Rifleman Archive
Thread: -=Rifleman semi-bi-weekly state of the profession address=- June 20 2005
We barely have room in any dungeon as it is,due to the lack of range in them, I am standing 18 meters from said target most of the time to have a buffer to move back if it attacks, this little nerf would render me useless in a dungeon almost all the time. So this 20 meter thing has to go bye bye now, that is a useless idea.
As far as the arms go they should apply to pistols and... not hundred percent sure even carbines as they are a hybrid weapon of pistols and rifles to start with, maybe with a reduction to distance... anyways, as it pertains to rifles, it should be ineffective and actually remove acc since it requires steady aiming, plus, a certain delicate touch to pop anything at range. If you are a clod with a rifle trust me you would be hard pressed to hit the broad side of a barn door with a rifle at 20 meters, therefore, finesse should be considered where riflemen are concerned, or...
If, we really must do this 20 meter thing. Then add several close range abilities to use with the rifle not unlike what pikeman have. This way it doubles up as a close range fighting tool. One, only RIFLEMAN can use. So if someone else happens to be using a rifle they do not get the specials, nor do they work on any other form of weapon.
So lets say as an example, someone brings a sword to bear on you, it is not unheard of in real life to use the rifle as a sword for countering an attack, then swing it like a pike to knock their heads off, plus, stab them with that pointy thing that attaches to the end of said rifle. It would take a little work, granted, to make it work, but it can feasible work without rendering the rifleman group dead in combat.
This would make crafting knives by artisans a more viable seller than for the ten second grind they are used for now.
Now that, would be a bit more useful than a simple nerf due to whiners.
THINK, THE, THINGS, THROUGH... watch a movie, ask your local experts, "military", what a rifle can do point blank, then add to game.
Simply nerfing anything in this game to appease the whiners is going to bring us full circle, to the point in two years we will have another CU going.
This nerfing crap is what caused the first CU to begin with.
That above didn't cause a nerf just reworked the system to make more sense.
But the close range attacks a rifleman would be using, better be worth while or the profession goes dead as a stone.
If anyone thinks a rifle butt upside the head doesn't hurt, feel free to come to my house for a demonstration.
That combo should keep us alive for grouping as thee damage dealers at long range, plus when it gets personal we can still hold our own and defend ourselves.
I am sure it can be applied to this game easily enough, since pikeman exist already, and smugglers are hybrids of melee an pistols.
why not simply do that?
While im at it, conceal needs to be worked on, so that as hunters we can shoot the prey without having to get into a fistfight to get dinner. This one shot and they are on top of me before I can twitch doesn't get it.
Message Edited by Wolveryne40 on 06-24-2005 03:28 AM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Twice now I have been typing long responses to this thread and both times it has timed out before it would post! And copy/paste from MS Word or Notepad doesn't work either!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
maybe hes insulting because you are asking for a system which, as he highlights in B but you skirt around and never address, you lock riflemen out of the high end content?
If I said to you you couldnt use any good pistols in the geo, or the DWB or the avatar, you would soon be crying.
Yet that is EXACTLY what you are saying to riflemen.
Last I saw rifleman paid the same subscriptions as you, so why should you access content, using the best of your abilities, that a rifleman is denied?
As for C), thats all well and good on paper, but in practice, whatever you do, the rifleman who uses his specials will end up with the aggro.
You of course there dont address the situation of a rifleman soloing at all, how do you recommend he goes about that?
Or is solo play something else you see as not a right of someone who plays rifleman (And who isnt necessarily FOTM RM/BH/pistols or smuggler , and doesnt have access to roots)
Remember a rifleman has no roots, no means of keeping the mob from closing within this minimum effective range you propose. EVERY other ranged proff does.Another failing of this proposal.
I couldn't use my good pistol on the sith invasion mission because the riflemen (who don't have roots) were rooting the enemies outside of my range and nuking them before I could get a hit in. I can't use a good pistol on a krayt hunt because #1 if i get that close i'm toast and #2 the riflemen (who don't have roots) are rooting the critters outside of my range and forcing me to run into additional agro in order to get into range. I can't use my good pistols on an xp hunt because the rifleman (who don't have roots) are rooting the enemy outside of my range and nuking them so that when I get into range they're dead already.I can't use my good pistols in pvp either because I'm not afforded the opportunity to get that close. The current situation is that there is no reason to ever use a pistol for any reason. I have no reason to use my pistols other than personal preference. I'm just as effective with a rifle in all ranges as I am with a pistol in the close ranges.
I'd rather not steal your range from your proffession. I think you should have the nuking ability at the long ranges.That makes sense to me. It's been suggested that riflemen take accuracy penalties at closer ranges and most folks would agree that it's fair. I don't see the difference, if we're talking about reducing your effectiveness at close range between killing your accuracy and reducing your damage capabilities. It's the same thing.You seem to be concerned that if you have to change weapons and actually do less damage and actually notice a difference outside of your optimal range that it's somehow unfair. Well I have range limits on my weapon, I'm suggesting the same changes to the pistols and carbines as I am for rifles. You don't want to have any limitations. You choose a long range weapon, then you gate yourself from being effective in up close combat. If the content you want to enjoy is close range, then perhaps you should reconsider your proffessional decisions.
the main complaint here is that you won't be able to be effective in close combat. Well that's pretty accurate since you are a long ranged weapons specialist. I don't get the problem. If I wanted to be able to nuke from a distance I would go rifles. If you want to be effective up close, go melee. Accept your role in combat or change your role in combat.
TheSillyOne wrote:
maybe hes insulting because you are asking for a system which, as he highlights in B but you skirt around and never address, you lock riflemen out of the high end content?
If I said to you you couldnt use any good pistols in the geo, or the DWB or the avatar, you would soon be crying.
Yet that is EXACTLY what you are saying to riflemen.
Last I saw rifleman paid the same subscriptions as you, so why should you access content, using the best of your abilities, that a rifleman is denied?
As for C), thats all well and good on paper, but in practice, whatever you do, the rifleman who uses his specials will end up with the aggro.
You of course there dont address the situation of a rifleman soloing at all, how do you recommend he goes about that?
Or is solo play something else you see as not a right of someone who plays rifleman (And who isnt necessarily FOTM RM/BH/pistols or smuggler , and doesnt have access to roots)
Remember a rifleman has no roots, no means of keeping the mob from closing within this minimum effective range you propose. EVERY other ranged proff does.Another failing of this proposal.
I couldn't use my good pistol on the sith invasion mission because the riflemen (who don't have roots) were rooting the enemies outside of my range and nuking them before I could get a hit in. I can't use a good pistol on a krayt hunt because #1 if i get that close i'm toast and #2 the riflemen (who don't have roots) are rooting the critters outside of my range and forcing me to run into additional agro in order to get into range. I can't use my good pistols on an xp hunt because the rifleman (who don't have roots) are rooting the enemy outside of my range and nuking them so that when I get into range they're dead already. I can't use my good pistols in pvp either because I'm not afforded the opportunity to get that close. The current situation is that there is no reason to ever use a pistol for any reason. I have no reason to use my pistols other than personal preference. I'm just as effective with a rifle in all ranges as I am with a pistol in the close ranges.
I'd rather not steal your range from your proffession. I think you should have the nuking ability at the long ranges. That makes sense to me. It's been suggested that riflemen take accuracy penalties at closer ranges and most folks would agree that it's fair. I don't see the difference, if we're talking about reducing your effectiveness at close range between killing your accuracy and reducing your damage capabilities. It's the same thing. You seem to be concerned that if you have to change weapons and actually do less damage and actually notice a difference outside of your optimal range that it's somehow unfair. Well I have range limits on my weapon, I'm suggesting the same changes to the pistols and carbines as I am for rifles. You don't want to have any limitations. You choose a long range weapon, then you gate yourself from being effective in up close combat. If the content you want to enjoy is close range, then perhaps you should reconsider your proffessional decisions.
the main complaint here is that you won't be able to be effective in close combat. Well that's pretty accurate since you are a long ranged weapons specialist. I don't get the problem. If I wanted to be able to nuke from a distance I would go rifles. If you want to be effective up close, go melee. Accept your role in combat or change your role in combat.
If you are trying to be sarcastic wit the (dont have roots) thing. Ill explain it slowly
RIFLEMEN do noy have roots.None. In fact, if you think they do this conversation is over because you have absolutely no clue.What you arein fact highlighting is the problem, pistoleer specials combined with a rifle.(and if it was an ALR, chances are it wasnt a rifleman at all, but I dont want to confuse you so forget that)
Rifleman/smuggler, rifleman/BH/pistols, they have roots, heres a clue. Not all rifleman are that template.
As for effective close combat, no, you are not reading the issue.
The issue is simple. In current game mechanics, PvE is entirely at close range. A rifleman ranger, a rifleman/Ch, a rifleman/melee or a rifleman/crafter DO NOT have any way of holding a target at range, that is fact whatever way you wish to lie about it.
Now under your proposal a pistoleer can go in the geo, or the dwb , or the avatar or anywhere and be in there 'effective range', use there best weapons, use all available specials, so can a carbineer, smuggler or BH.
The ONLY ranged proff that cannot use there full skills in the high end content of this game under yourproposal is rifleman.Your bias against rifleman shows in this post I quote, your agenda clear inthis proposal.
As for riflemans role, It is , stated by the devs, 'Nuker' . If a rifleman only has 20m distance (time for 1, maybe 2shots)to perform his nuking, and no means of keeping the target within that range, youi have just stopped rifleman from being a nuker, or in reality play any part in a group or solo combat.
Here is how I see things as a community veteran:
Short term we are screwed. We will most likely get this min range nerf and be the laughing stock of SWG..... Hell CH's will have more goods then us and all creatures are generic caca.
Long term there is always one solution and it has nothing to do with nerfs. When weapons were designed much thought was not put into "What makes a weapon class unique," instead they did the silly thing and made all weapons the same with diffrent stats.
My long term weapon proposal:
-No weapons other then Carbines, Pikes,and Heavys deal elemental damage. Carbines/Pikes (Unexperimented) deal 50% elemental & 50% Energy or Kenetic. Heavys deal 100% elemental damage (This means elemental damage needs to be fixed).
-Pistols/One-handed get a natural 100-200 dmg (Depends on experimentation) DOT with each weapon. Pistols/One-handed can dual weild but each weapon deals 2/3'rds of their direct damage. The DOT's are weapon specific, so if a Pistoleer dual weilds a Geonsian and a FWG5, the FWG5 and Genosian DOT stack.
-Rifles/Swords Deal 25% more direct damage then pistols/one-handed, 15% more then carbines/pikes, and equal to 5% more then heavys.
Who has heard about a weapon that can't be fired at point blank? Ridiculous.
Characters run proportionally faster than in RL. Tell this to the devs:
Draw a circle with radius 32m and another inside with radius 15m(half distances to compensate for relative speed in game).
Place person A at center and person B at tangent of bigger circle. Tell A that he may only walk at brisk pace will B may run. A must manouver himself as to always keep person B in the 17m stripe. Add to the fact that lag makes it so person B may appear to be at 15-16m from center when he in reality is 13-14 from it...
I think we all knows what happens. Min range for snipershot? OK. Accuracy penalty at close range? OK.
Not being able to use any attack whatsoever within a stipulated distance? Not OK.
My 2.
Basicly what is happening is that 1 out of 10 rifleman has chosen a Combination that allows use off some pretty cool profession abilities form OTHER profession with his rifle. THUS everyone is calling for a NERF of the rifleman profession.
THIS IS COMPLETLY UNFAIR FOR THE REST OF US THAT DONT PLAY THAT COMBINATION!!!!! (Sorry but im getting pretty angry about thus)
If our weapons are so "uber" give them a blow back effect...i.e. whenever a target is hit, it gets blown 20 meters from us. In that way, we are able to keep opponents at range....
Of course, if you get two riflemen playing "chase the TKM", the TK will be awfully P.O.'d about being blown all over the map...
/sarcasm off
I was having a round table discussion with some other combat professionals over rounds of beer between philosophical debates, and a pistoleer brought up a very interesting point...
In the process of the discussion, as I ranted over the proposed nerf's to the rifleman profession he asked the following:
"Why don't you just use a good pistol at shorter ranges? Your rifle specials work with them, right?"
As a Master Rifle, Master BH, Pistol 0/0/0/3, my pistol DPS with a Hi-cap Scatter is approximately 50 lower than with the T-21, with a 20 point lower SAC. I did some experimentation and found that, indeed, my success against MOB's isn't much different with the pistol over the rifle. The reduction in SAC seems to compensate for the reduced accuracy and DPS, and by using the Pistol Speed injectors I find that using rifle and BH specials with the pistol isn't that bad.
Having just picked up the Master BH certed Proton Carbine, I plan on experimenting with that as well.
After that discussion, I asked why he doesn't use his Master Pistol, Master Smuggler specials with a rifle when range is neccessary. His response was quick in that there is no Master Certed Rifle outside of, he believed, Rifleman and Commando, and Commando suffers greatly because their specials are in their weaponry, not their skill boxes. He is stuck with a CL 54 certed rifle that, while giving him range, greatly suffers in the DPS department.
Something bothers me about this entire discussion, though I can't seem to wrap my mind around it right now....
so much for a faster more tacical game. lol
If there is to be a minimum range for rifles.. than pitch for all having them.It is not fair to the melee's if not. They cannot even really use a rifle to any degree OR a pistol. Leave the pistols at 10m minimum range.
And then we will have to also have their defences lessened, their speed upped and their specials given to others.
As it stands, the most defence, the most speed, least amount of SAC and greatest amount of specials are compensation to a pistoleer for less range. if they even it out with minimums, then they have to start spreading the defences around, give out more spd, lower SAC, and give rifles a root and a armor break.
As a rifle you can cloak with 20m to spare.. use a times snipershot, a bad snare, a less damaging but better accurate main shot, and a 2 sec delay. With that ya get a greater range with the least defence in the bracket.
As a pistoleer ya get an intimi, and armor break, a root, a dmg shot that is about the same as rifle, just less accurate..an aoe, a stun shot, and a 5 sec delay,.. With the best def in the bracket and the lowest sac
GraySeven wrote:
Something bothers me about this entire discussion, though I can't seem to wrap my mind around it right now....
Know what that problem is? There should be no range ristrictions
GraySeven wrote:
In the process of the discussion, as I ranted over the proposed nerf's to the rifleman profession he asked the following:
"Why don't you just use a good pistol at shorter ranges? Your rifle specials work with them, right?"
As a Master Rifle, Master BH, Pistol 0/0/0/3, my pistol DPS with a Hi-cap Scatter is approximately 50 lower than with the T-21, with a 20 point lower SAC. I did some experimentation and found that, indeed, my success against MOB's isn't much different with the pistol over the rifle. The reduction in SAC seems to compensate for the reduced accuracy and DPS, and by using the Pistol Speed injectors I find that using rifle and BH specials with the pistol isn't that bad.
Having just picked up the Master BH certed Proton Carbine, I plan on experimenting with that as well.
After that discussion, I asked why he doesn't use his Master Pistol, Master Smuggler specials with a rifle when range is neccessary. His response was quick in that there is no Master Certed Rifle outside of, he believed, Rifleman and Commando, and Commando suffers greatly because their specials are in their weaponry, not their skill boxes. He is stuck with a CL 54 certed rifle that, while giving him range, greatly suffers in the DPS department.
People focus too much on DPS. It doesn't actually matter much, and for rifles looking at DPS is completely useless. DPS is just that: Raw damage per second based on a calculation of the weapon speed (with skill modifiers) and the damage capabilities of the weapon. It doesn't take into account such things as SAC cost and accuracy. For rifles, no matter if you have the rifle skills or not, I don't think it's a good idea to look at DPS at all, since a high DPS would mean a high speed. A high speed would mean loads of action used in a short amount of time.
Anyway... There is one good reason as to why riflemen shouldn't have to usepistols at short range, and that's for PvE purposes. If any form of range limitation would be introduced, then yes, riflemen can switch to pistols at short range. But the end result would mean that it'd be next to impossible to get rifle XP, since pretty much all combat in SWG tends to take place in melee distance.