Shipwright Archive
Thread: A little story about no factory support
PetaByte32 wrote:
Rhysen wrote:
PetaByte32 wrote:
Thank you. you finally proved my point with pretty much everything you said. Effort is what makes or breaks a shipwright. Not factories. That is the word I was looking for. Factories play no part in this. And having them would still require effort. If the crafter doesnt put in effort in any of the crafting professions he wont succeed. Plain and simple and to the point. Again thanks.
And it isnt about bigtime its about succeeding. Everyone has their own view on what success is. For me its having fun playing a game and doing something I enjoy. Doesnt matter if I am bigtime or not. If I am having fun then I am bigtime to myself.
Oh and my uncle works for GM. The only time those cars are really touched by human hands is when they load the hoppers and when they drive them off. Go to the GM plant if you wanna see. They give tours sometimes. Very interesting. Oh there will be some hands on stuff but its so automated its sickening in a way. Didnt take me 50 years after all. Want some more fun go to japan. They are even more automated. Only reason we arent as automated is because unions wont let them get that way.
Tyranus
You might like to believe that's what I said. But it's not. Effort currently is what makes or breaks a shipwright. With increased factory support, factories is what can make or break the entire Shipwright profession. Youasked somewhere earlier who would invest 200k steel to make a 1k run of missile packs. Then you say you only usually make 25 at a time.
My factory is currently outputting 100 packs of Image Rec I torpedos. I had considered running off a thousand, having the resources on hand to do so.I rejected that idea. I have the resources to spare, despite grinding Shipwright, to make the run without missing the 375k steel for anything. The effort of moving 2 stacks of resources into the ingredient hopper, loading the schematic and selecting Start is no major bother. Quite simply because my plan is to operate out of a single location, there wouldn't be enough exposure for me justify using that much inventory space in a single vendor (only have Merchant 3000). If I was full Master Merchant I probably would do so, using the extra vendors on different planets to spread out the inventory and maintainingsurplusin each of the local stores to cut down on traveltime/save item space in a single structure. Why not? It's not like they degrade if left sitting.
There are people who have 60+ lots devoted to harvesters thanks to cross-server swaps. If operating on even 50% density resource concentrations, that's 561k resources per day. There were Master Shipwrights on Live within 2 hours of JTL going live, meaning they had the 5m resources necessary to grind MSW on hand and not being utilized for anything, aka sitting idle. You believe that because you make torpedos 25 at a time that nobody else would create a huge factory run ofmax damage experimentedblastersanddrop the crates off in their vendor locations. Thereby creating a mule competitor they log in once a day to restock their vendors you can never outsell because they never seem to run dry of goods?
Because the only significant difference between crafters in a system that restricts the upper limits of item characteristics is:
- Item availibiloty (Is the item in stock?)
- Convenience (How far do I have to fly/run/drive to get one)
Factories render the first one negligible.
Actually I am one of those people that mastered shipwright the moment the servers came up the first day JTL came out. Now before you starting pointing at me listen up. I gathered all my resources myself. I spent a month buying resources, mining resources, etc. The only thing my guild supplied me was the hardest resource it took me to find. That was steel. I only had close to half what was needed in steel. Everything else I had ready to go. But I also had to beg, borrow, steal, and cheat to get it. Took me a month to gather it all.
Just so you know if we have too, we can field over 100 harvestors. And we have before. Yet I am still having to go outside to get some of my resources. We are mainly a crafting guild. Yet of all the professions we have, my section burns through more resources then all the others combined. I dont have exact numbers but if I took all the resources we used since JTL came out, I could probably master shipwright 100 times. But we do have days where we are clamouring for ore, steel, or some other resource. 100 harvs we can drop if need be, yet we are still getting low all the time.
So anyway. Back to the topic at hand. Basically you want to limit factories because some guys can field alot more harvs or because they have mule characters? Sounds more like a personal problem to me. Dont make everyone else suffer or have to play your way just cause you didnt think of it first or dont know anyone who would help you. If I can put in the effort to get more lots, resources, etc I am gonna succeed no matter what you do to limit me.
Effort is still what makes or breaks a shipwright. Even if we had full factory support, if the shipwright doesnt put forth the effort, he wont succeed. Its the same with every single profession out there. Crafter, combat, medical, or entertainer. If you arent willing to put in effort then you wont get anywhere. Disagree all you want but its a fact of life. Not just games but life in general. Making it easier on the guys not willing to put in the effort by limiting factories will not help them. If they wont put in the effort they wont succeed even if you hand it to them on a silver platter. And the guys willing to put in the effort and have the desire are gonna succeed no matter what you do.
Again, by limiting factories all your doing is making road longer. The big combine guilds will still "win" or control the market. They will just do it with a few more shipwrights. So all your doing is delaying the inevitable. Some shipwrights will quit (Already happening alot more then other profs.) and some will just have the small Mom and Pop type vendors that wont ever be able to compete with the big combines. Just like other professions. Factories play no part in this. Its all about effort. Your changing the rules but the effect is still the same.
Tyranus
ok, then please succeed without more factory support. you are making his point. succeed with your effort. and i will succeed with my effort. and neither of us will require factories to succeed. or lot swaps. heck, i don't even need 100 harvesters in the field... i could not use up all those resources single handedly.
limiting factories does not help those who make no effort succeed. that is silly. no, it is balogna. exactly the opposite is true: it allows those who put in the effort to succeed proportionately to their effort. factories allow a few people to succeed to ridiculous extremes with markedly reduced effort. you have shot down your own position.
more shipwrights is a good thing. whether they are solo or in larger groups, it is still more. so you have made one of the chief points in favor of continuing limits on factories: more shipwrights. i personally think there will be more groups of shipwrights, more guilds of shipwrights, AND more solo shipwrights as a result of factory limits. time will tell, and we only have proof from other professions that more factory support = fewer professionals.
you are, as you discribe above, the megalomaniac i fear, who would flood the market if the tools were at your disposal. not a flame. you mastered shipwright in TWO HOURS!?!?!? i worked hard to become a master in over two weeks. but i did not horde, i did not grind, i did not build chassis i did not need in order to level. i actually played as a shipwright to the point of making master! yes, it is true! and made money doing it, something virtually no other crafting profession could offer me.
it is just human nature to want to succeed. in spite of the limited factory support, you are still frantically trying to achieve market dominance through any means possible. if more factory support were available, after the first few days your vendors would have been brimming with goods, and that huge inventory would have swamped your competition. you would have "won."
but due in large part to limited factory support, i can compete with you. we both get 24 hours in a day, and from there, it is up to us to use them. if you put in more effort, you will do "better" than me. it is not predicated on how many fatories or lots or resources i have horded, not up to our factory fleet to grind out product as we sleep or seduce twi'lek chicks.
i have made good money, have a steady stream of traffic to my shop, and have hopes for long-term success. i make good quality stuff by all reports. i get a good bit of repeat business. and that is all for stock stuff, of which i sometimes run low. and my competitor sells it instead. very cool. heck, you sold some product while i was flying last night.
i do not know a shipwright who has quit, though i am sure there are some, and will be more. but i can say one thing with confidence: they did not quit due to lack of demand or due to massively stocked competitors with whom they simply could not compete. maybe they quit because it was too labor intensive. maybe they did not want to advertise or scrounge for resources. they have an array of other craftin options where they can mostly make schematics and go do other things. and i wish them well in so doing.
PetaByte32 wrote:
Niacia wrote:
Sure, that is, what most of the people want. This means, that the similarity argument might not be a good one. Still, the fact remains, that you are one of a very small number wanting factory support but no force conversion.
Anyway, the irony cuts both ways...
People wanting factories argue, there should be factories, because all other professions do have factories. Yet at the same time some people do not want force conversion, because SW should be different from other professions.
So what conclusions should we draw?
1) These are two very different issues.
2) Similarity to other professions is not a good argument. Neither for factories, nor for force conversion.
Regards
Niacia
Want to make the ultimate compromise? Everyone should stop making Shipwright a buffet. This isnt sizzler. Take it all or none of it. We shouldnt pick and choose. So either make the profession like all the others (factory support, force conversion, skill tapes, tailor made crafting belts, FS bonuses, etc) or none at all (keep it as it is).
Works for me. I am sure if we all could only select one of the two with no inbetween compromise, we would keep it as it is.
Tyranus
but you would not be satisfied with your own proposal. if we all said "yes!" you would immediately resume lobbying for more factory support. the very definition of a straw man.
and you surely see that fsxp has nothing at all to do with the operation of any profession, crafting or otherwise. in my view, one should be able to convert all xp to fsxp, including pilot xp. i can only guess at the reasons that pilots and shipwrights were excluded from this. i am sure they thought that with the influx of pilots and shipwrights and the early demand for product, fsxp would be accumulated too rapidly.
all they need do is make the conversion factor favorable to their game plan. and this will probably happen to some degree or other, in my view.
Isrem wrote:
Actually, is it really that hard to find stuff? I hit master shipwright about a week ago. Put on my master shipwright title. So far, I did not have a single tell due to my title. If the situation was as desperate as some people are describing it, I sureley would have had more then one tell.
Somehow, I cannot believe, the situation is as bad as some people want me to believe.
Regards
Niacia
As soon as I log on I get around 4 tells at the same time ... I would say it is desperate.
maybe it varies by server, but i get some tells, not a lot. and i sell a steady, but not incredible volume every day. i advertise in theed, coronet, bestine, mos eisley, and moenia on a rotating basis with the help of friends. i listed my shop in the thread here. and my customers at least pretend to think my goods are of high quality.i am crafting around 4-500 items per week to keep up, i imagine, but it is just a guess.
i have not had pilots tell me they cannot find what they need. and frequently they get great loot to supplement what they buy on the ground.
it will balance out more with a bit of time and after the holidays.
PetaByte32 wrote:
Mr_Desert wrote:
Shipwright is all about planning. currently i have over 850 crafted componts on my vendor and its popular as you like. You have to craft every now and then, like 15 weapons here, 20 armours there. Doing it little by little builds you stock level up. Also you have to plan ahead with your compont production. With over 100 engines on my vendor I already have 50 overdrivers for each in reserve and added more to the factories today.
Its not armorsmith you know
Ok now imagine your vendor was really popular. I mean constantly getting raped everyday. Each time you log in, you find the vendor empty. And you got to keep that vendor full all the time. Be a little different wouldnt it?
Tyranus
wow,now your are asking us to fantasize? my business is so successful that i sell everything i make? YEEEHAW! it would be every business person's dream. sounds to me like you should quit whining, craft as much as is fun for you, and spend plenty of time playing!
remember, you do not "got to" do anything... it is a game. do as much as you enjoy, and be happy that you are so successful.
Niacia wrote:
Kinot,
At the moment, we have partial factory support. To me, this seems to be working quite well. But it probably still is to early for a final judgement.
Yes, there might be something in between, with still a little more factory support, which might work even better. Only, I am not sure, this is the way to go.
The main reason, I see for more factory support is, that people do not want to craft, but want to do other things instead. Which I might not agree on, but which is understandable. For me, it seems sensible, that a crafter spends his time with crafting related stuff, not with combat, or whatever.
How about this approach:
Instaed of more factory support, make building things more interesting, more challenging. This would mean, remove the experimentation window as it is today, and replace it with a kind of minigame, preferable a multitude of minigames. I liked those little games the use in the phase 1 jedi crafting missions. Make those minigames more challenging.
Remove the busywork as RedDestiny call ist, and replace it with content.
What would the pro factory players think of such an approach?
Regards
Niacia
This would not solve anything. The real problem, as I see it, is *not* that it takes a long time to hand craft. The real problem is that the crafting process is clearly not intended to be based solely on hand crafting. Factories are an integral part of the crafting process. Add to this that I still believe factories would not hurt anybody. It doesn't hurt anybody in other crafting professions as I see it. So it will not hurt in the shipwright profession either. Factories are a plus for everybody. It can benefit both power-gamers and casual gamers.
pervel wrote:
Niacia wrote:
Kinot,
At the moment, we have partial factory support. To me, this seems to be working quite well. But it probably still is to early for a final judgement.
Yes, there might be something in between, with still a little more factory support, which might work even better. Only, I am not sure, this is the way to go.
The main reason, I see for more factory support is, that people do not want to craft, but want to do other things instead. Which I might not agree on, but which is understandable. For me, it seems sensible, that a crafter spends his time with crafting related stuff, not with combat, or whatever.
How about this approach:
Instaed of more factory support, make building things more interesting, more challenging. This would mean, remove the experimentation window as it is today, and replace it with a kind of minigame, preferable a multitude of minigames. I liked those little games the use in the phase 1 jedi crafting missions. Make those minigames more challenging.
Remove the busywork as RedDestiny call ist, and replace it with content.
What would the pro factory players think of such an approach?
Regards
NiaciaThis would not solve anything. The real problem, as I see it, is *not* that it takes a long time to hand craft. The real problem is that the crafting process is clearly not intended to be based solely on hand crafting. Factories are an integral part of the crafting process. Add to this that I still believe factories would not hurt anybody. It doesn't hurt anybody in other crafting professions as I see it. So it will not hurt in the shipwright profession either. Factories are a plus for everybody. It can benefit both power-gamers and casual gamers.
In that other thread I just responded to, you say, that you feel, most of the factory haters are medicore crafters, who would be hurt, if you could produce more, as then it would become clear, that their quality is less.
You are contradicting yourself.
And no, a factory gives not equal benefits to everybody. It gives greater benefits to people with more lots. If you really were limited to your own lots and there was no lot trading (neither cross server, nor cross account) and there were no resource dealers, then factory were equal opprotunity for everybody. But as soon, as people have access to different numbers of lots, this changes...
Regards
Niacia
Niacia wrote:
Kinot,
At the moment, we have partial factory support. To me, this seems to be working quite well. But it probably still is to early for a final judgement.
Yes, there might be something in between, with still a little more factory support, which might work even better. Only, I am not sure, this is the way to go.
The main reason, I see for more factory support is, that people do not want to craft, but want to do other things instead. Which I might not agree on, but which is understandable. For me, it seems sensible, that a crafter spends his time with crafting related stuff, not with combat, or whatever.
How about this approach:
Instaed of more factory support, make building things more interesting, more challenging. This would mean, remove the experimentation window as it is today, and replace it with a kind of minigame, preferable a multitude of minigames. I liked those little games the use in the phase 1 jedi crafting missions. Make those minigames more challenging.
Remove the busywork as RedDestiny call ist, and replace it with content.
What would the pro factory players think of such an approach?
Regards
Niacia
I truly appreciate that you are trying to understand my point of view. I do understand why you don't want more factory support, but I feel the current level is too low. Your suggestion, while interesting (and fun!) would only make a lot of crafters who are really into the business aspect of crafting unhappy. Any game is gonna take more time than pure numbers (or it probably won't be a fun game), and that is gonna make a lot of people howl. I likeyouridea though.
My issue is that it is all about time in a combat oriented game world. Crafters are left holding the bag when it comes to actual content, excluding the jedi missions...which you need either massive support or to be a combat profession to become. Since the game is so massively geared towards combat roles, non-combat players are left little choice but to join the frenzy and pick up combat roles or be left out of most of the game's content. Anything that gives a crafter the ability to succeed and still leaves them time to participate in the rest of the game is a good thing. Factories do that. I agree that support for other crafting professions is unbalanced and has damaged the player economy immensely...and so have all the various tweaks and changes that have lead to people being able to solo very high level missions and get massive payouts. They broke that camel, and they are working to do the same with factory support I'd bet. ButI really think there is a better solution than to keep the crafter frombeing able to usefactories to produce everything he can make. I think that limiting the runs to far less than 25 for anything that is not considered a consumable is a good start. I also think that adding 1-5% additional resources per item created for consumables (and I mean single shot multi-items, grenades, missiles, disposeable weapons like missile launchers, etc. not armor or decay items) and possibly 5-10% additional resources for decay items would be a better way to control how much an individual can produce even with a large amount of support from a guild or such. It makes the cost of creating a run of that 3 amazing successes item much more in keeping wih getting that same quality back out of a factory, and also limits the number of those items in circulation.
Thisgives the players who want to use factories to give themselves more time todo other thingsan option that is not the equivalent of "don't like it, quit", and yet gives other players the option of gettingbetter returnfor their time, resources and money if they choose not to use factories and still allows them compete in the marketplace since factory made items will now have a higher cost-basis to be made up for in the sale price. They have to factor in the schematic's resources, the extra resources per item and the fact that they only have X number of that item to recover those losses with, thus making standardized, high quality items much more expensive than one offs that might not be quite as good, but are acceptable and even preferrable to the average player who is not able or willingto buy such extravagant items.
First SW have limited factory suport which if what I am reading is what you are asking for by own words. Are you insted wanting full factory suport?
Now another thing is that part of SWG has been from the begining interdependance between players. In the past it has been the armorsmiths needing items from tailors stuff along that line. Now the interdependance is with other shipwrights. The devs stated early on that would be very hard for a single shipwright to keep up with demand and seems that they were right about it. One person should not be able to make and produce everthing.
Working with others form up a shop and work on making a couple of specific items, someone makses the chasis some make reactors some make weapons. Shuffle the jobs around based on demand and needs. Also when you focus on one aspect can also focus your respurce gathering based on that product making you more efficent at the job.
Now if you want to be the solo non social type of player where you can run off product and drop on vendor and sell it while you sleep or work or play an alt then that is your play style and one that the devs have stated they do not want to promote in a game that is built around hundreds of people interacting.
As a solo SW if you can not keep up with demand options you have have been stated such as the price raise or leaving or if you are swamped let the customers know that you are swamped and offer to send them to someone else who might not be too swamped. That whole comunity thing at work again.
I myself am not for more factory suport if it means making factorys just like the other crafters. Now some ideas that could change my mind would be to add factory suport for the chasis, something that was for back in beta when this same discusion went on for i think it was like 80 pages. But do not add it for the regular componets unless do a few other things. One thing is make a ship factory, something huge like large house size footprint. Takes up more than one lot and is slow. Make crafting items from a factory take 10x longer than from the by hand. Not based on any real world reason just because for the cponvience of nothaving to craft you should pay for that in some form other than just the loss of resources for one schematic. Limit the size of factory runs to 100 this can be easily done b making the items not come out crated like some of the arch items are. As such a factory can hold only 100 at a time. Have a bonus to stats for hand crafting an item. When you make a prototype have the stats adjusted for the better due to the care taken in hand crafting. Or lower the stats from a factory due to the same lack of personal touch. With those changes would be for adding full factory suport but just because one person can not suply the demands of the whole server does not seem to be a good enough argument for it. I would love to see a metric report of just how many SW there are per server. Sure there more than enough out there to suply the need. Problem is have a few who want all the business and do not want to share with anyone. It is this type that seems in my oppion to want the full factry suport so tht they can keep up with the demands of the entire server by them self.
Would it not be better for the economy to when you are busy or out of stock to point to say another SW in your guild or town and increase the awarenes that your location has multiple shops around thus more likely to attract others and build business not for just self but for your companions in the guild or city? Or is it that people want all the business just for themselves and be the next stryker of the shipwrights?
Question that I wonder is why did you become a Shipwright?
Many did it as the next big money maker profession. It is the new FOTM proff. Myself I like crafting. Like the ability to tinker and addjust and manipulate all the stuff in SW. It make it much more than just a click and slam a button that some have called it.
sbob wrote:
Now if you want to be the solo non social type of player where you can run off product and drop on vendor and sell it while you sleep or work or play an alt then that is your play style and one that the devs have stated they do not want to promote in a game that is built around hundreds of people interacting.
sbob wrote:
what about cross server lot swaps of say oh...factories?
Yea? What about them? You still need the good resources to make products. Having 50 factories doesn't help you if you don't have the resources.
Kinot33 wrote:
My issue is that it is all about time in a combat oriented game world. Crafters are left holding the bag when it comes to actual content, excluding the jedi missions...which you need either massive support or to be a combat profession to become. Since the game is so massively geared towards combat roles, non-combat players are left little choice but to join the frenzy and pick up combat roles or be left out of most of the game's content.
That is nonsense, maybe if you are playing a crafter, but don't actually enjoy being a crafter you may feel that, but for those of us who play crafters because we actually enjoy it there is loads of content built into the professions.
Resource surveying, harvesting and management is a game all on its own, keeping track on what is available, figuring out if it is better than your current stuff, finding a good spot is all part of this game and is fun.
Then we have all the options available to most crafters, all the many different ways to make things, the possible options and varied experimentation to get the result you want. Most of the armor i craft never gets mass produced, it is experimental stuff that I make to try out different options.
Then we have sub-component stock management, this is a significant task to an architect who doesn't mass produce finished products, other crafts have similar needs...
Finally you have running your shop, interacting with customers, managing stock levels etc.
As an example I spent most of last night surveying for resources, stock checking and chatting to a few customers, it was all fun to me, all part of being a crafter.
If you want to be able to mass produce as much stuff as possible with as little input then you are missing the point of being a crafter and it is no wonder that you are not enjoying all the crafting involved in Shipwright. If you don't want to craft, then don't be a crafter, there are plenty who do want to craft and in SW they are getting a chance without being driven to bankruptcy by the mass producing factory wielding firms of business men who have lost the joy of pure 'crafting'