Shipwright Archive
Thread: A little story about no factory support
Page 12 of 12
Kinot33
Mon Dec 06, 2004 4:09 am
#144
Now if we can jus get them to take 3 servers and push our ideas to the first twoand a hybrid idea to the third we can figure out what works ^_^
Doo-Boo
Mon Dec 06, 2004 4:20 am
#145
I like factory support levels how they are now. I can craft my subcomponents and little petty items like spray paint in it. The reason I like it like this is that I do not have the ability to make a schematic for a Mark V Armor Plating. If I had the ability to make a schematic for a Mark V Armor Plating, I could sell this schematic, along with subcomponent upgrades to a non crafter then they could run off crates of Plating for themselves, eliminating part of my business or another SW's business.
So in short, with factory levels how they are now, NON SHIPWRIGHTS need to depend on us as suppliers of the end product, not suppliers of schematics. The only way to give us full support would be to have a new factory system for all crafters, limiting each MASTER CRAFTER to one, possibly two, non transferrable factories for their specific MASTER profession. NO factory farms of 10, 20 factories for one player. I have 10 lots and have a fairly good business on my home planet, even with EPC (our largest SW with 5 SW's) on the other side of the planet.
So in short, with factory levels how they are now, NON SHIPWRIGHTS need to depend on us as suppliers of the end product, not suppliers of schematics. The only way to give us full support would be to have a new factory system for all crafters, limiting each MASTER CRAFTER to one, possibly two, non transferrable factories for their specific MASTER profession. NO factory farms of 10, 20 factories for one player. I have 10 lots and have a fairly good business on my home planet, even with EPC (our largest SW with 5 SW's) on the other side of the planet.
Message Edited by Doo-Boo on 12-06-2004 07:38 AM
Message Edited by Doo-Boo on 12-06-2004 07:40 AM
Kinot33
Mon Dec 06, 2004 4:37 am
#146
Doo-Boo wrote:
I like factory support levels how they are now. I can craft my subcomponents and little petty items like spray paint in it. The reason I like it like this is that I do not have the ability to make a schematic for a Mark V Armor Plating. If I had the ability to make a schematic for a Mark V Armor Plating, I could sell this schematic, along with subcomponent upgrades to a non crafter then they could run off crates of Plating for themselves, eliminating part of my business or another SW's business.
So in short, with factory levels how they are now, NON SHIPWRIGHTS need to depend on us as suppliers of the end product, not suppliers of schematics. The only way to give us full support would be to have a new factory system for all crafters, limiting each MASTER CRAFTER to one, possibly two, non transferrable factories for their specific MASTER profession. NO factory farms of 10, 20 factories for one player. I have 10 lots and have a fairly good business on my home planet, even with EPC on the other side of the planet.
Now THAT! I will agree with! Completely forgot about that! Yes, if you aren't of high enough level in a profession to make a schematic, you shouldn't be able to use one either. Maybe make them non-tradeable and certed like engine parts. (JTL has a LOT of really good things in it....hints at the future of crafting Devs?)
DingoBoi
Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:44 am
#147
Doo-Boo wrote:
I have 10 lots and have a fairly good business on my home planet, even with EPC (our largest SW with 5 SW's) on the other side of the planet.
And I'm glad you do. I'm happy withmy business and as they say, you get what you put in. Factories let you 'not put in' and still get. McDonald's generation i think. All I'm hearing from pro-factory supporters is their best Veruca Salt voices saying "but i want it nooowwww".
pervel
Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:00 pm
#148
DingoBoi wrote:
Doo-Boo wrote:
I have 10 lots and have a fairly good business on my home planet, even with EPC (our largest SW with 5 SW's) on the other side of the planet.
And I'm glad you do. I'm happy withmy business and as they say, you get what you put in. Factories let you 'not put in' and still get. McDonald's generation i think. All I'm hearing from pro-factory supporters is their best Veruca Salt voices saying "but i want it nooowwww".
I guess you hear what you want to hear then!
Kinot33
Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:13 pm
#149
Niacia wrote:
@Kinot,
Last time I looked, you cannot win the GCW as a combatant either. It is static. And for some of the players at least as boring as crafting is for other people.
I dropped all my combat skills, when I became SW. But even before, it had been a long time, since I last did something combat related. The combat system of SWG to me is boring. Maybe, this is going to change with the combat revamp. Maybe not.
So remove the timesinks from crafting, so that I can enjoy other aspects of the game? What other aspects? I got my skill points sitting on crafter/mechant. You would also need to open up the skill points limit...
Anyhow, I opened up my position a little. As RedDestiny pointed out, it is about choices. I could agree to adding factory support, if it is done in a way, that is balanced. My sugegstion for this is the following:
During the crafting process, you decide between schematic and prototype before experimenting. Experimenting on prototypes works as it working now.
Experimentation on schematics works slightly different. Instead of adding a random ammount of experimentation, it is always the average amount of experimentation. This would be similar to the amount granted for a success.
his would mean, on average factory and hand crafted items do have the same quality. Hand crafted items will have the possibility to be the best or worst items possible, however.
In a way this does even reflect RL a lot better. If I start making furniture, the quality will be inferior to factory crafted furniture. If a master carpenter does the same, the quality will be higher then anything, that can be achieved by a factory.
With this idea, you can decide to be either a mass producer of decent stuff or a producer of high quality stuff in small numbers.
Regards
Niacia
The combat thing is kinda tedious at times, especially with the lack of interaction on the part of the player. Build a macro, click a buttona fewtimes and the enemy is dead, then find another and do it again. My hope for the CURB is that it will make the combat side of the game a challenge, especially since that is where a lot of the world interaction lies. Running missions for the Heros and Villains of the movies is boring right now since once you master a combat profession and get buffed before running them the enemies are a joke.
I know no one will ever win the GCW until the game is over, meaning SWG 2 basically...and then who knows what timeline they will use for that! Its not about winning, its about being part of the effort.
I don't believe crafters should have to sacrifice quality for time. I replied in the other thread with my idea for a better type offactory support for all crafters that penalizes those who have money and resources and want to save time, but allows those with less to do more with what they have and leaves hand crafting as the most economical of the group. Its not fully fleshed out yet, but I hope it is something people could accept. Making factory items have lower quality is very similar to simply not having factories at all, because that penalty will almost assure that no one buys factory made items, since everyone will know they are inferior to hand crafted and the entire factory market is destroyed.
My idea (fleshed out a little futher now) would be.
- Basic factories have a high output number and decent storage, but use extra resources (a percentage) per item crafted. This means that what costs you 200 resources to make by hand could be as much as 50% more to run in a basic, nearly unlimited factory.
- Architects could experiment the factories to reduce the amount of "waste" resource needed but it would begin to limit how much and how quickly the factory could make in one run. Severly limited. Start at 75 itemsand then go down swiftly to like 5 at best resource use...and you still have a slight penalty even with the best experimentation possible.
- Very high experimentation schematics could have an additional resource cost on top of the factory's "waste" resource needs. I would reccomend limiting this to 10% at most and possibly making it a completely different resource than the item uses. I see this as setting up the factory for a "special"run like metal fabrication shops or 4-color print processors.
There are a number of bonuses with this idea:
- Everyone can produce the same, high quality items, but those who want it done faster will be paying for he privilidge. it will further reduce the older players "hordes" of resources because they will have to use them to stay as big as they are and then eventually the playing field become even.
- It is scalar. The more items you want, the more resources you will waste. The better a factory you have, the more you save, but at the same time, you are now making less anyways even with lot trades.
- It adds a new element to Architects similar to the variety of craftability in nearly any ship part. Diversity in factory levels will mean more "face-time" business for Architects to create factories to customer specifications.
Lemme know what you think. 
edited for spelling and an incomplete sentence
Message Edited by Kinot33 on 12-06-2004 02:42 AM
Kinot33
Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:32 pm
#150
Rhysen wrote:
Kinot33 wrote:
Okay, so you are saying that crafters do not get to have any feeling of actually helping one side win? No making armor for Rebel NPC's, no making guns for Imperial Stormtrooper elite squads, No building temporary housing for an army on the move or feeding that army or anything at all that lets you feel like part of the Star Wars Universe and not just another crafter? You are truly content to sit in a house and make items all day for people who get to go out and be part of the immersive experience of Star Wars while you do nothing but click buttons and chat with your knitting circle?Why not play Pogo with the old ladies online and save 15 bucks a month then? Cause like it or leave it is a cop-out, that's why!
I already said "like it or leave" is not an acceptable position. No matter how often it is said, it is not a reason or justification for anyone's position on factory support levels or gamer satisfaction.
Rhysen, if more immersion is added for crafters, giving themmore waysto actually participate in the storylines, then yes, they could conceivable "win" the GCW by using their skills. Unlike now.
Actually no, I'm not content to sit in a house and make items all day for people. So I don't. And because I don't someone who is more dedicated than me has that much more business. That is exactly how it should be.
It should not be Joe Dilettante is as, if not more, successful that a dedicated crafter because factories allow any ape off the shuttle to produce as much/more than the dedicated crafter.In a system where the upper limits of item characteristics are capped and thereby able to be created by anyone, product availibility is one of the major differences between crafters. Eliminating that difference because you want to dabble in a crafting profession and be successful is not something that should be done.
Invest the effort to meet the level of success you want and allow those who are more dedicated than you the success they EARN.
But success is indefinable. Or rather its is truly only definable by ones own standards. I don't want to dominate the market, but beingacheiving a certain level of successand having a second job/business/whatever is not an unreasonable request. Millions of people the world over do it.
But in this game, the casual players should be able to compete (I know, I know, but it's that pesky idea of "balance" that makes executives believe this) and factories allow that. Changing how factories work is a better idea than just pulling the plug on them, because the player base would pitch a hissy if that happened. So read my suggestion on changing all factories (and it would still require either a retro active change or just breaking the old factories so they can't produce anymore) and tell me what you think. I look forward to hearing from you.
Niacia
Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:48 pm
#151
Hmm, your idea has some potential, but it still needs some work.
But first, let me add a few thoughts about my idea (which are also related to your idea). And, I will not limit it to SW this time.
In my idea, hand crafting is much more expensive then factory crafting, because for every exeptional item you get, you have to throw away an item with is worse then a factory crafeted one due to a non-optimal experimentation (because the average quality stays the same).
It also has the advantage, that exeptional items remain rare. This, to me, is another advantage, as this would mean, that not everybody is using the same max experimented armor, thus adding variety to combat.
So we would get exeptional handcrafted armor, components, or whatever, which due to the fact, that they are handcrafted, remain rare. And not comonplace, as it is the case today in many professions.
This does mimic real life, where most people use factory made stuff, and only a few people actually get hand crafted shoes, or furniture.
Back to your idea. You are going just the other way, making factory crafted stuff a lot more expensive. But you have to figure in the cost of failed experimentation. This would mean, you would probably need a lot more waste resources then you figured. The best thing would probably be to tie it to experimentation quality. If only one in 10 tries give a specific quality, the waste resources are 9 times the needed resources. To get it balanced. To thsi you would need to add something to balance for the time safed.
Any lower, and the factories would destroy the hand crafting amrket.
Regards
Niacia
But first, let me add a few thoughts about my idea (which are also related to your idea). And, I will not limit it to SW this time.
In my idea, hand crafting is much more expensive then factory crafting, because for every exeptional item you get, you have to throw away an item with is worse then a factory crafeted one due to a non-optimal experimentation (because the average quality stays the same).
It also has the advantage, that exeptional items remain rare. This, to me, is another advantage, as this would mean, that not everybody is using the same max experimented armor, thus adding variety to combat.
So we would get exeptional handcrafted armor, components, or whatever, which due to the fact, that they are handcrafted, remain rare. And not comonplace, as it is the case today in many professions.
This does mimic real life, where most people use factory made stuff, and only a few people actually get hand crafted shoes, or furniture.
Back to your idea. You are going just the other way, making factory crafted stuff a lot more expensive. But you have to figure in the cost of failed experimentation. This would mean, you would probably need a lot more waste resources then you figured. The best thing would probably be to tie it to experimentation quality. If only one in 10 tries give a specific quality, the waste resources are 9 times the needed resources. To get it balanced. To thsi you would need to add something to balance for the time safed.
Any lower, and the factories would destroy the hand crafting amrket.
Regards
Niacia
Doo-Boo
Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:49 am
#152
pervel wrote:
DingoBoi wrote:
Doo-Boo wrote:
I have 10 lots and have a fairly good business on my home planet, even with EPC (our largest SW with 5 SW's) on the other side of the planet.And I'm glad you do. I'm happy with my business and as they say, you get what you put in. Factories let you 'not put in' and still get. McDonald's generation i think. All I'm hearing from pro-factory supporters is their best Veruca Salt voices saying "but i want it nooowwww".
I guess you hear what you want to hear then!
Do you believe that a schematic should be transferred to a non crafter to put into a factory?
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