Rifleman Archive

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LiakyK wrote:
I like how people complain about our ranged DB then say we should be snipers. It sounds like an oxymoron. Basically what your askin is for all 5 of those to be changed so we become a useless profession?

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Uhg.. why do such stupid people continue to live?? Targetting the mind pool is overpowered?? THE MIND POOL IS UNDERPOWERED. How many times does this need to explained?

Seriously.. if you think rifleman needs to be nerfed please change your PA setting to "Special Needs" so we can tell you apart from the regular idiots. I can't believe this many people would totally ignore the real problems and go for the quick "OMGNURF!!111112" fix.

/sigh @ humanity

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DavidGX wrote:
Uhg.. why do such stupid people continue to live?? Targetting the mind pool is overpowered?? THE MIND POOL IS UNDERPOWERED. How many times does this need to explained?

Seriously.. if you think rifleman needs to be nerfed please change your PA setting to "Special Needs" so we can tell you apart from the regular idiots. I can't believe this many people would totally ignore the real problems and go for the quick "OMGNURF!!111112" fix.

/sigh @ humanity

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Nice flaming there buddy. That all you can do here?

Think about it... if the mind pool is underpowered, and yet, that's the pool targeted by riflemen with such success, that causes riflemen to have a huge advantage, THUS riflemen are OVERPOWERED! DUAHHHHHHHHHH! Riflemen will stay 'OVERPOWERED' until either THEY or the MIND POOL get fixed/nerfed. In eaither case, no matter how you look at it, riflemen have the huge advantage... and with any big advantage given to any given class, that makes that class overpowered regardless of the reason for that advantage. You catching on there yet? Or am I not speaking in a high enough plane of comprehension for you to make sense of me oh mighty one?

Fact: Riflemen are overpowered.Everybody knows this, and everybody in their dog is a rifleman because of it. Don't try to rationalize this by saying the mind pool is broken, because even if rifleman couldn't hit the mind, their SPEED, ACCURACY, DAMAGEare still higher than both carbineer and pistoleer. That would be like saying combat medics aren't overpowered because your resistance to poisons is broken thus they don't deserve a nerf LOL.

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Sleksheea wrote:

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DavidGX wrote:
Uhg.. why do such stupid people continue to live?? Targetting the mind pool is overpowered?? THE MIND POOL IS UNDERPOWERED. How many times does this need to explained?

Seriously.. if you think rifleman needs to be nerfed please change your PA setting to "Special Needs" so we can tell you apart from the regular idiots. I can't believe this many people would totally ignore the real problems and go for the quick "OMGNURF!!111112" fix.

/sigh @ humanity

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Nice flaming there buddy. That all you can do here?

Think about it... if the mind pool is underpowered, and yet, that's the pool targeted by riflemen with such success, that causes riflemen to have a huge advantage, THUS riflemen are OVERPOWERED! DUAHHHHHHHHHH!

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I hate to say it but the "DUAHHHHHHHHHH" was the smartest thing you said in that post.

Riflemans advantage doesn't come from the rifleman profession itself, it comes from the HAM system, the pool it targets. The devs made it so mind can't be healed in beta because docs were able to keep themselves alive forever with stims. With the coming "sub-pool" HAM design this will be fixed. There's no need for such stupid "fixes" and "being prone/kneeling" or "capping speed" or any stupid ideas like that. You're trying to break one thing (rifleman) because something else (ham system) is broken. No good.

One-Star this post if you agree.

Message Edited by DavidGX on 08-02-2004 11:15 AM

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mojen wrote:

why do commandos have heavy weapons with no ap but riflemen get a t-21 with a heavy ap, because they are overpowered

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Maybe because COMMANDOS are BROKEN? Ask commandos this yourself.. commandos are borked. And last I heard the lightning cannon that commandos wield is AP3. You don't break one prof because another is broken. We need FIXES in this game, not breaking it further.

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mojen wrote:

why do commandos have heavy weapons with no ap but riflemen get a t-21 with a heavy ap, because they are overpowered

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Commandos do have AP3 weapons. It's called the Rocket Launcher. However asking them to find one is a quest in itself. The Commandos don't hardly use any weapon other Flame Throwers because the rest are basically useless. That is something that needs to be fixed in their profession.

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Xtroncore wrote:

Sorry but it's a bad idea.

As for Rifleman accuracy. The difference in accuracy between a Rifleman and Pistoleer is less than 10% of the total. One thing people often overlook is that specials have built in accuracy bonuses. Rifleman specials cap out at +15. Pistoleers are at +50. Once you factor that bonus in you'll notice that the accuracies are pretty close.

For those that say Rifles fire slower. It's a myth. Can you explain why a rifle fires slower? A rifle uses the same technology as a pistol and a carbine. They would all have about the same mechanical limitation. Hence they would all have about the same speed limitiation and they do. It's one shot per second.

Finally. Why is it that 90%+ of the 'nerf Rifleman' calls are from PvP? Something the majority doesn't even do? You don't break a profession to suit a minority when it will have an adverse effect on the majority. Nor can you compare a working profession and say it's overpowered when the profession you are comparing it to is broken.

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Sleksheea wrote:

You totally ignored the whole point of my post. You can't accept it can you. But I'm glad to see thatYOU AGREE WITH ME in the fact that riflemen are overpowered.

No they aren't. The problem is mostly with buffs.

(You said "Riflemans advantage doesn't come from the rifleman profession itself, it comes from the HAM system, the pool it targets") So wait a minute!! Riflemen DO have an advantage!

All professions are suppose to have an advantage. The Riflemans is damage. The carbineers is status effects. And the Pistoleers is suppose to be defense.

OMG does that mean OVERPOWERED!?! Hell ya.

No. The simple reason isn't even the HAM system. It's buffs. Buffs operate on two different systems. Health and Action get buffed X amount. It's an addition and the average is about 2300 I'd say. Mind buffs on the other hand operate on a percent system. They double the Mind pool and substats. Which often leaves the Mind about 500-1000 points lower. Anyone with common sense is going to attack the weaker pool. Especially once you factor in the lowered PvP damage.

However that doesn't mean that Rifleman are overpowered. What it means is that there is a problem with buffs. They shouldn't be operating on two different systems. If you lowered Doc buffs to be like Mind buffs then that pool would be about even. Which makes those pools more attractive to target. Or if you increase Mind buffs to the same level as Doc buffs you get the same effect.

Then the only issue is adding Mind stims so that the Mind can be healed like the others or remove stims from Health and Action and you have your equality.

The issue isn't Rifleman. It's a poorly implemented system that made the Mind the weakest and most attractive target in PvP. You can fix that with other doing anything to Rifleman as has been shown above.

Like I said in my last post... the one you obviously didn't read, regardless of the source of the advantage, riflemen have one, thus they are overpowered.

Having an advantage is not overpowered. You are suppose to attack an opponents weakness, not their strengths. If you try to attack their strength then don't expect to win. All professions are suppose to have weaknesses and strengths. Rifleman have low defenses with the expception to ranged defense. They are vulnerable to status attacks.

Oh, and please show me where I said I'm trying to break riflemen? LOL, making stuff up now are ya? Also glad to see you agree with me on all the other stuff I said in my last post, as you didn't say anything about that either.

Rifleman is a mostly working profession. Most of the others are not. You can't compare the two. If you try to make Rifleman on par with a broken profession the only way to do so is to break it. That is if you don't fix the broken professions.

For your information, the star rating system here is not supposed to be used to 'hurt' the poster like your doing. If you disagree with a post it doesn't mean it's a 1 star post. The stars are supposed to represent the level of decency they are written with, the effort of a logical attempt to post one's opinions and the lack of flaming within. If I disagree with your opinion but your post is clean and tidey, I give you at least 4 stars and then make a post about why I disagree with your opinion. You obviously can't handle a mature system like that.

I will however agree with you here. And you will be getting multiple stars just for making that point.

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Waste93 wrote:

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mojen wrote:

why do commandos have heavy weapons with no ap but riflemen get a t-21 with a heavy ap, because they are overpowered

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Commandos do have AP3 weapons. It's called the Rocket Launcher. However asking them to find one is a quest in itself. The Commandos don't hardly use any weapon other Flame Throwers because the rest are basically useless. That is something that needs to be fixed in their profession.

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Xtroncore wrote:

Uh no, I haven't left out the 75% PvP reduction, try not wearing any armor for a change, notice how you get hit for 1500+ A LOT by riflemen, now factor in 30% resists using a general model for the new armor maxes, how much of that gets through the armor? Oh look, it's over 1000 damage (and no, I didn't factor in the AR1 of the armor or AP3 of the T21, but it'd only go to show the T21 doing even more damage since AP levels don't kick in against targets with 0% resists).

And whoop dee do, a krayted T21, 11 identical krayt tissues is easier to come by then the DE10 pistol and barrel that we pistoleers NEED to PvP (ontop of the tissue it needs too).

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Xtron,

See you are still around and still have little idea of that which you speak. A 1500+ hit? Lets actually run the numbers.

Best Rifleman special is a 5X damage multiplier. So if you are taking a 1500 hit that means you were hit for 6000 (PvP reduction). That means that at least, the max damage on that rifle would have to be1200. Twice what you said you see (600). But wait you say, I didn't factor in the AP. You're right. That's because players are vulnerable to all damage types and hence there is no AP damage bonus.

Now that is with the best special doing the most damage. Now lets look at HeadShot3. That is a 3X damage multiplier. Which using your 1500+ example means that the base damage on that rifle had to be 2000. Or over three times higher as the 600 you stated is normal.

If you are getting hit for 1500+ points in PvP it's an Exceptional or Legendary rifle and is not representative. If you want to claim it is then I'll be happy to show you a Legendary Powerhammer with AP2 Blast and max damage of 5600.

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As for the original idea I'd say no. If you want to make Rifleman be immobile to use their specials why not others? How about EyeShot from BH? What about the AoE KD attack of the Carbineer? About the KD of any profession for that matter? (Because he is trying to compensate for the damage and speed advantage riflemen already have not to mention the ability to hit the mind pool).

Sorry but it's a bad idea. (No idea is really bad, just not as good as others)

As for Rifleman accuracy. The difference in accuracy between a Rifleman and Pistoleer is less than 10% of the total. One thing people often overlook is that specials have built in accuracy bonuses. Rifleman specials cap out at +15. Pistoleers are at +50. Once you factor that bonus in you'll notice that the accuracies are pretty close. (LOL, riflemen still have better accuracy than pistoleers though. Better accuracy, higher damage, same speed (1 shot per second) and mind pool damage pretty much dominates any pistoleer... and don't even say "Well you have state defences".. LMAO... like you use state attacks in the first place.... not to mention your 60 points of ranged defence vs pistoleer's 15 points... no contest in a duel between the two).

For those that say Rifles fire slower. It's a myth. Can you explain why a rifle fires slower? A rifle uses the same technology as a pistol and a carbine. They would all have about the same mechanical limitation. Hence they would all have about the same speed limitiation and they do. It's one shot per second. (LOL, your trying to infuse real life physics into SWG?!In that case all flame throwers should be 1 shotkills that never miss.Oh, wait, you just want the highest damage, AND best accuracyall at the same speedas the lower damaging lower accuracy pistoleer and carbineers... makes sence, everyone want's to be uber).

Finally. Why is it that 90%+ of the 'nerf Rifleman' calls are from PvP? Something the majority doesn't even do? You don't break a profession to suit a minority when it will have an adverse effect on the majority. Nor can you compare a working profession and say it's overpowered when the profession you are comparing it to is broken. (First off, glad to see you acknowledge pistoleer is broken LOL. Multi-shot anyone? Oh wait, our only master pistoleer special has to stay broken cause were soo uber as it already is LOL.) Anyway, your totally wrong in saying the overpowered riflemen don't affect PvE. Talk about cheezy riflemen showing up and kill stealing your loot because you can't compete with their damage really sux. Happens to me all the time, and I have what's considered an uber damaging pistol...) Yes, the overpowered riflemen affect everyone.

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Sleksheea wrote:

(Because he is trying to compensate for the damage and speed advantage riflemen already have not to mention the ability to hit the mind pool).

Effect would be to make Rifleman a one to two shot profession.

(No idea is really bad, just not as good as others)

Actually there are such things as bad ideas.

(LOL, riflemen still have better accuracy than pistoleers though. Better accuracy, higher damage, same speed (1 shot per second) and mind pool damage pretty much dominates any pistoleer... and don't even say "Well you have state defences".. LMAO... like you use state attacks in the first place.... not to mention your 60 points of ranged defence vs pistoleer's 15 points... no contest in a duel between the two).

Accuracy difference between Rifleman and Pistoleer is +15. That is not counting the weapons accuracy mod which would depend on the range.

PvP isn't suppose to be a 50/50 endevour. Some professions will have advantages over others. However all profession will have some that they have an advantage over. It's a circular balance, not a linear one.

(LOL, your trying to infuse real life physics into SWG?!In that case all flame throwers should be 1 shotkills that never miss.Oh, wait, you just want the highest damage, AND best accuracyall at the same speedas the lower damaging lower accuracy pistoleer and carbineers... makes sence, everyone want's to be uber).

Actually no. Read the RPG books. They do have information on the weapons including the T21. The slowest rate on the T21 is one shot per second. The weapon delay represent aim time. Not a mechanical limitation. Last time I checked this is a RPG. Which means that there are some real life physics infused.

As for your flame thrower example. They do miss. As for one shot kills. You could say that about just about any weapon couldn't you?

(First off, glad to see you acknowledge pistoleer is broken LOL. Multi-shot anyone? Oh wait, our only master pistoleer special has to stay broken cause were soo uber as it already is LOL.)

I've never stated otherwise. You can check my few posts in the Pistoleer forum where I've said exactly that also.

Anyway, your totally wrong in saying the overpowered riflemen don't affect PvE. Talk about cheezy riflemen showing up and kill stealing your loot because you can't compete with their damage really sux. Happens to me all the time, and I have what's considered an uber damaging pistol...) Yes, the overpowered riflemen affect everyone.

There are reports that there are issues with loot privelages. Namely that it doesn't take into account the whole group so it is possible for a group to be outdamage by an idividual. However kill stealing is a violation of the EULA if I remember correctly and you should report those that do it. But that doesn't mean some is overpowered.

However look at the 'nerf Rifleman' example given in this thread and others. They deal almost exclusivley with PvP. That was my point.

We know that PvP is a minority. While PvE is the majority. To many of the nerfs in this game have been the result of PvP whining and it's had an adverse effect on PvE. Because what effects one also effects the other and not in the same ways.

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Waste93 wrote:

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Xtroncore wrote:

Uh no, I haven't left out the 75% PvP reduction, try not wearing any armor for a change, notice how you get hit for 1500+ A LOT by riflemen, now factor in 30% resists using a general model for the new armor maxes, how much of that gets through the armor? Oh look, it's over 1000 damage (and no, I didn't factor in the AR1 of the armor or AP3 of the T21, but it'd only go to show the T21 doing even more damage since AP levels don't kick in against targets with 0% resists).

And whoop dee do, a krayted T21, 11 identical krayt tissues is easier to come by then the DE10 pistol and barrel that we pistoleers NEED to PvP (ontop of the tissue it needs too).

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Xtron,

See you are still around and still have little idea of that which you speak. A 1500+ hit? Lets actually run the numbers.

Best Rifleman special is a 5X damage multiplier. So if you are taking a 1500 hit that means you were hit for 6000 (PvP reduction). That means that at least, the max damage on that rifle would have to be1200. Twice what you said you see (600). But wait you say, I didn't factor in the AP. You're right. That's because players are vulnerable to all damage types and hence there is no AP damage bonus.

Now that is with the best special doing the most damage. Now lets look at HeadShot3. That is a 3X damage multiplier. Which using your 1500+ example means that the base damage on that rifle had to be 2000. Or over three times higher as the 600 you stated is normal.

If you are getting hit for 1500+ points in PvP it's an Exceptional or Legendary rifle and is not representative. If you want to claim it is then I'll be happy to show you a Legendary Powerhammer with AP2 Blast and max damage of 5600.

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I never once said anything about the 600max T21doing the1500 damage, you can leave that to the other rifles that have FAR higher max damages like the Laser (I have a 1200 max Player crafted one sitting in my house, I've had it since December) and Disruptors. I said 1000 damage is reasonable for a T21, and 600 is only a number I threw out there, middle of the pack in max damage for T21's as far as I'm concerned, I've seen many player crafted ones over 750 max after a perfect slice and PU (not double sliced). It's entirely possible to be hit for 1500 damage by a riflemen in PvP with strafe2, it's happened to me a lot before I started using stun armor (so yes, that was even with a jawa).