Rifleman Archive

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The_Great_Destroyer wrote:
I think that other professions need to do what we call "cowboying the f*ck up". If anything, Rifleman needs a damage increase because an offense of 5 isn't really any different from an offense of 2 or 3.

As for nerfs, no. Tradeoffs, maybe. If they want to implement a min range, then I'd ask for a few things.

1. Nobody can fire at our range.

2. Every shot from a MR does an armor break attack (you think a T-21 can't punch through whatever they're wearing?).

3. Damage increase such that we can kill anything in the time span it takes to run from 65m to min range (35m or whatever it is). Everyone else is expected to kill in their range without kiting. We should too. (Note that with the current set up, we would kill in one or two hits).

That is what in my mind constitutes a lack of defense, a lack of the ability to kill things close, and the ability to hold them at any range. That would be a fair tradeoff, and I can guarantee you that you'll never see it.

Message Edited by The_Great_Destroyer on 06-22-2005 12:01 PM

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*waves to the wookiee*

you are correct sir, on every point, in my opinion, humble as it may (or may not) be

Message Edited by TheSillyOne on 06-24-2005 02:47 AM

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TheSillyOne wrote:

just a suggestion, feel free to throw it out. It was a proposed solution by the pistoleer correspondant in a different thread and I'm just throwing some other stuff in here.

Why not alow the lower damage lower cl rifles into the closer ranges thus emulating the accuracy penalties at close range and keep the high powered weaponry to the long range situations. Do the same for pistols and carbines so that all weapon classes have the option to fire in all ranges with reduced damage weaponry for operating outside of thier class specific optimal range. For the sake of argument lets give pistols a 15-35m optimal range carbines a 25-45 optimal range and rifles a 45-65. High damage weaponry would operate within these ranges and as the damage on the weapon decreases due to lower class level the range would increase.

Then add minimum or maximum ranges to certain specials. Lets say that mezz specials were limited to 15m or less. Roots are limited to 30m or less and snares can be fired at 45m or less. You could take it a step further and disallow any special to be used outside of 65m but it's probably not necesary. This gives dabblers access to specials from various classes without homogenizing the ranged proffessions.

Like I said, just a suggestion.

Message Edited by TheSillyOne on 06-24-2005 02:47 AM

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In that scenario rifles can never
a) use one of their own attacks at optimal range (snare, kneecapshot)
b) Use their high damage weapons and optimal range in ANY high end game content that every other profession would be able to enjoy and be fully effective.(or you tell me how I get 45m away from a kwi in the geo, anything in dwb, avatar platform etc)
c) with the hate system as it is currently, any rifleman in any group hits 1 snipershot and they get the aggro, with the mob at melee range, 0m. So not only do you want them to tank, with no melee defence, but not even be able to attack back effectively?

If this is what the pistoleer correspondant proposes I would suggest he should probably stop typing and go get a modicum of understanding about the game.

I like wolveryne`s idea of adding a bayonet to rifle, if you give them min range.

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The_Great_Destroyer wrote:
I think that other professions need to do what we call "cowboying the f*ck up". If anything, Rifleman needs a damage increase because an offense of 5 isn't really any different from an offense of 2 or 3.

As for nerfs, no. Tradeoffs, maybe. If they want to implement a min range, then I'd ask for a few things.

1. Nobody can fire at our range.

2. Every shot from a MR does an armor break attack (you think a T-21 can't punch through whatever they're wearing?).

3. Damage increase such that we can kill anything in the time span it takes to run from 65m to min range (35m or whatever it is). Everyone else is expected to kill in their range without kiting. We should too. (Note that with the current set up, we would kill in one or two hits).

That is what in my mind constitutes a lack of defense, a lack of the ability to kill things close, and the ability to hold them at any range. That would be a fair tradeoff, and I can guarantee you that you'll never see it.

Message Edited by The_Great_Destroyer on 06-22-2005 12:01 PM

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ROFLMAO
You mean you want an "I win button".
If the system is "ballanced" a melee fighter of the same level as you, human or creature, should be able to run up to you, and either kill, or almost kill you before you finish it off, not die before it even gets in range.

Message Edited by LeeSider on 06-24-2005 05:01 AM

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Roscannon wrote:

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The_Great_Destroyer wrote:
I think that other professions need to do what we call "cowboying the f*ck up". If anything, Rifleman needs a damage increase because an offense of 5 isn't really any different from an offense of 2 or 3.

As for nerfs, no. Tradeoffs, maybe. If they want to implement a min range, then I'd ask for a few things.

1. Nobody can fire at our range.

2. Every shot from a MR does an armor break attack (you think a T-21 can't punch through whatever they're wearing?).

3. Damage increase such that we can kill anything in the time span it takes to run from 65m to min range (35m or whatever it is). Everyone else is expected to kill in their range without kiting. We should too. (Note that with the current set up, we would kill in one or two hits).

That is what in my mind constitutes a lack of defense, a lack of the ability to kill things close, and the ability to hold them at any range. That would be a fair tradeoff, and I can guarantee you that you'll never see it.

Message Edited by The_Great_Destroyer on 06-22-2005 12:01 PM

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*waves to the wookiee*

you are correct sir, on every point, in my opinion, humble as it may (or may not) be

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Hey Ros Hope all is well. Had so much fun testing with you and lammer I've been thinking of quietly moving over to TC. Just so darn hard to get started there.

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The_Great_Destroyer wrote:

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LeeSider wrote:

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The_Great_Destroyer wrote:
I think that other professions need to do what we call "cowboying the f*ck up". If anything, Rifleman needs a damage increase because an offense of 5 isn't really any different from an offense of 2 or 3.

As for nerfs, no. Tradeoffs, maybe. If they want to implement a min range, then I'd ask for a few things.

1. Nobody can fire at our range.

2. Every shot from a MR does an armor break attack (you think a T-21 can't punch through whatever they're wearing?).

3. Damage increase such that we can kill anything in the time span it takes to run from 65m to min range (35m or whatever it is). Everyone else is expected to kill in their range without kiting. We should too. (Note that with the current set up, we would kill in one or two hits).

That is what in my mind constitutes a lack of defense, a lack of the ability to kill things close, and the ability to hold them at any range. That would be a fair tradeoff, and I can guarantee you that you'll never see it.

Message Edited by The_Great_Destroyer on 06-22-2005 12:01 PM

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ROFLMAO
You mean you want an "I win button".
If the system is "ballanced" a melee fighter of the same level as you, human or creature, should be able to run up to you, and either kill, or almost kill you before you finish it off, not die before it even gets in range.

Message Edited by LeeSider on 06-24-2005 05:01 AM

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And that's where imbalance comes from. If we are a ranged profession, we must be able to kill at range. That's its entire definition. Melee fighters used to complain that they'd get killed before they get in range. That's deliberate! Melee fighters are supposed to suck at range. That is not their specialty and they should die swiftly at range. However, once they close to melee distance, look out. As it is now, they can still get in melee range very quickly without taking too much damage (barring roots, etc). They still dominate in melee range. What it boils down to is that the meleers want an "I win" button. That they want to be able to kill indiscriminately, not worrying whether their attacker is at 90m, 65m, or 0m because regardless they can run up and wallop them. However, when they get walloped at range, they say it's not balanced and not fair. Sorry, but that's part of being a melee profession. I can accept them excelling once they get in range, but don't take away our ability to do what we're supposed to be able to do best.

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Which was the same situation which led into total Melee dominance in the Pre-CU SWG. It didn't matter, PvE or PvP, melee ruled.

Exactly, which is what I am hoping we can avoid. The more they nerf roots and normalize our damage so we are nothing special (which is what it appears slicing will do with the hard weapon caps, if I understand the system correctly), the fewer ranged you will see once again. There's just no point to giving up all that defense if you can't kill at range.

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valetman wrote:

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TheSillyOne wrote:

just a suggestion, feel free to throw it out. It was a proposed solution by the pistoleer correspondant in a different thread and I'm just throwing some other stuff in here.

Why not alow the lower damage lower cl rifles into the closer ranges thus emulating the accuracy penalties at close range and keep the high powered weaponry to the long range situations. Do the same for pistols and carbines so that all weapon classes have the option to fire in all ranges with reduced damage weaponry for operating outside of thier class specific optimal range. For the sake of argument lets give pistols a 15-35m optimal range carbines a 25-45 optimal range and rifles a 45-65. High damage weaponry would operate within these ranges and as the damage on the weapon decreases due to lower class level the range would increase.

Then add minimum or maximum ranges to certain specials. Lets say that mezz specials were limited to 15m or less. Roots are limited to 30m or less and snares can be fired at 45m or less. You could take it a step further and disallow any special to be used outside of 65m but it's probably not necesary. This gives dabblers access to specials from various classes without homogenizing the ranged proffessions.

Like I said, just a suggestion.

Message Edited by TheSillyOne on 06-24-2005 02:47 AM

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In that scenario rifles can never
a) use one of their own attacks at optimal range (snare, kneecapshot)
b) Use their high damage weapons and optimal range in ANY high end game content that every other profession would be able to enjoy and be fully effective.(or you tell me how I get 45m away from a kwi in the geo, anything in dwb, avatar platform etc)
c) with the hate system as it is currently, any rifleman in any group hits 1 snipershot and they get the aggro, with the mob at melee range, 0m. So not only do you want them to tank, with no melee defence, but not even be able to attack back effectively?

If this is what the pistoleer correspondant proposes I would suggest he should probably stop typing and go get a modicum of understanding about the game.

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The easiest solution I can see is to adjust ranges for all ranged combatants.


Let everyone shoot out to 65 meters, but put a penalty based on weapon type at different ranges.

Pistol: 0-25 no penalty 26-45 10% reduction 46-65 20% reduction

Carbine: 0-20 15% reduction 21-45 no reduction 46-65 15% reduction

Rifle: 0-20 20% reduction 21-40 10% reduction 41-65 No Reduction


This then gives each weapon type a specific prime range (25 meters worth) and two penalized ranges (each 20meters worth) Pistols are better close and get progressively worse. Rifles are better far and lose accuracy up close. And carbines are better at mid ranges and lose some accuracy at close and long ranges.


The damages on weapons are already factored in a similar manner, Pistols=high speed, low damage: Carbines=moderate speed, moderate damage: Rifles=low speed, high damage.



But if they really insist on some insane nerfs to accuracy and minimum ranges, please push to have the stupid movement penalty removed so that we can actually attempt to stay in a range we can fight at. (still don't see how a yahoo with a 30 pound hammer runs faster than a guy with a 15 pound rifle, but oh well)

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Thatguyfubu wrote:

nerfing is the absolute WRONG thing to do. I agree with the other poster about changing the arm from range to accuracy. This is what I propose.

Change cyber arm from ranged to accuracy

Move the ALR to a MRifleman only weapon

Change the T21 to kinetic to give a valid purpose again

Remove hinderance for carrying a pistol and lessen it for a carbine

Allow pistols and carbines to be fired at 65m but with an accuracy penalty

Never Ever include a minimum range (really if you think about it, it should be easier to shoot something at point blank)

Leave specials as they are

DO NOT NERF ANYTHING (well you could nerf them Jedi and I wouldn't mind)

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Great ideas.

I especially like the T-21 being kinetic, I mean, have you listened to it fire?

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TheSillyOne wrote:

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valetman wrote:

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TheSillyOne wrote:

just a suggestion, feel free to throw it out. It was a proposed solution by the pistoleer correspondant in a different thread and I'm just throwing some other stuff in here.

Why not alow the lower damage lower cl rifles into the closer ranges thus emulating the accuracy penalties at close range and keep the high powered weaponry to the long range situations. Do the same for pistols and carbines so that all weapon classes have the option to fire in all ranges with reduced damage weaponry for operating outside of thier class specific optimal range. For the sake of argument lets give pistols a 15-35m optimal range carbines a 25-45 optimal range and rifles a 45-65. High damage weaponry would operate within these ranges and as the damage on the weapon decreases due to lower class level the range would increase.

Then add minimum or maximum ranges to certain specials. Lets say that mezz specials were limited to 15m or less. Roots are limited to 30m or less and snares can be fired at 45m or less. You could take it a step further and disallow any special to be used outside of 65m but it's probably not necesary. This gives dabblers access to specials from various classes without homogenizing the ranged proffessions.

Like I said, just a suggestion.

Message Edited by TheSillyOne on 06-24-2005 02:47 AM

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In that scenario rifles can never
a) use one of their own attacks at optimal range (snare, kneecapshot)
b) Use their high damage weapons and optimal range in ANY high end game content that every other profession would be able to enjoy and be fully effective.(or you tell me how I get 45m away from a kwi in the geo, anything in dwb, avatar platform etc)
c) with the hate system as it is currently, any rifleman in any group hits 1 snipershot and they get the aggro, with the mob at melee range, 0m. So not only do you want them to tank, with no melee defence, but not even be able to attack back effectively?

If this is what the pistoleer correspondant proposes I would suggest he should probably stop typing and go get a modicum of understanding about the game.

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ok then

a. move mez out to 35m, roots to 50m and snare to 65m

b. accept your role in combat. (talk to melee about grinding groups and I'm sure they'll sympathise with the situation of not being able to get hits in)

c. don't hit sniper shot if the mob is not rooted- the hate system is goofy but if you lay off the high damage shots until it's tactically feasible to execute them you'll find yourself in a lot better fighting position.

Don't insult folks who are trying to solve a problem. If y'all don't come up with a solution for yourselves the dev's are gonna come up with one for you. Do you really want that?

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maybe hes insulting because you are asking for a system which, as he highlights in B but you skirt around and never address, you lock riflemen out of the high end content?

If I said to you you couldnt use any good pistols in the geo, or the DWB or the avatar, you would soon be crying.
Yet that is EXACTLY what you are saying to riflemen.
Last I saw rifleman paid the same subscriptions as you, so why should you access content, using the best of your abilities, that a rifleman is denied?

As for C), thats all well and good on paper, but in practice, whatever you do, the rifleman who uses his specials will end up with the aggro.

You of course there dont address the situation of a rifleman soloing at all, how do you recommend he goes about that?
Or is solo play something else you see as not a right of someone who plays rifleman (And who isnt necessarily FOTM RM/BH/pistols or smuggler , and doesnt have access to roots)
Remember a rifleman has no roots, no means of keeping the mob from closing within this minimum effective range you propose. EVERY other ranged proff does.Another failing of this proposal.

BAH!

Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 06-24-2005 12:03 AM