Rifleman Archive
Thread: Nerf This.
Waste93 wrote:
DarkShade9 wrote:
I just dont understand this, why shouldnt riflemen be nerfed if changes to the game (not riflemen) allow them to become overpowered in comparison to other professions ?.
That makes little sense. You are saying to punish Rifleman for something they haven't done. But not fix the problems that caused it to occur.
Were Rifleman overpowered in the begining? No. Why not? Do you see why the problem isn't Rifleman. It's mostly buffs.
when will you understand!!!. Buffs are overpowered, armour is overpowered. together they make riflemen overpowered. Solution, nerf buffs and armour (combat balance - several months away) or nerf riflemen into line with everyone else until then, id rather have balance now than wait even longer.
All this bull $hit about buffs and armour etc being overpowered, may be true, but itmeans nothing, because the fact is riflemen is overpowered in this environment.
No. You fix the problem. If you lower buffs that makes HAM costs a factor again.A disadvantage for Rifleman.ahahah, a disadvantage for riflemen, your kidding right, if buffs are nerfed ull still have brandy,.youll still have muon and canape, ahisra etc.it wont affect you much at all. What about carbineers who need those buffs to prevent themselves fromcommiting suicide? and believe me, nothing (spice/food)that can sustain a carbineers ham lasts more than 10 mins or so.It you also reduce armor then you have more weapons being useful. Which is a net gain for the majority. From your comment it appears that you are concerned here only about PvP. If you lowered Rifleman to the other levels how long would PvP combat last? Excessively long. so what you are saying is that riflemen help in keeping pvp short by killing everyone quickly, not overpowered at all huh.
The problem with what you want is that everyone wants to be able to do PvP indefinately. Or just as long as they don't lose. Going your route means almost no damage in PvP since noone would be able to do much damage and that damage could easily be healed.
when there are no riflemen present, does pvp last indefinetly?
This is no fault of riflemen themselves, just the chages to the game but that makes no difference. they have higher accuracy,
Not true. Riflemans accuracy is nearlythe same as Pistoleer and Carbineer. pause, read my statement again, it may be nearly the same, but it is still better
are faster,
Again not true. I can show you easily how other ranged combat professions can hit the speed cap much sooner than a Rifleman can. Facts : base master riflemen speed with master marksman = 90. base pistoleer speed without master marksman =74. base master carbinearspeed without master marksmem = 60.
have a better dps than the other elite ranged professions,
They are suppose to have the second highest DPS. Only Commanods should be higher. It's their advantage.
and you know this how? did you design the game, do you know something more than we do? have the devs steted this at some point, or is it just your assumtpion that you should be damage dealing machines?
and are able to attack the mind with crippling efficiency.
Again this is a problem with stims and buffs. Before those did it matter that Rifleman could target Mind? No. Because others could target other areas.
It has become an issue because Health and Action are buffed a set amount while Mind is buffed a percent. That still leaves Mind as the weakest pool. Add in that you can easily heal Health and Action with stims and you've set up a system where anyone with any common sense is going to target Mind.
true, thismakes riflemen overpowered until buffs and armour are nerfed ( comabat balance)
In the games current state that makes them overpowered, and personally im not prepared to wait for the perpetually elusive combat balance.
So why not fix what actually made them overpowered? Lower armor resists and drop Doc buffs to be in line with Entertainer buffs. Then throw in some Mind stims and you're set. Easy solution.
it may be easy, but its still a while till the combat balance, why should we have to put up with overpowered profs in the current system for an indefinate period.
But lets not forget that all your complaints are about PvP. Something that most people don't do. You also have to look at what your nerf call would do to PvE which is what the majority do.
tell me, what would it do to pve? bring riflemens damage into line with all the other elite ranged profs, good god, what a trevesty, riflemen can no longer outdamagage everyone and their mother.
How many nerfs in this game have been because of PvP? How many because of PvE? You don't nerf things for the minority and have it adversely effect the majority. Not if you want to keep making money which is the real object of this game. You can't do that by alienating the larger player base.
Riflemen are stronger in pvp and in pve than every other elite ranged prof, the thing is, there's no buffs or armour to blame it on in pve.
Message Edited by DarkShade9 on 08-03-2004 09:34 PM
DarkShade9 wrote:
Waste93 wrote:
DarkShade9 wrote:
when will you understand!!!. Buffs are overpowered, armour is overpowered. together they make riflemen overpowered. Solution, nerf buffs and armour (combat balance - several months away) or nerf riflemen into line with everyone else until then, id rather have balance now than wait even longer.
And you'll see that many Riflemen have been complaining about the power of armor and buffs.
ahahah, a disadvantage for riflemen, your kidding right, if buffs are nerfed ull still have brandy,.youll still have muon and canape, ahisra etc.it wont affect you much at all. What about carbineers who need those buffs to prevent themselves fromcommiting suicide? and believe me, nothing (spice/food)that can sustain a carbineers ham lasts more than 10 mins or so.
Anyone can take Brandy. Also Carbineers HAM costs do need to be lowered. But also remember they have access to stim's that heal their primary pool. You say Carbineers won't last ten minutes? Then why would a Rifleman with their equivelant HAM costs.
so what you are saying is that riflemen help in keeping pvp short by killing everyone quickly, not overpowered at all huh.
Personally if you want my opinion PvP shouldn't last more than a couple shots.
pause, read my statement again, it may be nearly the same, but it is still better
Actually no. Reread my posts and you'll see I ran the numbers. End result is Pistoleers are +5 over Rifleman.
Facts : base master riflemen speed with master marksman = 90. base pistoleer speed without master marksman =74. base master carbinearspeed without master marksmem = 60.
Interesting but also not relevant unless you also mention the base speed of the weapons. Pistol base speed of about 3.0 wouldn't you say? That drops the speed to 0.78 with just Master Pistoleer. Rifle base speed about 7.5. That drops the base speed to 0.75. Hmmm. Seems about the same to me.
and you know this how? did you design the game, do you know something more than we do? have the devs steted this at some point, or is it just your assumtpion that you should be damage dealing machines?
Common sense actually. Plus twenty plus years of playing skill based RPGs. If all the DPS is suppose to be the same then defenses and status attacks should be to to maintain 'balance'.
There are three areas for the combat professions. Offense, defense, and combat multipliers (status attacks, AoE, DoTs, etc).
Professions will be high in some areas and lower in others.
true, thismakes riflemen overpowered until buffs and armour are nerfed ( comabat balance)
The Combat Revamp is also suppose to be introducing Mind stims.
it may be easy, but its still a while till the combat balance, why should we have to put up with overpowered profs in the current system for an indefinate period.
Because any changes now still won't achieve your 'balance'. They would be minor fixes and require either changes or removal once the Combat Revamp comes in. Which means spending time coding and bug hunting for something that is only going to be temporary.
tell me, what would it do to pve? bring riflemens damage into line with all the other elite ranged profs, good god, what a trevesty, riflemen can no longer outdamagage everyone and their mother.
It makes Rifleman one shot wonders. They would have to be prone and immobile to use some of their best shots. Which would also mean that the Rifleman would be the only ranged profession that could not kite. Damage is not suppose to be the same across the board. This is a skill based profession system. It isn't a class based one.
Riflemen are stronger in pvp and in pve than every other elite ranged prof, the thing is, there's no buffs or armour to blame it on in pve.
Again you are incorrect. Buffs and armor are also the problem in PvE.
DarkShade9 wrote:
Riflemen are stronger in pvp and in pve than every other elite ranged prof, the thing is, there's no buffs or armour to blame it on in pve.
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
DarkShade9 wrote:Riflemen are stronger in pvp and in pve than every other elite ranged prof, the thing is, there's no buffs or armour to blame it on in pve.
What?! Wow, and what game is it you play again?
You know if I didnt have buffs with my rifle I would get my ass kicked so quick. Buffs allow me to spam specials lol. Can we really ask for our corripsondent to delete threads like this to avoid saying crap over and over again? You know make one huge post with out side one for their side and then throw it at the devs. Cause they aint gonna be happy until they can kill is in 5 seconds.
Personally I wouldn't like to see the Correspondent have that ability. I think it's helpful to have posts like that so we can be constantly reminded of the ignorance. It also helps us keep on our toes and not become complacent.
LiakyK wrote:
Can we really ask for our corripsondent to delete threads like this to avoid saying crap over and over again? You know make one huge post with out side one for their side and then throw it at the devs. Cause they aint gonna be happy until they can kill is in 5 seconds.
LiakyK wrote:
Hell Waste, we do this fight at least once a week.
I know. It keeps us in practice. 
Though getting into a debate with an unarmed opponent isn't really fair. 
Waste93 wrote:
DarkShade9 wrote:
Waste93 wrote:
DarkShade9 wrote:
when will you understand!!!. Buffs are overpowered, armour is overpowered. together they make riflemen overpowered. Solution, nerf buffs and armour (combat balance - several months away) or nerf riflemen into line with everyone else until then, id rather have balance now than wait even longer.
And you'll see that many Riflemen have been complaining about the power of armor and buffs.
you point being? everyone is complaining about buffs and armour.
ahahah, a disadvantage for riflemen, your kidding right, if buffs are nerfed ull still have brandy,.youll still have muon and canape, ahisra etc.it wont affect you much at all. What about carbineers who need those buffs to prevent themselves fromcommiting suicide? and believe me, nothing (spice/food)that can sustain a carbineers ham lasts more than 10 mins or so.
Anyone can take Brandy. Also Carbineers HAM costs do need to be lowered. But also remember they have access to stim's that heal their primary pool. if we could keep this discussion to just what the base professions can do please. becaus of course riflemen has acces to cm, nuff said. You say Carbineers won't last ten minutes? Then why would a Rifleman with their equivelant HAM costs. because the majority of rifle ham cost goes to the mind, with the buff nerfs you described, mind enhancing buffs and stim would not be affected, thus increasing every other profsham penalty whilst keepingriflemens practically the same.
i know everyone can take brandy.
so what you are saying is that riflemen help in keeping pvp short by killing everyone quickly, not overpowered at all huh.
Personally if you want my opinion PvP shouldn't last more than a couple shots.
ok, when it works both ways ill bite, but atm its riflemen killing in a couple of shots and everyone else getting it up the a$$.
pause, read my statement again, it may be nearly the same, but it is still better
Actually no. Reread my posts and you'll see I ran the numbers. End result is Pistoleers are +5 over Rifleman.
umm what the hell are you talking about. a master pistoleer has 95 accuracy, a master riflemen has 160................ actually rereading my statement, i have to say that you are completely and utterly wrong, there not even nearly the same.
Facts : base master riflemen speed with master marksman = 90. base pistoleer speed without master marksman =74. base master carbinearspeed without master marksmem = 60.
Interesting but also not relevant unless you also mention the base speed of the weapons. Pistol base speed of about 3.0 wouldn't you say? That drops the speed to 0.78 with just Master Pistoleer. Rifle base speed about 7.5. That drops the base speed to 0.75. Hmmm. Seems about the same to me.
im afraid to make an effective argument you will have to get some real numbers rather than pluckingsome convieniently fitting onesout of the air. And why should riflemen be as fast as pistoleer, i know you talkabout the factthat theres no mechanical reason yadayada, but combined rifle accuracy speed and damage far surpass the benefits gained from any other elite ranged prof. you say carbineer has states, what good are states when hes being mind incapped in 5 seconds. pistoleer has defence, what good is defence when your accuracy practically negates it. riflemen may have been designed to be heavy hitters, but they are not ment to be the rulers of ranged pvp, no one profession is.
and you know this how? did you design the game, do you know something more than we do? have the devs steted this at some point, or is it just your assumtpion that you should be damage dealing machines?
Common sense actually. Plus twenty plus years of playing skill based RPGs. If all the DPS is suppose to be the same then defenses and status attacks should be to to maintain 'balance'.
There are three areas for the combat professions. Offense, defense, and combat multipliers (status attacks, AoE, DoTs, etc).
Professions will be high in some areas and lower in others.
true, but currently you highs outweigh all the opther highs offered by elite rangedprofs by quite a way
true, thismakes riflemen overpowered until buffs and armour are nerfed ( comabat balance)
The Combat Revamp is also suppose to be introducing Mind stims.
Speculation.
it may be easy, but its still a while till the combat balance, why should we have to put up with overpowered profs in the current system for an indefinate period.
Because any changes now still won't achieve your 'balance'. They would be minor fixes and require either changes or removal once the Combat Revamp comes in. Which means spending time coding and bug hunting for something that is only going to be temporary.
id prefer atemporary fix that improves my pvp expirience nowrather than wait for the combat balance in the name of efficiency thanks.
tell me, what would it do to pve? bring riflemens damage into line with all the other elite ranged profs, good god, what a trevesty, riflemen can no longer outdamagage everyone and their mother.
It makes Rifleman one shot wonders. They would have to be prone and immobile to use some of their best shots. Which would also mean that the Rifleman would be the only ranged profession that could not kite. Damage is not suppose to be the same across the board. This is a skill based profession system. It isn't a class based one.
i never suggested making riflemen any of the things you mentioned. i have not described at all anywhere how i would do what i am proposing. you have just assumed that whatever it is it will result in what you have described above.
as an example ifriflemens damage were to bereduced it wouldresult in none of the things above. im not saying make everyone the same, i dont want everyone to have the same dps, the same states, speed, defense etc.
Riflemen are stronger in pvp and in pve than every other elite ranged prof, the thing is, there's no buffs or armour to blame it on in pve.
Again you are incorrect. Buffs and armor are also the problem in PvE.
yet again you are incorrect.they are not the prominent issue.if you remove buffs and armour it affects every professionjust as much as riflemen.(remember we are talking about just the soleprofessions here, this statement doesnt cover templates which include say medic or doctor).We have established that they are the main issues in pvp, but not pve. buffs and armour are the same for everyone in pve (basically), you are not fighting other peoples armour and buffs, all that really matters is dps. and if noone can compete with riflemns dps in pve what is the use of being anything but riflemen. to put states on the mob? thats all well and good, but if you cant actually kill the mob or get the looting rights, whats the point?.
Riflemenare more effective at killingmobs than both carbineers and pistoleers, and if you deny thatyou are bull$hitting.
Waste 93, id like to refer you to both of the links in my sig.
Message Edited by DarkShade9 on 08-04-2004 11:01 PM
I hear about riflemen owning PvP, on my server, though they are powerful, they surely dont own it, ask most PvPers on kettemoor, they will tell you "All you have to do is know how to kill them." Learn that...
DarkShade9 wrote:
because the majority of rifle ham cost goes to the mind, with the buff nerfs you described, mind enhancing buffs and stim would not be affected, thus increasing every other profsham penalty whilst keepingriflemens practically the same.
Stims would still work for all HAM's. Also you are forgetting that they are talking about a new system for specials. Which will handicap the high HAM costs professions more since they will get off fewer specials before it's depleted.
ok, when it works both ways ill bite, but atm its riflemen killing in a couple of shots and everyone else getting it up the a$$.
I doubt that. A couple shots? With buffs, armor, and the PvP reduction it's going to take more than a couple.
umm what the hell are you talking about. a master pistoleer has 95 accuracy, a master riflemen has 160................ actually rereading my statement, i have to say that you are completely and utterly wrong, there not even nearly the same.
You are forgetting a couple modifiers. Both Rifleman and Pistoleer have Accuracy While Moving mods. That bumps it to 170 and 125. Pistoleers also have an Accuracy While Standing +15. That bumps it to 170 and 140. You also have accuracy mods with specials themselves. Rifleman ones cap at +15. Pistoleer caps at +50. That bumps it to +185 Rifleman and +190 Pistoleer.
So yes. I do know what I'm talking about.
im afraid to make an effective argument you will have to get some real numbers rather than pluckingsome convieniently fitting onesout of the air. And why should riflemen be as fast as pistoleer, i know you talkabout the factthat theres no mechanical reason yadayada, but combined rifle accuracy speed and damage far surpass the benefits gained from any other elite ranged prof. you say carbineer has states, what good are states when hes being mind incapped in 5 seconds. pistoleer has defence, what good is defence when your accuracy practically negates it. riflemen may have been designed to be heavy hitters, but they are not ment to be the rulers of ranged pvp, no one profession is.
See above about accuracy. I did use some real numbers. A 7.5 T21 is one of the faster ones without a slice or PU. 3.0 for a pistol is about right for a Blaster is it not?
As for the rest of it. What good is the Riflemans DPS if they are suffering a Stun which lowers DPS? What is their DPS if suffering a Dizzy/KD? In the latter case it's zero.
I've always said that Pistoleers need increased defenses. But I'm glad at least that you are admiting that Rifleman are suppose to be the heavy hitters. Which means DPS isn't suppose to be the same.
true, but currently you highs outweigh all the opther highs offered by elite rangedprofs by quite a way
Because Rifleman is a working profession. How many of the other ranged professions are? Not Pistoleer or Commando that is for sure. Smugglers sure aren't. Are BH or Carbineers?
Speculation.
I believe it was stated in one of the Dev posts. Could be wrong and it could be speculation.
id prefer atemporary fix that improves my pvp expirience nowrather than wait for the combat balance in the name of efficiency thanks.
As said earlier. It's a waste of time to put in a temp fix and then remove it when the combat revamp comes in. Plus it isn't a simple hotfix you are talking about. It's going to have to be indepth and involve a large number of professions.
i never suggested making riflemen any of the things you mentioned. i have not described at all anywhere how i would do what i am proposing. you have just assumed that whatever it is it will result in what you have described above.
It's what would happen if the ideas from the original post are implemented.
as an example ifriflemens damage were to bereduced it wouldresult in none of the things above. im not saying make everyone the same, i dont want everyone to have the same dps, the same states, speed, defense etc.
But you are saying reduce the Riflemans damage so its comparable to the others. It's the same thing.
yet again you are incorrect.they are not the prominent issue.if you remove buffs and armour it affects every professionjust as much as riflemen.(remember we are talking about just the soleprofessions here, this statement doesnt cover templates which include say medic or doctor).We have established that they are the main issues in pvp, but not pve. buffs and armour are the same for everyone in pve (basically), you are not fighting other peoples armour and buffs, all that really matters is dps. and if noone can compete with riflemns dps in pve what is the use of being anything but riflemen. to put states on the mob? thats all well and good, but if you cant actually kill the mob or get the looting rights, whats the point?.
Actually the melee professions are generally the kings of PvE. CoB combined with Toughness and a Secondary Defense makes them very good in PvE.
Nor have we said to remove armor and buffs. We've said to reduce them.Which means it will effect Rifleman just as much in PvE as everyone else. However in PvP you make it so that more weapons are useful in PvP and hence more professions useful in that aspect.
Riflemenare more effective at killingmobs than both carbineers and pistoleers, and if you deny thatyou are bull$hitting.
It's going to depend on the MOB. Carbineers with their AoE KD are good at attacks some NPC's. And hence much better than Rifleman is some situations. Pistoleers also have situation where they are more advantageous.
As for your sigs. All sigs are a reflection of the person to whom they belong.
Message Edited by Waste93 on 08-05-2004 06:18 AM
XaverriJade7 wrote:
Ammadeus,
I must ask: Have you ever fought a Rifleman while neither of you were buffed or wearing high-end armor? If so, what happened? You should have won. If you have not tried this, please do. And please do not take this the wrong way, but if you cannot win against an unbuffed Rifleman, you are likely fighting very poorly. It is not hard to defeat an unbuffed Rifleman unless they are very good or you are not fighting as well as you should. Certainly, weapon quality comes into play, but if both sides are using standard weapons, the fight favors the non-Rifleman.
In my experience, there are always a few Rifleman who will 95% or more of the time against anyone. The majority of Riflemen, however, are generally the same as the majority of any other profession in that they do not always use the best of tactics. Try fighting several different Riflemen using only your base stats and without Godly armor. Some may beat you, but most should not. I am not saying Rifleman is worse than any other profession, but it is much harder to use without the buffs and armor that make it stupidly easy.
If you could get back to us with the logs of a few fights between you and some Riflemen, I am sure we can help you understand what our weaknesses are if you cannot fare well enough against them alone.
I know it is foolish of me to expect anyone to PvP without buffs or armor and you can even call me out on that. However, they will both be getting some heavy 'tweaking' after a few months and you should be fighting under the above circumstances more often than not(assuming the Dev Team does what they promise to do).
In PvE, I will not deny the a Rifleman can solo anything in the game. But without armor and buffs, the only way to do this is with concealshot. For the higher-end mobs, using this tactic is not very effective in both time and cost. When Riflemen can no longer solo everything with HS3 or SS2, you will again find yourself able to compete with them in PvE.
i understand what you and waste are saying. We want the same thing, but the thing is i want relief while we wait
A lot of people say, any good pvp'er can kill a riflemen / fotm, what happens when the riflemn is good, they win 95% of the time like you stated. I have to be at the top of my game, have the best equipment, latest tactics and whatever just to compete with the average riflemen but when the riflemen who is on top ofhis game with the best equipment and tactics comes along, i get blown out of the water along with all the other poor saps.
Buffs and armour will be nerfed in the cb, however i think a little temporary balancing to riflemen will go a long way to making pvp more enjoyable for everyone.
Message Edited by DarkShade9 on 08-05-2004 06:49 PM