Scout Archive

The whole survival tree is a bit lame in general to be honest, unless camps start doing rather more than they do right now, maybe give the bigger camps their own mission terminals or something, that would be a hell of a useful skill (although I would put these into the ranger camps to be honest, the scout camps are still a little too small).

I'm glad this change is coming into effect, I still need novice scout to harvest resrouces, but it means that when I switch over to novice artisan to run surveys for med chemicals, I won't have to walk everywhere.

Scouting should be a profession you CHOOSE to do, not simply be one of the things you do because you HAVE to - same goes for all professions really.

At least from this patch on when I see a scout I'll know it's because it's something they want to do, rather than because they haven't got a choice.

i was under the impression that the whole point of camps were that they were a little oasies of civilisation in the wild, a place were you could do all the things that are usualy only possible in cities, such as healing, entertaining, use crafting stations (in the ranger camps) and the calling of pets and vehicles. while i thought that master artisans/CH's should be able to call speeders/pets without a camp, it makes no sense to lift one of the restricitons and not all.
how long before all of the camps usefullness is removed?
is there now actualy any point to the basic camp at all, other than being just a grinding tool to reach higher skill levels?

I'm very happy about this change, I won't deny that.

However, since some of you just had the rug pulled out from under you, I suggest a new focus: Let's help make camps worthwhile like they should have been all along.

The Ranger boards currently have two proposals on how to improve camps, both with good ideas that can be used in one another. We have the Modular Camp version 4 which has had a ton of work put in to it, and an Alternate Proposal by Machs. He decided to defer to the modular idea for now, but I think there are still some good ideas in the thread.

N'Raas would like to submit this idea soon, so I recommend you give your input quickly. While this may seem like a setback to our abilities, it is all the more reason for the devs to sit down and revamp camps. Take advantage of this time because it can be a great opportunity for us.

Repost from SWG Discussion:

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Holocronwrote:

/snip

That said, I'd be reluctant to change how it works because to my mind, it

1. reinforces soloing in a game that arguably has too much of it. Interdependence between players out in the wilderness is already fairly minimized. Scouts become significantly less worthwhile with this change.
   
2. reinforces p.o.k.e.m.o.n.ing it everywhere. It makes it significantly easier and in fact more powerful, as I see it.
   
3. even with vehicles, it makes things easier as well. And I worry about the game being too easy, overall.

Now, you may tell me that I am on crack as regards thesethings, of course. Like I said, I am out of touch.

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Unfortunately this change is taking place because the masses (the vocal one's on the boards, not actual players since most players don't read the boards) have spoken. There are KNOWN work-arounds for combat and auto-storing. What is at stake here is 15 skill pts, 2 professions loosing their viability (Rangers are in here too) and loosing a professional benefit to the cries of the masses.

Peeps are angry because they have to spend 15 skill points for Novice Scout to be able to use a camp when it's a requirement tocall a pet, mount or speeder in the wilderness. Both TH and Holocron stated that this ability is a perk of scouts. It makes us viable in groups. Removing this requirement gives the vocal masses an extra 15 skill points. I'm seriously thinking of starting a thread to allow me to use stimpacks without being a novice medic. If I got enough traffic I think I would win.

With the introduction of vehicles and, to a much lesser degree mounts, the wilderness professions are loosing their viability.Wayfaring is already next to useless (and soon to become useless whenCamo doesn't work against NPC's) in the Ranger line and Frontiering/Survival is next on the list. The aggro repeling in camps is broke and even when it works the benefits are negligible. The healing modifiers are also neglible when everyone has a droid with a much better modifier. Our only usefulness to the community now is Tracking/Hunting and Exploration. Trapping is arguably good for crowd control on lesser creatures.

TH and Holocron caved on this isssue ONLY because of the amount of traffic the thread generated. There is no balancing issue here. The arguments put forward to remove this requirement were based largly on auto-store and combat. This is not a serious game-play issue. It is giving a professional perk away plain and simple.

I'm disappointed that this is the outcome of that thread.

All arguments to keep this benefit within the wilderness community were already made by TH and Holocron themselves. Anything else is moot at this point IMHO.

On a brighter note: less scouts and rangers will mean prices for hides and meat will rise

It's about time this change was made.

If camps are to be worthwhile, they need to be so for positive reasons, not just as a mechanism for griefing non-scouts.

1. Camps should repel aggro. They're supposed to, but they don't. Fix this. Lower level camps should give lower aggro resisttance, but should confer a small devensive bonus if aggor mobs descend on them.

2. Camps should not vanish when the owner goes into combat. They should persist and act as bases as operations as they were apparently intended to.

3. Allow camps to act as augmentations to crafting, similar to the way they allow autohealing in the wilderness. Let them heal BF at a reduced rate than a cantina if an entertainer is present, the way they were advertised to do in beta.

Many of the "masses" that OberSenf derides are SCOUTS! CHs who are tired of having to call their pets over and over again due to warping and pathing bugs, not to mention client and server crashes. I don't know of anyone in game on Ahazi who will not greet this change warmly.

The notion that this is some sort of incredibly imporant perk of the scout profession eludes me, and every toon I've ever created if not out of the box was a scout grabbed scout at the earliest opportunity. Scouting's draw is terrain negotiation and harvesting abilty. They're at the core. Camping is an add on, something that is to be grinded through to get to master, or in the case of Squad Leaders, as a prerequisite to their novice box.

This chance doesn't even remotely affect rangers, hell it barely affects scouts (proper scouts, not those of us who had to drop 15 points just to call a vehicle).

I have NEVER, EVER, run around yelling for a ranger because I wanted to drop a camp, nor have I run around looking for a scout to be able to drop a camp, like everyone else I just grinned and beared having to waste 15 skill points on being able to put up a tent.

The survival line as it stands is worthless, you don't need to learn it for any reason other than as a prerequisite for other professions, even if you do learn it (and I did- novice squad leader) you still only drop basic camps, because the higher level ones are pointless and cost more resources (I have a food/chem crafting station in my droid, why would I want to bother with a ranger camp for one ?)

What next ? We have to drop a camp to survey ? How about change weapons ? Maybe we should have to camp before we can read the planetary map ?

The issue here is that camps have only one use at the moment and that is to call pets/vehicles and other things that people actually WANT.

Personally I would have preferred that the basic camp kit could be set up (but not crafted) by non-scouts, but the current solution is still infinitely better than having to waste 15 skill points just to get around a stupid game design mechanic.

As an aside, I still need the scout skill to harvest meat, anyone who uses animal based organics in crafting will still need novice scout, I am not advocating letting everyone be able to skin/gut creatures, this is more than enough reason for the scout skill on it's own in my estimation and *IS* worth 15 points.

Sio,

I have no contempt for being vocal on the boards. I'm being vocal now. What I don't agreewith is taking a known perk of my profession away simply because it's inconvenient for our fellow scouts and impossible for non-scouts.A good amount ofposters to that thread in SWG Discussion were scouts. It is my opinion a sizeable amount were Scout 0,0,0,0 judging from the posts not discussing other impacts within the scouting community and stating the obvious 'forcing' to spend 15 skill points for a skill they rarely use. I don't know that for a fact. I did see a good amount of CH's in there.

I agree camps need a re-vamp. I'm all for it. I like the modular camp idea that NRass has going and, in general, I like the ideas being posted on where Ranger is headed as a profession. I'm well aware that professions in this game are going to change and evolve. It's one of the main reasons I play a MMORPG versus a console.

I disagree with removing a perk (I don't think it's neccesarily an incredibly important one but some may) from a profession simply because people have to have at least a novice level to use it. That's why I stated I should start a thread to allow me to use stims without being a Novice Medic. How many people are Medic 0,0,0,0? I can practically guarantee a sizeable numberin that regardjust from my own experience. Of course I'm not actually for taking that perk away from Medics as that would go against my own opinions.

I don't feel that allowing anyone to use basic camps is a viable solution. The heart of the argument is camps in-and-of-themselves are a pain and need to be taken out of the equation. Allowing players to utilize scout crafted camps is not, from what I read, what the community is looking for here.

Ok, let's look at it this way;

What if you had to be artisan 0000 to get the basic camp schematic ?

.. because otherwise Artisans would feel slighted that scouts were intruding on their domain of making stuff.

It makes no sense right ?

Just like it makes no sense that you'd have to drop a camp to call a vehicle (now, I *don't* agree with being able to call non-mount pets and droids without a camp, but this is the solution on the table right now).

Surely you have scout for other reasons than being able to call vehicles ? You're not upset that you have scout 0000 and want to do stuff that other professions can't ?

Scout 0000 is more of an aside to a real character, than an integral part of that character. Medic 0000 only has one function and that is to heal damage, you don't have to (for example) be Medic 0000 just to enter a hospital, as that would be an equally pointless design mechanic.

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WarFerret wrote:
Ok, let's look at it this way;

What if you had to be artisan 0000 to get the basic camp schematic ?

.. because otherwise Artisans would feel slighted that scouts were intruding on their domain of making stuff.

It makes no sense right ?

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Correct. Medics, CMs and Docs would also be affected by this. What a pain that would be.

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WarFerret wrote:

Surely you have scout for other reasons than being able to call vehicles ? You're not upset that you have scout 0000 and want to do stuff that other professions can't ?

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Yes I do. Being a Ranger is what I do (my job if you will) in the community. Being a TKA is how I get it done. Of course I'm upset a professional perk is being removed. That's whyI take up a profession. Do I want to do stuff others can't? Well, not really I don't think. I feel that if you want to call a pet/vehicle in the wild that you should have to have some wilderness experience to do so. That's just MHO. I don't like the perk being removed. It's akin to loosing my Warcry ability at Novice Brawler.

OberSenf,

As a CH,I can tell you that the camping requirement to call pets is not a matter of convenience.

Do you have any idea how many bugs are associated with creature pets that the devs have been ignoring in favor of nerfing the poodoo out of CH? Warping, pathing, autostoring in combat, you name it, we suffer from it. Then, to get the pet back that went away because of one of these bugs, we have to search around for a spot far enough away from a lair or a harvester to throw up a camp just to bring back the pet we already had out?

The CH forum is overcome with joy right now at this announcement, and every last one of them, as you well know, is a scout giving up this 'perk'. Not one of them will miss it.

I'll still use camps for healing out in the wilderness, and for RP, even though I have two medical droids that convey better healing than a camp. Camps make great rally points after a tough battle, a place to catch your breath. They'll be even better if aggro repellant actually works.

Furthermore, the camping requirement for non-scouts going away isn't a matter of convenience, either. In a game as unstable and buggy as SWG (and every patch announcing increased stability has made it less so) it's a game-breaking "feature" for them.

If pet calling is the only reason to camp, then the wilderness lines ARE lame andnothing but tedium. Make them worthwhile. Make them wanted. How about if you craft something in a camp, the odds of a crit fail are significantly reduced? Heck, this may make scouts VERY popular with many crafters and even Jedi!

Sio,

No, I do not know all of the bugs associated with pets. I've only been to the CH forums once with a question. The only experience I have is with my Murra (used to be a Kahmurra ), lesser Dewback mount and Probot. I have the usual issues of warping occasionally, not following, not attacking sometimes, getting stuck on rocks and the such (Murras are INCREDIBLY slow on mountain sides). I work around them. I go slow and watch where I'm going. I've had my speeder auto-store in the middle of no-where and warp me hundreds of meters in any given direction. I avoid buildings now and inside of cities. This has worked for me and people I have spoken to in-game. Frustrating: yes. Game-breaking:no.

I totally agree with you on the issue of camps needing a re-vamp. They are sorely lacking in usefulness presently (as far as game mechanics are concerned and not RP) and now they are even more useless. That is one of the reasons I don't agree with this change; however, I do know I'm in the minority with this opinion judging by the posts I've read.

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OberSenf wrote:
Repost from SWG Discussion:

...2 professions loosing their viability (Rangers are in here too)...

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Are you suggesting that the only thing that made scouts and rangers viable is that you need one around tocall your vehicle in the wild???

How about making high CPU saleson good meat for doctors, or hides for tailors and armorsmiths?

How about rangers helping big game hunters locate specific animals, or even locate people?

How about having some of the best state-applying combat items (traps) in the game? I've seen some prettypowerful traps used on creatures by rangers, and I know it helped the battle andI was grateful for it.

I think there's a lot more to being a scout than just being "that guy whomakes the tent when it's time to drive home."