Rifleman Archive

Now I left this thread alone over the weekend just to see what kind of stuff is come up with.

One thing that every combat profession has a problem with is that BH are the best at combat. Period. We don't only outdo riflemen in mind damage, but we're faster with a pistol than pistoleers could ever be. We have a carbine move that creates wounds instead of damage. We have a heavy weapon which hits in ranges comparable to commandos.

The devs didn't give BH rifle certs or a rifle column because then we would be too powerful. Rifles are supposed to do alot of damage each shot, but have a slower firing rate.

I did some comparison studying with a rifleman friend of mine over the weekend. I wanted to see solid numbers, not just what is seen in the heat of a PvP fight, and not just what is said.

In PvE, riflemen have a MUCH higher DPS than bounty hunters when hitting the mind. Matter of fact, it is double what we can do. Why? Well, generally from what I saw, eyeshot hits for a max of 500 damage under perfect conditions. Headshot 3, on the other hand, hit for between 1800 and 2500 damage consistantly. The ratio is that I would get off 2 shots for every one shot my buddy would get off.

In PvP, it's another story, though. The damage modifiers for PvP lower the rifleman's DPS so much that the speed of a pistol makes eyeshot put out double the DPS as headshot 3.

This revelation, to me, makes it a fair tradeoff. Riflemen will always out damage bounty hunters when it comes to mind in PvE while bounty hunters will always outdamage riflemen.

Now, while I originally saw the problem, I don't see a problem at all now. None.

Bounty hunters hunt down people and kill them. That's what we do. Perhaps saying we're the best combat class is a bit over broad. Perhaps we're the best PvP class, but we are not the all around best combat class.

A bounty hunter will not be as desirable in a group as, say, a rifleman, if the goal of the group is to run missions, hunt big animal game, or clear a dungeon. On the other hand, if the goal of the group is to attack an oposing faction's city, and engage in large scale PvP, the bounty hunter is very desirable in a group.

Seems like a fair tradeoff. You're better at PvE. We're better at PvP. Seems like more than an even trade, considering PvE is where experience and money comes from while PvP yields nothing more than faction points, and at a slower rate than running faction missions.

So, considering these facts, what exactly is the problem?

Now we're talkin.

I don't have the time today, but I will go out and run a few tests on a specific mob and post what I find, giving all the data that makes a difference.

What mob will we be testing this on?

Denzien, Bria server


Artisan 3/0/0/4          Scout 4/0/4/2


Brawler 4/0/0/0         Smuggler 1/0/1/0


Marksman 4/4/0/4      Rifleman 4/1/3/3

Social, me and my buddy did this on the giant dust mites in the cave in southwest Talus, but all that really matter is that both are hitting the same mobs, and that the mob doesn't have any resistance to either weapon. Well, as far as the mob goes 8)

I am sooo glad at least ONE rifleman is willing to actually go out and get data. Serious kudos to you Social 8)

Now you can use whatever half witted argument you want to say this data is not valid or true, but that will not change the stone cold fact that it IS valid and true.

Anyone can go in game and recreate this study with the same findings. It IS the way the game is.

Saying this is not true would be as ignorant as saying 1+1=3, escpecially since you're too lazy to recreate the study yourself.

You: "That's not true! That's not data! I haven't looked for myself, or may even TRIED to check it out, but I KNOW"

Me: "And I bet you know the world is flat ,too, and probably the same way"

Go in game and get it yourselves if you don't believe it. The numbers, and the facts, are there for any person to see easily. If you're too lazy to see your yourself, then you have no right to argue it.

And by the way, you CAN lie, and say you saw something different in game, but the devs can just as easily recreate this, and your lies would mean nothing.

This. Is. Fact.

You outperform us defensively and offensively in PvE. We outperform you offensively in PvP. For the love of God, stop and think about it! We're BOUNTY HUNTERS for crying out loud!

And I should add that the issue, if you don't like this, is that bounty hunters hunt people, and are a PvP class, designed to be superior in PvP.

If you don't like the fact that there is a profession in the game that is made soley for PvP, then you need to address THAT. Fact is, since that is the design, even if you got eyeshot nerfed we would be given another way to own you in PvP just as much.

Accept the derned FACTS, and address them in a constructive, intelligent, mature manner, otherwise you are simply whining! It's like not liking a forest and choosing to complain about one tree in it instead of the forest itself!

If you don't like that there is a class in the game that is made soley to be superior in PvP, then address THAT, and address what other benefit is possible and acceptable to you for bounty hunters spending three times the skill points as other combat professions.

Seriously, get a derned grip, and address the forest, not the trees! Get to the derned heart of it, or we will ALWAYS have this problem. It'll be a different ability, maybe even a different weapon, but if you do not discuss the CORE of it, there will ALWAYS be SOMETHING.

Then, if the devs don't completely change the design of bounty hunters for you, you have your answer, and you just have to deal with it or become one yourself. Seriously, if PvP is THAT important to you, then you should become the profession MADE for PvP. Otherwise, stop whining and play the game.

I'm not a malicious person. Well, at least I try not to be, but seriously, this crap has gone on long enough. Either accept the REAL issue, and come up with a solution, or stop being part of the problem. Anything else is futile and immature.

I got the numbers I used from my own combat window. Neither of us had buffs of any kind.

This isn't that big of a surprise to me, either. With only the marksman tree rifle skills I can do that kind of damage without even using higher certs.

Now, what we were fighting could make a difference in the actual numbers, but you'd see the same thing if a BH and rifleman did this study against anything, with the numbers appropriately lowered or raised according to the mobs' level or armor. The study would come out different if the mob had protection afgainst the rifleman's weapon, but not the BH.

We fought the giant decay mites for the PvE data in the south western corner of Talus. I suppose that could impact the findings. The mites had no armor against either of our weapons. In PvP neither of us used armor. Neither of us used any kind of spice or buff or anything that may affect the findings. Neither of us had a powerup on our weapons.

This is data from a straight up contest of damage with no external modifiers. Granted, if you used spice, fought something with the appropriate armor, sliced your weapon, put powerups on it, etc, you would have different results.

The fact is, when he pulled, the mobs didn't even see him. They just died. When I pulled, I got beat up. So yeah, in PvE the HAM costs make a difference, but the rifleman took less damage from the mob, so again, it's balanced.

---

Meyree wrote:

Now you can use whatever half witted argument you want to say this data is not valid or true, but that will not change the stone cold fact that it IS valid and true.

Anyone can go in game and recreate this study with the same findings. It IS the way the game is.

Saying this is not true would be as ignorant as saying 1+1=3, escpecially since you're too lazy to recreate the study yourself.

You: "That's not true! That's not data! I haven't looked for myself, or may even TRIED to check it out, but I KNOW"

Me: "And I bet you know the world is flat ,too, and probably the same way"

Go in game and get it yourselves if you don't believe it. The numbers, and the facts, are there for any person to see easily. If you're too lazy to see your yourself, then you have no right to argue it.

And by the way, you CAN lie, and say you saw something different in game, but the devs can just as easily recreate this, and your lies would mean nothing.

This. Is. Fact.

You outperform us defensively and offensively in PvE. We outperform you offensively in PvP. For the love of God, stop and think about it! We're BOUNTY HUNTERS for crying out loud!

---

I wasn't going to reply to this thread..or did I already? I forget, but Meyree, you should have stopped while you were ahead I think.

First of all, what study did you post? What AP weapon was your friend using? What damage type? What creature/NPCs? I didn't see you list any of that. That would give ME a much better idea of what you're trying to say but since you didn't post any of that..oh well. I never hit 1800 consistently unless it has absolutely NO AR. That's using a laser rifle with 567 max dmg. But what was your friend using? What was he shooting? I may have missed it if you actually specified what. Did you test it on any other creature/npc? Or was this just one test on one thing?

And we outperform you defensively? Uhm...in what universe? I may be playing a different game. Or maybe Sunrunner is in a quadrant that just has completely different laws, but when it comes to defensive skills, well..I've never seen mine work. With a 2.5x dmg modifier, I don't even want to actively test it. I do know however that with all the times I've been attacked by a melee, I've taken MASSIVE damage. This is from things I can kill with one shot, or step on. If say 3 of them attack me, I take down one, and the other 2 run at me, do you have any idea how much damage we take?

As for Bounty hunter won't be as desirable in groups as a rifleman? Uhm..where the heck did you get that info? A rifleman's damage in group is good only when conditions are perfect/near perfect. At optimal ranges, or against targets that are barely moving, but a BH, they don't have that problem. Just like any other pistol user. Now why exactly would a group favor a Rifleman over a BH again?

As for the LLC having the best ranges compared to commando weapons...that's true. But LLCs still kill at 60m. I dueled a novice BH friend of mine. I'm not sure what skill box you need in Novice BH to use an LLC, but I know she had no more than 1 skill box, and she killed me at 60m. I aimed for her mind. I shot her 5 times, and missed once. She shot at me 5 times, and mixed twice. At 60m! My accuracy at 60m, is +34ish when prone (I was prone), and her accuracy she said was -30 or so. She shot me for 600 dmg on avg, straight to the health pool, and other pools, while I shot her for 300ish dmg to her mind. With a 567 dmg weapon. In her favor however, she had on a helmet, but even if she hadn't , I don't think the AP on my weapon would have worked (not sure there). Regardless, she killed me in about 10 seconds. I had gotten her mind to 1/3rd. With 2/1/2/2 in rifle, I figured I'd win easily at my best accuracy, but I was wrong.

I then dueled her with ..heh, and this is funny, dueled her when she was using a scatter pistol I made. I've never died so quick. Again at optimal range for me, and at great negatives for her. She got off more shots than I could count. I don't have a log, actually I need to check my file...but I basically helped her kill me. Using mind shot makes it easier for her to dispatch me.

But that's another story.

Meyree, at the beginning I actually liked your posts, they were constructive, imo, but you fall into the same trap many others do. Not totally your fault, but rifleman have their own problems, and don't pretend you understand just because you do some little test with a rifleman friend. I have BH friend, and Commando friend, and a Pistoleer friend, and a Combat Medic friend, but I don't assume I know what the problem is regarding them, just by seeing them fight. I can get a glimpse of my own profession problems, but not theirs.

Last but not least...

"Bounty hunters hunt down people and kill them. That's what we do. Perhaps saying we're the best combat class is a bit over broad. Perhaps we're the best PvP class, but we are not the all around best combat class."

Those are your words. In game, they are very true, somewhat. But bounty hunters aren't supposed to be the best hunter/killers. Bount hunters are supposed to be like detectives, cops...using brains over brawn. I can't say I've read all the books on the expanded universe , but if Jango or Boba were to go head to head against some combat class, I doubt it would be a fight that's definately in their favor. They use tactics. They use a variety of equipment. Their armor is a treasure trove of gadgets used in disabling (not necessarily klling) their targets. To use eyeshot needs no skill. That's why it's used so much. Why use another tactic when using Eyeshot totally disables.They dont' go head to head unless it'sin their favor.In the current state of the game, whatbattle isn't your favor? A BH could berunning backwards whilejuggling with one hand and still be super accurate with their other hand in shooting. I admit, alot of this isn't just BH players' faults..it's poor design. The bounty hunters in SW:G don't appear to be anything like the bounty hunters in the SW universe.

As for riflemen, you'd think most rifleman just go for mind. I can't speak for every rifleman but I don't. I do when I think it's warranted, but in PVE, its usually not. Whyattack a creatures/npcs mind, when it has 11000, when everyone else is shooting the health and action?If we went just for mind, that only prolongs the battles.Not only do I use flurry/strafe,/onceal(broken PoS), but I also use 4 different rifles as my target requires. I don't do this because it's fun, or to feel "immersion" , but because it's a necessity ..in order to be competitive. You however, don't have to do that. Using Eyeshot, at least from my experience is as competitive as alot of BHS want to get. You kill the mind, you kill the body. Rifleman, however, have to devise other alternatives. Targetting others' mind, also inflicts dmg upon ours. Theseother tacticsdon't always work, otherwise there wouldn't be this debate, but we use them nonetheless.

True, bounty hunter should be very good at player vs player, but as good as a sniper? Please. When going up against a master sniper, the only time you realize he's there is that split second between when the bullet enters your head and you die. The devs don't want anyone one-shoting anyone else, so we're forced to do it in multiple shots. However, we do have very high damage in pve. But what this means is that we take a larger damage hit in pvp, without a special cost reduction. So the 75% reduction hurts our class the most (true commandos do have higher costs now with certain weapons, but they're 1-shotting people so it doesn't matter as much). Eyeshot give bounty hunter's a better mind dps than a sniper, making bounty hunters better "snipers" than riflemen. Looking at the wide variety of weapon choices it is clear that bounty hunters are the jack of all trades, playing to any enemy's weakness. A bounty hunter should never out snipe a sniper, have better health dps than a pistoleer or better action dps than a carbineer. The advantage of your profession comes in that you can choose which of these pools you wish to attack and then are able to attack that pool specifically.

The call for an eyeshot nerf that is comming from us is because it is the most realistic chance for balance we have. If they lower our special cost, we can spam high damage shots in pve for a longer time making our profession overpowering in pve. If they change our special costs to action, we can spam mind damaging shots in pvp, that hit harder than anyone else's, until the end of time. The devs'll have a problem with this as well, since mind isn't suppose to be the determining factor. So that leaves us with making eye shot weaker.

Or, instead of nerfing everything to oblivion, you could just take BH's out of the Galactic Civil War, meaing, no PvP for bounty hunters except for player bounties. Then NONE of this would be an issue because no one would have anything else to whine about. This would end the pistoleers taking bounty hunter pistol skills to be uber in PvP, and PvP would be a whole lot more balanced.

Of course uber pistoleer/bounty hunter hybrids don't want this to happen.

Remove us from the CGW and give us bounties on players for PvP fun. Everyone is happy and its win/win (well everyone except those who want an unfair advantage in PvP now)