Rifleman Archive
Thread: Nerf This.
Sleksheea wrote:
(Yes, and your somehow forgot to mention that the rifleman hits with much greater damage per shot, and that the rifleman has MUCH more ranged defence than the pistoleer nullifying that close accuracy comparison between the two you gave.. oh how did you forget to factor in the ranged defence mods?? Your accuracy statements are completely wrong.
No. My accuracy statements are completely accurate. Care to look at the numbers? Here they are. A Master Rifleman has the following accuracy mods. Rifle Accuracy +160, Accuracy while Moving +10, Specials accuracy +15. Grand total of +185.
Now a Master Pistoleer has the following. Pistol Accuracy +95, Accuracy while Moving +30, Accuracy while Standing +15, and Specials accuracy +50. Grand total of +190.
Pistoleer ranged defence = +7. Rifleman ranged defence = +72. This gives riflemen a 36% greater chance to hit the pistoleer than vice-versa.
Actually no. Your to hit chance caps at 95%. So lets look at the accuracy mods and then subtract the defense vs ranged. Now we are ignoring weapons accuracy mods since those depend on the weapon and the range. But in both cases the end is over 100 so it would drop to the 95% cap. Which means you have the same chance.
(LOL when is the last time you saw a commando firing the one and only AP3 weapon they have... the rocket Launcher? When have you ever even SEEN a rocket launcher? Oh, and at a fireing rate of somethin like 12 seconds delay, I would have to say that techinacally yes, they have an AP3 weapon, but realistically, no, they don't.) Don't be lame.
That is an issue about Commando weapons. In fact it's an issue about most of the Commando weapons. However your statement that only Rifleman have an AP3 weapon was not correct. As you yourself have admitted.
You also have a stun weapon that again, half the combat professions don't get. Sure pistoleer FINALLY got a geo pistol that has stun on it but compare it's damage output (inital or over time)to that of a rifleman's Jawa rifle... no contest, jawa wins. (not to mentionthe rarety of any kind of decent geo pistol).
(LOL... like anything you said here is relevant. 90% composite resiststhe same amount for kinetic and blast...90%. Your stun Jawa on the other hand is only inhibited by 40% MAX composite. Your switching the issues here... try to stick to the point. Your same damage type weapons as the pistoleer's are much more powerfull initially and over time. That's the point. Weather it's stun, heat, whatever, riflemen can shoot as fast, do more damage, and have more accuracy than pistoleers. Not to mention targeting the mind pool.These things are what makes riflemen overpowered!)
Again you are under the mistaken impression that all professions are suppose to do the same damage. They aren't Nor do Riflemen have more accuracy. See above.
The issue with Mind is that it's buffed under a different system and that it can't be healed. Most Rifleman probably wouldn't mind if it could be healed.
(Hmm... again Pistoleer = +7 ranged defence and Rifleman = +72 ranged defence. I think your seriously confused here. Don't go and try to talk about pistoleer's state defences, as were comparing riflemen and pistoleers, not TKA to pistoleers. Neither can do state effects other than bleed (pistoleer can't anyway, not sure about riflemen)... and again aa +50% to any state defence only means it takes 2x as many hits usually to stick a state on that profession. No big deal whatsoever. I'de take the ranged defence bonus anyday.
Again not true. Pistoleers have a KD attack and Riflemen have Stun and Dizzy. Also a has already been shown, the ranged defense isn't high enough on it's own to make much of a difference in the accuracy since both are above the 95% to hit cap.
LOL... are you actually going to deny this? Master pistoleers hit creatures for 700-2000 using their most damaging special stopping shot depending on the uberness of their pistol. What do master riflemen hit creatures for using their most damaging special? 4-6K? YUP!).
(LMAO... AGAIN... PISTOLEER = +7 ranged defence // Riflemen = +72 ranged defence! Sorry, pistoleer has no defence advantage what so ever vs. a rifleman!!! It's quite the opposite!
False. Pistoleers have an advantage in basically all defense mods with the exception of Ranged Defense.
P.S. I guess I agree with you that "Profession are not suppose to all have the same damage output. It's the Rifleman advantage. You aren't suppose to be able to compete with it." That's why riflemen are overpowered... almost nobody can compete with it!
Case closed.
You seem to think it should always be a 50/50 fight. It isn't suppose to. It's called have roles. It's having advantages and disadvantages. Not all professions can take advantage of anothers weakness. It's more of a rock/paper/scissors system than a 50/50 system.
Furthermore you are taking an admitadly broken profession, Pistoleer, and comparing it to one that is pretty much working. Then saying that one is overpowered. Well if my car was broken and yours working would your car be overpowered or would mine just be broken? Pistoleer has to be fixed before you can truly compare them.
If we do what you suggest and make all professions have the same damage output. What then? Are they balanced? No. Carbieneers would still have more status effect and Pistoleers have more defense. So wouldn't we have to change those? Yep. End result would be all the professions being the same. Only difference would be the graphic in their hand. Might as well dump all of them and just make an elite profession called Elite Ranged Fighter. Then do the same thing with the melee professions.
My sentence I meant to say was: If we couldnt kill a rancor before it got to us we would be dead. Pistoleers are better close range fighters then us and can deal with Rancors up close while Riflemen will have a hard time.
Sleksheea wrote:
Nice to see a pistoleer who does not know his own specials even... Pistol Melee defence 1 and 2 both have a knockdown effect. (though I grant you that melee defence 2 does not land the knockdown as often as 1 does - borked?) No, only pistol melee defence 1 has the knock down effect.. The other one is broken, like almost every pistolleer special. Oh, and so you know, I was replying to knockdown + Dizzy. Pistoleers don't have a DIZZY. Knockdown is nothing but humorus to watch without a dizzy added to it. And for pistoleers, it's a melee range move, not ranged.
OK lets see here.... Oh rifleman do not have a knockdown at all! otoh we have a dizzy, maybe you should work with a rifleman and then we can match a Carbineer for an attack such as that! btw: the carbineer knockdown also works for melee range -smuggler otoh has a ranged knock down - which Oh My God! works with a pistol!
Dodge does work, in fact it is one of the skills most stacked in the game. If you are a pvp'r you pick up fencer dodge and pistoleer dodge until you hit the 125 cap as that makes you virtually unhitable... master rifle has been document many times as requiring 10 or more shots to get one to land, how often have you ever missed a rifleman when you shoot back at him... OMG, your full of it. Documented where? LOL I posted a screenshot not to long ago of a battle between me and a rifleman... 1 in 7 shots hit him, 4 of 5 of his shots hit me. Ask any pistoleer how they fare vs a rifleman, LMAO
hmm, wierd your not a fotm temploiter then?
many professions stack with Pistoleer to give pistoleers specials, speed, accuracy and better defense... compare that to a rifleman, we gain no specials other then marksmen specials, we gain no speed, we can gain better defenses but as we start at a lower level our max defences are/will be lower.Aren't Everybody's defences lower at a lower level?? You say you gain no specials... at least the specials you have WORK. and your speed, accuracy, etc. is nearly at it's cap with JUST rifleman. Pistoleers HAVE to get the BH pistol tree just to equal a rifleman's mods for these things. THen guess what... no skillpoints!
actually you will have 66Points left if you get your max speed and get eyeshot. We do not cap without SEAs we just come closer then many professions if we have master marksmen and master rifle. What you don't have master marksmen already... don't **edit** about it then!
As has been said many times in this thread it is not rifleman that are to powerful, it is that the advent of uber armor and buffs have cause rifleman to lose their negative - high ham costs and to gain a positive a armor piercing stun weapon And again as I've stated many times already... because of this and OTHER THINGS MENTIONED, riflemen are OVERPOWERED. Guess what? Nerf armor and buffs, andNOTHING will change! The other professions will take the exact same hit as riflemen.
Actually it will change, if buffs = max 100% of your base stat (so 200% over all) and 60% armor (which is assumed to be what they are aiming at) and with pistoleer duel wield (which is most definitely been promised) you have nothing to fear your accuracy may drop with both but as you are capped should be no problem but you damage output should increase... Also the vulnerablities of armor will be changing so that each armor is worth using andbe vulnerable to at least one damage type thateach ranged profession has. Also mind healing is coming back so Oh my god.. you can cure your mind if you get head shot after all everyone and their doc can use stim b's these days. The big pvp changeI would like to see is the devs give stim b's a 15 med use rating, then not everyone instantly stims to full health
Sounds like fun, when do we start?
Sleksheea wrote:
XaverriJade7 wrote:
EDIT: I replied to each and every of your points as it seems has become standard here. It wasn't all nice things either, but it was accurate. However, I have decided that this constant back-and-forth garbage is useless. I'm sick of these pointless arguements. Post deleted. Instead, please just take this with you:
The only reason Rifleman seems overpowered, is due to buffs/armor being overpowered(I said this already several posts up). It seems no one wants to recognize this. If you have a problem with a particular class, the Devs can change that. Coming here and venting(Devs do not read this forum, trust me. They will never see what you have written, so this is just a waste of time) is not the thing to do. Try to be more constructive than destructive. Nerfing everyone will destroy the game. Fixing the professions that need to be fixed, even if it is 95% of them, is the only way to make things better.
Thank you
LOL, guess you have nothing left to say. Show me where I said I wanted to nerf any class at all? I didn't. All I'm doing is proving riflemen are overpowered as the current system runs. You can't deny it. If it wasn't true, 80% of the combat classes on every server wouldn't be riflemen.
Message Edited by XaverriJade7 on 08-02-2004 05:33 PM
Elthar wrote:i beg to differ. Rifleman is overpowerd. hmm look at their guns, very strong right, fine, im cool with that. Master rifleman has 0 delay and their speed is as fast as a master pistoleer, thats my problem. You cant tell me otherwise. Riflemen are not supposed to be the fastest shooters, and it seems they are qeual with pistols. Here is the thing, pistols do a quarter of the damage and carbines half. It seems like they become far to fast, and just as fast as the guns which should be faster than them because THEY do less damage.
As has been stated, we are heavy damage dealers, we are supposed to hit hard. No one is denying that, what we are denying is how much damage we do, I have never seen 1000+ in PvP done to someone. Also pistols and carbines are not supposed to hit hard. That is why Pistols are supposed to have high defenses (as stated before they can use more Ranged and melee then what they have). Carbines are supposed to inflict status attacks. Both pistols and Carbine can KD, riflemen cant do that unless the person they are fighting doesnt know what he is doing. Force position changes dont KD, only those you do cause the KD with Dizzy. Our nitch in the game is we are long ranged heavy hitters. Waste has stated many times, if we were all the same we would be nothing more then people with different weapons but doing the same thing.
Elthar wrote:
i beg to differ. Rifleman is overpowerd. hmm look at their guns, very strong right, fine, im cool with that. Master rifleman has 0 delay and their speed is as fast as a master pistoleer, thats my problem. You cant tell me otherwise. Riflemen are not supposed to be the fastest shooters, and it seems they are qeual with pistols. Here is the thing, pistols do a quarter of the damage and carbines half. It seems like they become far to fast, and just as fast as the guns which should be faster than them becausethey do less damage.
We need to get a token response post to this, a FAQ for nerf threads since this has to be one of the most overdone responses in these types of threads no matter how many time we refute it in the very same thread.
Point 1: Our top speed with strafeshot2 (best attack) using a token T 21 is actually around a 2.5 second delay. Sotaudi has done the math on this in this very thread I believe. With marksman mastered and millions in skill enhancers (or many times more millions and no mastery of marksman) then yes we can hit the speed cap however without dabbling we cannot.
Point 2: Why are we not supposed to be the fastest shooters? Whywould a rifle be any slower then a carbine, especially considering that a carbine is nothing but a short rifle? What possible technical reason within the game context would there be? Simple answer, we are supposed to be able to shoot fast. Our speed stat hasn't changed since the games launch afterall. The devs didn't decide to slow us down at all nor did they decide to speed us up, they left us right where we were.
Additional to point 2: We do indeed have some of the highest damaging attacks (commando might and should be higher then us) however this is balanced out in a way that has been removed from the game. We are frontloaders, meaning wedon't have damage over time. Without buffs (which balances out a hell of a lot as far as combat is concerned, this has been mentioned a lot previously) a rifleman is given 10-12 strafeshot 2's (humans can get the 12, other races less) before we haven't enough mind to fire anymore specials. This is our mind bar remember so we cannot heal it in an instant to fire more specials. In fact this prevents us from healing at all, or makes us trade out a heal for a special attack. You have longevity in battle we don't. That is the balance for our high beginning DPS, on top of other weaknesses relative to other strengths which have been gone into at great length previously.
LiakyK wrote:
I can prove Carbineers can beat us. They can just KD/Dizzy us an wail away.
My sentence I meant to say was: If we couldnt kill a rancor before it got to us we would be dead. Pistoleers are better close range fighters then us and can deal with Rancors up close while Riflemen will have a hard time.
Why do you say this? A pistoleer's melee defence is +45, while a rifleman's melee defence is +40. There really isn't much difference there. And with rifleman doing WAY more damage it would seem the rifleman would certinaly have the upper hand over a pistoleer when facing a rancor.
I TOLD them they should have made our spherical space station out of the same magnetically shielded walls as the garbage compactor! -Sleksheea
Sleksheea wrote:
(Yes, and your somehow forgot to mention that the rifleman hits with much greater damage per shot, and that the rifleman has MUCH more ranged defence than the pistoleer nullifying that close accuracy comparison between the two you gave.. oh how did you forget to factor in the ranged defence mods?? Your accuracy statements are completely wrong.
Pistoleer ranged defence = +7. Rifleman ranged defence = +72. This gives riflemen a 36% greater chance to hit the pistoleer than vice-versa.
Actually his accuracy statements are completely correct. If I were to shoot a stormtrooper at point blank and a pistoleer would we would hit about as often. Same at 60 meters. Ranged defense only comes into play during PvP (something that far fewer people then you'd like to admit do) wherein many other pro and con factors are put into play. Essentially, if you want to balance PvP solely on accuracy and DPS good luck finding a system that works.
Also our high damage output is our pro. It is our role. Want to know what counters this and is our weakness? I bet you can't since it has been completely nullified by later implementations into the game. Give up? It's HAM costs, you know the floating number after you do a special. However now that number is 0 instead of 200 thanks to brandy, canape, dancers and musicians. Throw buffs out the window or scale them down a lot and we kill ourselves faster then you can. If your out PvPing with out these buffs you deserve to die anyway! Nobody goes with out buffs. You have ZERO HAM consumption from the activation of any of your specials. This arguement doesnt hold water.
Actually yes it does if you were to nerf buffs which is pretty much what I was implying with that entire paragraph. I thought I had laid it on fairly thick but next time I"ll just come right out and say it with big bold letters.
(LOL when is the last time you saw a commando firing the one and only AP3 weapon they have... the rocket Launcher? When have you ever even SEEN a rocket launcher? Oh, and at a fireing rate of somethin like 12 seconds delay, I would have to say that techinacally yes, they have an AP3 weapon, but realistically, no, they don't.) Don't be lame.
So what you are saying is that a commandoes weapon is broken in a sense, or at least the sense that it is far too weak for the benefits it affords. Hmm I fail to see how this is a rifleman issue nor how it is pertinent to our discussion. They have an AP3 weapon so we are not alone, and if they feel it needs to be beefed up (which it does) that is their issue. LMAO... I was replying to the rifleman dude who broght this up, I didn't bring it up. Read back further...
I did, however you seem to have forgotten what sparked this comment and skimmed over my remark which pretty much confronted that spark. "They have an AP3 weapon so we are not alone" the fact that it is a fairly useless AP3 weapon is a commando issue but the fact is that they have an AP3 weapon.
(LOL... like anything you said here is relevant. 90% composite resiststhe same amount for kinetic and blast...90%. Your stun Jawa on the other hand is only inhibited by 40% MAX composite. Your switching the issues here... try to stick to the point. Your same damage type weapons as the pistoleer's are much more powerfull initially and over time. That's the point. Weather it's stun, heat, whatever, riflemen can shoot as fast, do more damage, and have more accuracy than pistoleers. Not to mention targeting the mind pool.These things are what makes riflemen overpowered!)
So what you are saying is that armor is severely overpowered in most departmentsand has caused only a few damage types, which few professions have access to, overpowering. So why exactly are we changing the damage type and not the overpowered armor? From what I hear, armor is being nerfed, DEV's never intended it to hit 90%. BUT that won't change a thing,,, damage output percnetages will still be the same after the armor nerf as they are now, excapt maybe HAM regeneration wont out-regenerate pistoleer damage...
I go over how this will effect rifleman severely, especially relative to other ranged professions,at the very end of this post which you seemed to take completely out of context. Or you decided to section off my post and respond to it piece by piece instead of the overall statement and message I was laying out.
Also your statement that our damage types are more powerful initially and over time is in fact incorrect. We have high HAM costs that, when actually take effect and not negated by overpowered buffs and foods, prevent us from fighting after our first 10 shots are fired. We are the equivalent to artillery in a sense. We do high damage up front (as you noted) however we only get a few shots off before the enemy rushes our line and slaughters us.
Find a rifleman that just lost his buffs. Ask him to fire 3 strafeshot 2's both with and without his composite armor so the encumberance factor is shown. You'll notice a large dent in his blue bar even though noone is attacking him.It will rather quickly enter the "red zone" or the area where itis unsafe to be involved in combat since any random HAM special will kill you, and just a few shots after this area it enters the "deadzone" where a normal shot to the mind bar will kill you.Our con will be painfully obvious and you'll see how vulnerable we are in a true fight where buffs are uninvolved and wearing armor becomes a tactical choice instead of an invisible one. Your not proving anything here. Every class has HAM costs associated with specials. I havea TKA that I can't spam unarmedhit3 unbuffed for the same reason. If your buffed and on food, everyone can spam with ZERO HAM costs. Even you.
And this negates every con that the "special" (look up what special means, then common) attacks come with. How does that make any sense to you, let alone how can you defend its existence in the game and promote leaving that while nerfing professions to better accomodate them? Cause, effect. Whynotfix the cause as opposed to forcing a different effect?
Also, every class has HAM costs, yes but how many others have their HAM costs directed almost solely in the mind which, as people continually point out, is unhealable. Meaning that we have a limited amount of shots to fire off where most other professions can heal away their costs and keep on firing. If you only were able to fire 10 specials in a fight regardless of how long the fight lasts would you consider that humbling? Would that weaken you to the point of balanced relative to other professions that can fire 10,000 specials?
(Hmm... again Pistoleer = +7 ranged defence and Rifleman = +72 ranged defence. I think your seriously confused here. Don't go and try to talk about pistoleer's state defences, as were comparing riflemen and pistoleers, not TKA to pistoleers. Neither can do state effects other than bleed (pistoleer can't anyway, not sure about riflemen)... and again aa +50% to any state defence only means it takes 2x as many hits usually to stick a state on that profession. No big deal whatsoever. I'de take the ranged defence bonus anyday.
Then get a profession that will give you high ranged defense if you'd prefer that over state and melee defense. Some people would rather be great at surviving blow after blow from carbineers and meleemen. Use a special against a rifleman and it will stick. We will be pretty screwed when that happens. Try any melee attack against a rifleman. You'll hit us many times more often then you would any other profession. We have high ranged defense (a tad too high) but that is it. Well there is more then 1 defense type to consider and pistoleer takes the cake in all those other departments compared to us. Dude, you didn't read any of the above posts did you. Ask any pistoleer if he would trade all his state defenses for the same ranged defence as a rifleman... they would do it in an instant. States don't stick if you can't hit the target (riflemen)
Then all of those pistoleers either don't want to admit the role the devs have more or less given them or are jaded by being broken for so long and are reaching out for anything that is shown to work (rifleman just about anything) Plus, as Waste has shown, several times now I believe, accuracy of most all professions at master negate most defensive bonuses we have in range bringing us down to the same as pistoleers.
(LMAO... AGAIN... PISTOLEER = +7 ranged defence // Riflemen = +72 ranged defence! Sorry, pistoleer has no defence advantage what so ever vs. a rifleman!!! It's quite the opposite!
Yes, however what advantage do you have over a carbineer especially compared to a rifleman who is also attacking a carbineer. What defense advantage do you have against melee in comparison to a rifleman? Why that's right you have many times the defensive capabilities relative to a rifleman. LMAO,your making up nonesense. Pistoleer melee defence = +45. Riflemen melee defence = 40. How do you figuer that is "many times the defensive capabilities"?. Because we have a to hit modifier. This has been saidan untold number of times on the boards and a few times in this very thread. Remember how rifleman, and eventually commando, were given a 2.5x modifier for damage whenmelee hit them? That was traded out because it made no sense and was replaced with a"to hit" modifier. Essentially meaning I"ll get hit more times out of 10 holding my rifle then you would holding your pistol.I'm sorry but this proves Waste's point and the fact that you want to ignore everything but ranged defense simply speaks volumes about yourself as opposed to anything in regards to this argument. I haven't ignored ANYTHING... your just to lazy to read the previous posts. Your reiterating garbage that has already been covered.
You ignored that we have a to hit modifier for melee and keep blocking out the fact that we have no state defenses while you do. Basically we have a good deal of ranged defense (which should be lowered a bit) and 0 status defenses, and -# melee defense.
P.S. I guess I agree with you that "Profession are not suppose to all have the same damage output. It's the Rifleman advantage. You aren't suppose to be able to compete with it." That's why riflemen are overpowered... almost nobody can compete with it!
Actually many can. If a tera kasi artist where to get within range and use a status attack such as KD and/or Dizzy I am dead. Anybody who gets KD'd and Dizzy is pretty much dead. Even moreso for us and others with no defense against states since we'll have it stick a lot faster when we get hit with it.Do you know why? Because I have no defense against either of those and knocking me down effectively removes all of my DPS. Actually all melee professions have a great chance of killing me since they all have a high to hit bonus against me. Carbineers and bounty hunters can leave quite a dent in us thanks to our defensive weaknesses. Essentially most people can defeat a rifleman...when the fight starts off the way the game is meant to be played and without any other overpowering elements entering the fray that weights every encounter in the riflemans favor. LMAO, dude, yes, riflemen have died at the hands of others... but not as often as others die at the hands of riflemen. Why don't you be a rifleman and pistoleer? Best of both worlds, uber damage, accuracy, speed and mind hits from rifles.... and state defences from pistol... LMAO as if you'd spend 92 points for thoes state defences... They really don't help at all... I've never NOT been KD/Dizzied by a TKA
Well for 1 I'm the mayor of a town and need to have skill points put into politician so I can have things change and work different at the drop of a hat, and secondly because you can't use the 2 ranged professions at the same time. I can't shoot strafe2 and stopping shot simoultaneously and there are other professions that offer better defensive advantages such as tera kasi or fencer (which works excellent for pistols thanks to stacking up dodge)
Sleksheea wrote:
LiakyK wrote:
I can prove Carbineers can beat us. They can just KD/Dizzy us an wail away.
My sentence I meant to say was: If we couldnt kill a rancor before it got to us we would be dead. Pistoleers are better close range fighters then us and can deal with Rancors up close while Riflemen will have a hard time.
Why do you say this? A pistoleer's melee defence is +45, while a rifleman's melee defence is +40. There really isn't much difference there. And with rifleman doing WAY more damage it would seem the rifleman would certinaly have the upper hand over a pistoleer when facing a rancor.
No, a rifleman's melee defense is - some #. We have a to hit modifier that completely negates the number that is actually visible. It apparently is better at working out our melee disadvantage then just lowering melee defense.
You may remember how this was broken not too long ago to actually give us an advantage against melee so we would be hit however much % less instead of more. That bugbrought a lot of nerf calls.