Rifleman Archive
Thread: Eyeshot Post by a BH
U) Again, how can rifleman DPS be greater in PvE but less in PvP? The reduction is 75% for everyone, not just riflemen.
M) Thgis proves you haven't even looked at the BH skill tree, yet you claim to know so much about it.
Whereas a pistoleer gets +6 speed to pistol, tops, at one time, bounty hunters get up to +15.
Go in game and actually get the data. You continue to whine, and honestly, you sound like children.
If you want to be the best PvP class, be a bounty hunter. What is so difficult for you to grasp here? Bounty hunter = player killer. Period.
I guess we should pay 3 times the cost for our profession as yours so you can own us, right?
Your lack of argument is highlighted by the fact that you cannot provide counter facts, but rather tear my statements apart when I show you why you're wrong.
Grow the heck up.
I'm the ONLY BH who was willing to come in here to come up with a mutual solution, and the ONLY person who has actually gotten both PvE and PvP numbers from in the game, yet you continue to tear up my statements simply because they mean you won't get what you want.
Too **edit** bad. Cry me a frickin' river.
I'm done in this thread. I can see the people I am dealing with here are not interested in balancing the game, they are only interested in why they should be the most "uber", and anyone who beats them needs to be nerfed.
Let me say this:
Whaaaaaaaa
LOL. No counter facts. Yes please don't even post again Meyree. You realized you have no argument so you are getting desperate. Now we are all just "whiners". Funny thing is that even without eyeshot BHs have their LLC. I think you are the one that needs some serious growing up Meyree. Pretty obvious by your last outburst. Problem is you don't know how to compromise. You don't even know what it means. What you did in this thread was not compromise because you want your profession to stay exactly the same as it is.
"
Let me say this:
Whaaaaaaaa"
Thanks for summing up your character for us.
I have tested the game more thoroughly than you, I assure you. I figured out how accuracy works in this game; what did you figure out?
I know BHs get more speed per box than pistoleers. What in the world does that have to do with the question:
"Again, how can rifleman DPS be greater in PvE but less in PvP? The reduction is 75% for everyone, not just riflemen."
Where exactly does the question a) refer to pistoleers b) have anything to do with speed mods? If your DPS is 100 in PvE it's 25 in PvP, neglecting armor/resists. There's nothing more to it. The reduction affects everyone equally. Riflemen don't lose more damage than everyone else. PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW RIFLEMEN ARE BETTER AT PVE THAN BHS BUT WORSE IN PVP. The reduction doesn't provide this explanation.
"If you want to be the best PvP class, be a bounty hunter. What is so difficult for you to grasp here? Bounty hunter = player killer. Period."
Um, no, Bounty hunter = person who collects bounties. There are no player bounties. How can you say BHs are supposed to be the best PvP class?
"I'm the ONLY BH who was willing to come in here to come up with a mutual solution, and the ONLY person who has actually gotten both PvE and PvP numbers from in the game, yet you continue to tear up my statements simply because they mean you won't get what you want."
Sorry, no. Go to the pistoleer forums if you want to see real data and real formulas on how the game works. We have a pretty good idea on game mechanics. You said you didn't even know what rifle (let alone the stats) that your 'test' used. How do you call that getting 'PvE and PvP numbers'?
Also, just because you came to the forums doesn't mean you're right. Remarkably condescending - you deigned to come down from the BH boards and graciously offer us a chance to come up with a mutual solution. Whoop-de-doo.
"I'm done in this thread. I can see the people I am dealing with here are not interested in balancing the game, they are only interested in why they should be the most "uber", and anyone who beats them needs to be nerfed."
Um, the person claiming that their class (BH) should be the end-all in PvP is accusing us of only being interested in why we should be uber? You've already made up your mind that BHs should be the best.
U) You realized you have no argument so you are getting desperate.
M) Actually, I am the ONLY one who posted a solid argument with numbers from both PvE AND PvP.
We pay THREE TIMES for our profession what you pay for your's.
You are better at us BY FAR in dealing damage in PvE.
We get NO defensive mods except at master, which is only +7 whereas you get a WHOLE COLUMN of them!
AND you want to be better than us in PvP?
1) You have provided no arguments including PvE damage from in game because you know it will prove you wrong.
2) You are trying to argue FACT about the game. Solid, hard, cold numbers cannot be argued. They are FACT.
3) You expect to be better than us at PvE AND PvP.
4) In light of these facts, you CONTINUE to whine.
You have proven yourselves to be selfish, inconsiderate, irrational, illogical, arrogant, stubborn, undiplomatic, and all so that you can continue to whine to get what YOU want without even considering the FACTS presented to you for so much as a split second.
And you say "Whaaa" sums up my charcater?
It turns out that my profession is basically the player killer profession, and let me say that I will THOROUGHLY enjoy handing you whining arrogant snivelling babies your arses in game.
I can respect someone who presents facts, or counters numbers with numbers. I can care about people who have a problem, even if it means it may not be good for my interests, and I proved that.
When I came back with data straight from the game that shows that there is no problem, you proved that you don;t give a **edit** about game data, balance, or anything. You want to be better at PvP than people who give up things you aren't willing to give up.
You will NEVER be respected with that attitude.
Come back with contrary data that is not numbers you just pulled out of your butt. Show me how a BH using eyeshot is better than a rifleman in PvE. IF you can do that, and you can't, then maybe eyeshot should be changed.
The fact is you cannot do that, and instead of thanking me for at least coming to you initially when it seemed like there was a problem, and trying to work with you, or doing the work of gathering the data to help BOTH classes, whichever it favored, you belittle me, whine, moan, and complain.
Grow up. You're acting like frickin children!
Guess you aren't so done with this thread?
We have presented numbers. But you haven't Meyree. And yes answer Noules's question. How does a Rifleman do more damage than a BH in PvE than PvE? Defenses? LOL. 2.5 times the melee damage when all creatures melee. Yes I see the advantage. And I also see that our +blocking skills don't even work. Glad you did your research. We have had to deal with many disadvantages from day one, such as using mind for specials. Then when we suggest that you use mind for one of your pistol specials you freak out and say that it would ruin the profession. Nice compromising. And you tell us to grow up?
And don't give us any BS about our attitude.
"
It turns out that my profession is basically the player killer profession, and let me say that I will THOROUGHLY enjoy handing you whining arrogant snivelling babies your arses in game."
Again a great quote! You show your true colors! Thank you!
"
When I came back with data straight from the game that shows that there is no problem, you proved that you don;t give a **edit** about game data, balance, or anything. You want to be better at PvP than people who give up things you aren't willing to give up."
We give more up than anyone else. We are the ones with all of the penalties.I don't WANT action to be taken when I use a headshot. I am not selfish as you are Meyree. BH eyeshot needs to take mind for the GOOD OF THE GAME. And as for your data that shows there is "no problem", it only proved that you have no grasp of the facts. How does doing 75% less dmg in PvP all of a sudden increase the BH DPS over a Rifleman's?
"Come back with contrary data that is not numbers you just pulled out of your butt. Show me how a BH using eyeshot is better than a rifleman in PvE."
Why don't you show us some of YOUR data? We have already presented ours. You didn't even show us a frikin log. Just told us what your "friend did". Talk about pulling numbers from your ass...Try again when YOU have a real argument.
You still have not addressed any of my arguments.
Meyree,
Your conclusions are flawed. My brother plays a BH and I play a rifleman and I will tell you straight up he will out damage me every time in PVE and in PVP without downtime. In PVE it is due to two factors:
1. He can use specials continuously and heal the ham pools that he depletes. I cannot. He gets a sustained DPS far higher than I could ever hope to match and this would even be the case at master rifleman. The key here is he can do large damage without depleting an unhealable pool using any special that he feels like using while I do not have a way to sustain my dps.
2. He is capping out his pistol speed without being a master BH and I am not a master rifleman yet so I cannot match his pure DPS due to lack of speed until master.
The second PVE issue can be remedied once I hit master level, however the sustainability of DPS will never remedied. This is due to the fact that a BH's specials only drain from healable pools while having the ability to damage unhealable pools in a targeted fashion.
My conclusions based off my experiences having played with a bounty hunter since release is that a bounty hunter is better at PVE due to the sustainability of their DPS. No downtime = faster killing = better in PVE. More speed early in the profession = faster killing = better in PVE when XPing is necessary.
In PVP the imbalance is the result of 1 factor only:
1. BH's may target and damage any HAM pool while using healable HAM pools to do it. A master rifleman is a terror in PVP, but they will always lose to a eye shot spamming bh due to the fact that to kill the BH a rifleman HAS to use an unhealable HAM pool to use his specials whereas a BH is able to use healable HAM pools to damage unhealable pools.
My conclusions based off my experience is that a bh will win even is the element of surprise is with the Master Rifleman due to the Eye Shot Special using a healable HAM pools to do damage to an unhealable HAM pool.
Solutions that I would present to correct this imbalance:
1. Make Eye Shot use the mind pool while dealing mind damage. (solves all problems while not changing the bounty hunters effectiveness in 1 v 1 combat)
2. Make Eye Shot hit a random ham pool while still causing blindness. (solves all problems while allowing BHs to still take advantage of the blind status effect.)
I will not offer mind heals as a solution as it would only worsen the problem due to balance ramifications across the entire game.
Simple fact is that you are a bounty hunter and you do not wish to be lessened in effectiveness. The proposed changes would have a minor impact on your effectiveness in PVE or PVP unless you are participating in group PVP.
As an aside I also do not wish to see Bounty Hunters reduced in effectiveness as that would impact my PVE and PVP play since I play with a BH quite often. However, one cannot state that because a bounty hunter requires so many skill points that they are a collage of the three elite combat professions and should thereby be better at PVP than any one of the other combat professions. I submit that a Bounty Hunter is not a compilation but a unique combat class that is on par with all other classes and should not by default be better at combat than the other combat professions but should have more options at their disposal to compete than a one line elite combat class should have.
Having more options should not equate to more power, just more flexibility.
In the end we all have 250 skill points to spend and we should all be subjected to the same combat rules as everyone else.
Targeted Health attacks require Health HAM usage.
Targeted Action attacks require Action HAM usage.
Targeted Mind attacks require Mind HAM usage.
Random Attacks require HAM based off the profession: Pistoleer health, carbine action and rifleman mind.
Once a profession breaks away from this combat model an imbalance is created and should be fixed. Bounty Hunters have broken away from this due to their Eye Shot special and should be corrected.
Jac Amber
Master Weaponsmith
Scarlet Horizon PA
Corbantis Server
Well, where I was going with it anyway, was that if bounty hunters are relying on one specific attack to take out their "uber" bounties, what else are they doing? Do they use their guile to set off numerous traps to slow their targets, make them more vulnerable to attack and add dots before gunning them down?
If BHs had traps that affected huminoid creatures you might have a point.
Kylian Redeyez
Wow you guys, great responses, I am very impressed.
Sethe, Noules000 andBaronJedi, you all posted very calm, direct and appropriate responses to Meyree's lack of profundity. I feel bad about my slight tirade now, lol....
I don't think the real reasons and solutions for this debate could have been posted any better than the combination of your posts.
I've said my peace, I can't make any more sense than that I have already done.
Good luck 
Mercuri wrote:
Well, where I was going with it anyway, was that if bounty hunters are relying on one specific attack to take out their "uber" bounties, what else are they doing? Do they use their guile to set off numerous traps to slow their targets, make them more vulnerable to attack and add dots before gunning them down?
If BHs had traps that affected huminoid creatures you might have a point.
Kylian Redeyez
Oh, they don't? 
(Never used them myself)
Well, why shouldn't they? I think they should have at least some modicrum of effectiveness against humanoid creatures....
Man, did this thread go downhill fast! Thanks, SocialConformer for trying to keep some sanity here.
I have followed this thread since the first post and was actually impressed at Meyree's ability to keep his composure and discuss the facts sanely in the first two pages. I'm not sure what happened, but he did snap and unfortunately has just reinforced what a lot of riflemen suspect about most BHs. His tirades (yes, there are tirades from riflmen in here too) have completely destroyed the credibility of his earlier discussions. And he as left me, at least, feeling that BHs are indeed babies with power,crying when faced with the possibility of somebody taking away one of theirnumerous pacifiers.
Meyree, I'm sorry man. If you had just held on to sanity I'd still be listening. And yes, you will own our arses and thats the reason this whole thread exists in the first place. I'm not sure why you did a complete turnaround and decided that there wasnt a problem.I cant speak for anyone but me obviously, but I don't want to be uber. I just want to compete on a level playing field. The field is level and if you think it is, then just stay away, because 99% of the people in this forum will whine and cry and argue with you. Me included.
I have one question, Meyree: When was the last time you killed someone without using eyeshot (or LLC)?
In the course of ANY PvE encounter with a high-level MOB I use AT LEAST 3 rifles,change positions at least twice, and use 3-6 different shots. All you have to do is click one button over and over.Ooohhh... that takes skill! You so bad!
I expect this thread to get torched by the devs pretty soon. Too bad... it started with such potential.
