Shipwright Archive

the thing about the cross server trader os factories was just stating that cross server trades will not affect things due to not able to chase down the good resources but say someone traded 10 lots and uses those for 10 factories or house or other storage medium and now they have their oen lots free for chasing down those good resources/ I know people who have trades lots for items other than just harvesters for this reason. So the cross server lot swapping can impact things if full factory suport added for SW. As to where the post from devs about that I am not able to find it with a simple search but was done back before JTL went live and could have even been in the beta forusm when we had the huge thread about the same tipic with many of the same arguments. The end result of that argument was the limited factory suport that was given which is and should be more than enough to help out any one who is trying to make a business of the profession. All the ones who have said they want factories then say that all they want is limited suport forget that we do have limited suport already. Could be back like it was in beta when NOTHING could be made in the factorys. All in all think that what we have now is a good compromize. But then again some have to have everything simplified and lowered to the lowest common denominator and made into a simple automated system. I mean why stop with factory suport wht not add full npc suport. Ys know have an npc that a master can hire and just feed respurces and the buyer walks up click on it and says what they want. if they have the resources they get the item that they want?

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pervel wrote:

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Niacia wrote:


In that other thread I just responded to, you say, that you feel, most of the factory haters are medicore crafters, who would be hurt, if you could produce more, as then it would become clear, that their quality is less.

You are contradicting yourself.

And no, a factory gives not equal benefits to everybody. It gives greater benefits to people with more lots. If you really were limited to your own lots and there was no lot trading (neither cross server, nor cross account) and there were no resource dealers, then factory were equal opprotunity for everybody. But as soon, as people have access to different numbers of lots, this changes...

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I only said "some of the factory haters".... but ok.

I guess you are right. Bad crafters will not have as good a sale as good crafters. Isn't that fine? *shrugs*

Everybody can use a factory. Just like everybody can use a harvester. Everybody has equal opportunity for getting lots too. Sharing of lots is part of the game. If the devs didn't want this, they would disallow it. Maybe they will at some point.

You and many others talk so much about cross-server lot sharing as if it had such a major impact on the game. I don't think it has and I have never used it myself. This is not because of any moral considerations - I don't think there are any. But simply because it is not that easy. If you want to harvest good quality resources, you will need to move your harvesters around all the time. This takes time and dedication and is not something you can easily do if you don't own the harvesters. This is why I simply don't see cross-server lot sharing as being a threat.

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Ok, most or some, could be I read it wrongly...

Anyhow, even without factories, good crafters will have more sales. Will make more money. But with factories, the difference gets bigger. And if a medicore crafter can get by and still has fun playing, I see that as a good thing. In time, he might become a great crafter.

Regarding lot trades, x-server lot trades might not be that much of a danger, they can still be used for houses and factories without any problems. Which frees up more lots for factories.

Multiple accounts lead to an even larger imbalance. I heard about a guy having 7 accounts. Which means 70 lots. If you add x-server trades, these are 70 heavy harvesters. That is a lot, is it not?

So for me it boils down to this: Limited factory support as it is now means less difference between high end and low end crafters. I see that as a good thing.

Regards

Niacia

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Niacia wrote:

Multiple accounts lead to an even larger imbalance. I heard about a guy having 7 accounts. Which means 70 lots. If you add x-server trades, these are 70 heavy harvesters. That is a lot, is it not?

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pervel wrote:

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Niacia wrote:

Multiple accounts lead to an even larger imbalance. I heard about a guy having 7 accounts. Which means 70 lots. If you add x-server trades, these are 70 heavy harvesters. That is a lot, is it not?

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Yes, there are some crazy addicts to games that have several accounts. But to me it makes no difference if the same guy owns 7 accounts or if there are 7 people working together. That guy with 7 accounts probably spends a lot more time in the game than others do. It is only natural that this kind of dedication gives him an advantage. I see no problem in that and I don't fear him. I am just happy that I am not that addicted to the game.

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I am not so sure. I know a few people with multiple accounts (2 in both cases). They are not spending much more time in the game, then I am. The additional characters are only used as moles, to simplify things. Some people just do not seem to care for the money.

Regards

Niacia

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lisasdarren wrote:

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Kinot33 wrote:

My issue is that it is all about time in a combat oriented game world. Crafters are left holding the bag when it comes to actual content, excluding the jedi missions...which you need either massive support or to be a combat profession to become. Since the game is so massively geared towards combat roles, non-combat players are left little choice but to join the frenzy and pick up combat roles or be left out of most of the game's content.

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That is nonsense, maybe if you are playing a crafter, but don't actually enjoy being a crafter you may feel that, but for those of us who play crafters because we actually enjoy it there is loads of content built into the professions.

Resource surveying, harvesting and management is a game all on its own, keeping track on what is available, figuring out if it is better than your current stuff, finding a good spot is all part of this game and is fun.

(snip)

If you want to be able to mass produce as much stuff as possible with as little input then you are missing the point of being a crafter and it is no wonder that you are not enjoying all the crafting involved in Shipwright. If you don't want to craft, then don't be a crafter, there are plenty who do want to craft and in SW they are getting a chance without being driven to bankruptcy by the mass producing factory wielding firms of business men who have lost the joy of pure 'crafting'

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Kinot33 wrote:

If you just want to sit around crafting, you are missing the point of being in a foreign universe. While the GCW is a bit fuddled lately, that is the contentI am talking about. Immersion in the war between the Rebels and the Imperials. Interaction with a storyline other than "okay, folks, here's some guns/armor/food/whatever. Now go kill those Rebs/imps and I'll sit here and twiddle my thumbs making more stuff for you".

Crafters got the shaft on storyline participation. In fact, everyone except combat professions gets the shaft.

And that's unfair to the people who want to be a part of the Star Wars Universe and really feel as if they are making a difference.

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Rhysen wrote:

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Kinot33 wrote:

If you just want to sit around crafting, you are missing the point of being in a foreign universe. While the GCW is a bit fuddled lately, that is the contentI am talking about. Immersion in the war between the Rebels and the Imperials. Interaction with a storyline other than "okay, folks, here's some guns/armor/food/whatever. Now go kill those Rebs/imps and I'll sit here and twiddle my thumbs making more stuff for you".

Crafters got the shaft on storyline participation. In fact, everyone except combat professions gets the shaft.

And that's unfair to the people who want to be a part of the Star Wars Universe and really feel as if they are making a difference.

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So essentially you're saying that because SOE couldn't find a way so that it was possible to win the GCW through knitting, more factory support is required so that you can do anything else but craft stuff?

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Nicely put...

If you want to influence the outcome of the civil war then go join the army, don't be a crafter.

Were any of the hero's in the films crafters? I don't think so. If you want to be a hero go do it with a combat character, if you want to be a stay at home crafter then do so. If you want to try and do both then fine, but you will have less time at both so will have a smaller business and less time fighting the good fight.

You don't get to run a business empire and at the same time be the greatest hero your side has ever known, you have to make choices or accept the consequences of compromising your role.

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lisasdarren wrote:

Nicely put...

If you want to influence the outcome of the civil war then go join the army, don't be a crafter.

Were any of the hero's in the films crafters? I don't think so. If you want to be a hero go do it with a combat character, if you want to be a stay at home crafter then do so. If you want to try and do both then fine, but you will have less time at both so will have a smaller business and less time fighting the good fight.

You don't get to run a business empire and at the same time be the greatest hero your side has ever known, you have to make choices or accept the consequences of compromising your role.

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Kinot33 wrote:

You have the ability to make a massive number of items through factory useage, yet no way to feel as if you are making a difference because there is nothing in game to tell you how you are doing as a crafter other than a number in your invenory window telling you how much money you have in the bank. So of course you are going to fight tooth and nail for what you believe to be the best way for that number to remain high enough that you get a sense of accomplishment from the game, be it a massive number indicating you are on top of the game, or a number you are simply content with that lets you craft whatever you wish and stay happy.

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I have the capacity and ability to make the most amoutn of items on my server. I am already the largest shipyards in the galaxy. Do you really think it best I expand and dominate the market on all the planets? I could easily do so with factory support. And another thing.. for merchants it doesn't matter who wins the damn war. we still make profit. War is good for profit or hadn't you heard? And you really do seem to demean us with your attitude. Yes, some of us do like to stay home and craft. Just because it's not your idea of an endgame doesn't mean it's not ours. So go skewer yourself on a pole.

@Kinot,

Last time I looked, you cannot win the GCW as a combatant either. It is static. And for some of the players at least as boring as crafting is for other people.

I dropped all my combat skills, when I became SW. But even before, it had been a long time, since I last did something combat related. The combat system of SWG to me is boring. Maybe, this is going to change with the combat revamp. Maybe not.

So remove the timesinks from crafting, so that I can enjoy other aspects of the game? What other aspects? I got my skill points sitting on crafter/mechant. You would also need to open up the skill points limit...

Anyhow, I opened up my position a little. As RedDestiny pointed out, it is about choices. I could agree to adding factory support, if it is done in a way, that is balanced. My sugegstion for this is the following:

During the crafting process, you decide between schematic and prototype before experimenting. Experimenting on prototypes works as it working now.

Experimentation on schematics works slightly different. Instead of adding a random ammount of experimentation, it is always the average amount of experimentation. This would be similar to the amount granted for a success.

his would mean, on average factory and hand crafted items do have the same quality. Hand crafted items will have the possibility to be the best or worst items possible, however.

In a way this does even reflect RL a lot better. If I start making furniture, the quality will be inferior to factory crafted furniture. If a master carpenter does the same, the quality will be higher then anything, that can be achieved by a factory.

With this idea, you can decide to be either a mass producer of decent stuff or a producer of high quality stuff in small numbers.

Regards

Niacia

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DingoBoi wrote:

I have the capacity and ability to make the most amoutn of items on my server. I am already the largest shipyards in the galaxy. Do you really think it best I expand and dominate the market on all the planets? I could easily do so with factory support. And another thing.. for merchants it doesn't matter who wins the damn war. we still make profit. War is good for profit or hadn't you heard? And you really do seem to demean us with your attitude. Yes, some of us do like to stay home and craft. Just because it's not your idea of an endgame doesn't mean it's not ours. So go skewer yourself on a pole.

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Message Edited by Kinot33 on 12-06-2004 03:58 AM

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Kinot33 wrote:

I hadn't thought of it in those terms. In your idea of hand crafting, the crafter is trying to acheieve the absolute best possible item every ime and discarding failures, wasting a large amount of resources in doing so each and every time they get an order or sit down to fill a vendor. If I am correct (and if not tell me why please) my idea simply migrates that waste to the factory instead of to the crafter, since you go through the creation process once and then pop it into a wasteful factory?

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Basically yes. Of course, most crafters would not discard stuff, that might not be optimal, but still decent. So the additional resource cost might actually be a little bit lower.

Basically, as money is not too much an issue for most veteran players, the minium level of quality that is accepted by the market is the level of items, that can be produced in sufficient quantity. With current factories this is the highest possible quality. This kills hand crafting as a viable alternative.

With the factories of your proposal, it might be a little lower, but I am not sure, how much lower. It depends on how many additional resources are required, and how large the runs are.

This would require carefull balancing. And this could mean, that 95%+ experimented stuff is limited to runs of 2 or 3 with a high cost of additional resources (At least if there is no kryat stuff involved).

My idea, on the other hand, would be quite easy to implement and much easier to balance. The only variable would be the amount gained by each experimentation point. Which also might be a little bit higher then the average gain of a hand crafter.

Whatever way we prefer, if we want both handcrafting and factory crafting to be viable options, factories need to be balanced. Both proposals could be a step in this direction.

Regards

Niacia