have u ever tried using a crafting tool in the villiage or nearby .... the lag is awesome and droid batterys went out way to fast so we have to move off planet to a place with a much lower lag have a private crafting station there to fill up a rediculous low xp cap then head all the way back .
Just for 2 lines this has to be done for an armorsmith around 120 times ........ how often has a fighter to convert maxing out all of his xp in a row to get 2 lines full.... anmd especially how often a dancer musican combination with an outa control conversation rate ?

As for crafters the xp cap should be 5 times as high as it is now ...... justz my opinion to end this discussion