Rifleman Archive
Thread: -=Rifleman semi-bi-weekly state of the profession address=- June 20 2005
Page 8 of 8
KapowBzapp
Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:02 am
#92
Akehece a little rumor control might be good at this point. The TC patch lists a 20m minimum range for Sniper Shot and nothing else.
I may not speak for everyone but a minimum range on our best specials is something I could live with. Pre-CU we had dreadful accuracy up close and the CU gave us a free ride on that. If the three marksman elites were distinguished by the ranges at which their specials work, they would each hold an obvious appeal, and you might not see so many ALRs (ie. if your special works in carbine range, why not use a carbine and get your carbine bonuses?)
A tradeoff I'd love to argue for would be for Sniper Shot to be just as accurate as my other attacks. Was there ever a dev statement on why it misses so often? PvP balance maybe?
I may not speak for everyone but a minimum range on our best specials is something I could live with. Pre-CU we had dreadful accuracy up close and the CU gave us a free ride on that. If the three marksman elites were distinguished by the ranges at which their specials work, they would each hold an obvious appeal, and you might not see so many ALRs (ie. if your special works in carbine range, why not use a carbine and get your carbine bonuses?)
A tradeoff I'd love to argue for would be for Sniper Shot to be just as accurate as my other attacks. Was there ever a dev statement on why it misses so often? PvP balance maybe?
Ackehece
Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:08 am
#93
KapowBzapp wrote:
Akehece a little rumor control might be good at this point. The TC patch lists a 20m minimum range for Sniper Shot and nothing else.
I may not speak for everyone but a minimum range on our best specials is something I could live with. Pre-CU we had dreadful accuracy up close and the CU gave us a free ride on that. If the three marksman elites were distinguished by the ranges at which their specials work, they would each hold an obvious appeal, and you might not see so many ALRs (ie. if your special works in carbine range, why not use a carbine and get your carbine bonuses?)
A tradeoff I'd love to argue for would be for Sniper Shot to be just as accurate as my other attacks. Was there ever a dev statement on why it misses so often? PvP balance maybe?
This thread has been fairly undercontrol so I have been letting it run. It appears they have backed off a little on the idea of making all rifle specials require a min again but it is best to be prepared. We are supposed to get a ranged accuracy penalty at close range but as shown earlier in this thread even that appears to be reversed on TC.
As to accuracy on snipershot... I hit well over 85% of the time with it. That appears to be the regular rifleman miss rate.
KapowBzapp
Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:10 am
#94
Just to make myself more unpopular I'm going to question whether the hate system is such a problem. It makes perfect sense for a mob to aggro most on whatever's killing it instead of the TKA calling it rude names. In group combat this just means moving the highest damage attacks to the end instead of the beginning.
In fact I've regularly used this to my group's advantage. While wearing down an opponent I use Startle and non-Rifleman specials to help the close range people. Letting off sniper shots near the ends draws hate, and the mob spends the last few seconds of its life trying to charge me rather than attacking anyone. You can really pad this time out if your group can chain root attacks while you work.
A possible improvement to make people happier would be to substantially reduce (but not eliminate) the hate produced by Conceal Shot: if the mob can't tell where the damage is coming from, the Rifleman shouldn't stand out on its hate meter. Making it a percentage reduction would make the hate still accumulate, so the solo Rifleman would still eventually get found out.
In fact I've regularly used this to my group's advantage. While wearing down an opponent I use Startle and non-Rifleman specials to help the close range people. Letting off sniper shots near the ends draws hate, and the mob spends the last few seconds of its life trying to charge me rather than attacking anyone. You can really pad this time out if your group can chain root attacks while you work.
A possible improvement to make people happier would be to substantially reduce (but not eliminate) the hate produced by Conceal Shot: if the mob can't tell where the damage is coming from, the Rifleman shouldn't stand out on its hate meter. Making it a percentage reduction would make the hate still accumulate, so the solo Rifleman would still eventually get found out.
Message Edited by KapowBzapp on 06-27-2005 07:14 AM
Vicotnik
Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:27 am
#95
KapowBzapp wrote:
Just to make myself more unpopular I'm going to question whether the hate system is such a problem. It makes perfect sense for a mob to aggro most on whatever's killing it instead of the TKA calling it rude names. In group combat this just means moving the highest damage attacks to the end instead of the beginning.
I'm going to say the opposite, and that it makes absolutely no sense at all for a mob to do that. 
I mean, in a fight where you have one person beating on you with their fists and feets, and someone else 65 meters away with a rifle. Would you ignore the imediate threat of the guy beating on you, rush past him just to charge the rifle-user 65 meters away?
valetman
Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:09 am
#96
Vicotnik wrote:
KapowBzapp wrote:
Just to make myself more unpopular I'm going to question whether the hate system is such a problem. It makes perfect sense for a mob to aggro most on whatever's killing it instead of the TKA calling it rude names. In group combat this just means moving the highest damage attacks to the end instead of the beginning.
I'm going to say the opposite, and that it makes absolutely no sense at all for a mob to do that.
I mean, in a fight where you have one person beating on you with their fists and feets, and someone else 65 meters away with a rifle. Would you ignore the imediate threat of the guy beating on you, rush past him just to charge the rifle-user 65 meters away?
And Ill say something else
Irrespective of real life examples from either, the fact of the matter is simple.
TK has very little going for it currently, other than good defence , and tanking.
The fact they can't hold aggro is a major problem, as that is the role the CU gave them.
Not being able to tank is a big problem for a tank,and a serious game issue in general whatever spin anyone wishes to put on it.
Realistic or not, it isnt working as it is supposed to, nor how the Devs told us it would work.
Making changes, as they currently are, on the group dynamic based on a bugged group combat system is asking for disaster.
ObiQuixote
Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:30 am
#97
Think one of the problems now is that you can stack general ranged accuracy and speed up high enough that it really doesn’t matter what weapon you use, which has lead to the problem of everyone using rifles for their range and damage.
Ideas to help this curb this:
1. Put more emphasis on weapon type skills and less on the general skills in the profession trees.
2. Make all weapons above level 45 profession specific. The Advanced laser is really the greatest instigator of this problem.
3. Give all specials a preferred weapon type. When shooting a special not using the preferred weapon check to see what stats are lower and use those. So if your using a rifle and shoot off a pistol special, the game would look at you’re stats holding a rifle and your stats holding a pistol. It would then fire that special with whatever stats are lowest.
If they are dead set on range penalties this is where I would put them as well. Range penalties would only apply when not using the right weapon with a special.
4. Re adjust the special stats. They were designed before the ability to cross-use specials became needed. Some of them were designed to be used with specific weapons and became out of balance once people started matching specials with different weapons. For example the highest damage special that is practical to use in combat is critical shot, which doesn’t fit the long range nuker description for rifleman.
I hate being in the “Balance Crosshairs” One thing time has shown is that once the developers think something is to powerful they don’t balance it, they completely destroy it.
Ideas to help this curb this:
1. Put more emphasis on weapon type skills and less on the general skills in the profession trees.
2. Make all weapons above level 45 profession specific. The Advanced laser is really the greatest instigator of this problem.
3. Give all specials a preferred weapon type. When shooting a special not using the preferred weapon check to see what stats are lower and use those. So if your using a rifle and shoot off a pistol special, the game would look at you’re stats holding a rifle and your stats holding a pistol. It would then fire that special with whatever stats are lowest.
If they are dead set on range penalties this is where I would put them as well. Range penalties would only apply when not using the right weapon with a special.
4. Re adjust the special stats. They were designed before the ability to cross-use specials became needed. Some of them were designed to be used with specific weapons and became out of balance once people started matching specials with different weapons. For example the highest damage special that is practical to use in combat is critical shot, which doesn’t fit the long range nuker description for rifleman.
I hate being in the “Balance Crosshairs” One thing time has shown is that once the developers think something is to powerful they don’t balance it, they completely destroy it.
Message Edited by ObiQuixote on 06-27-2005 09:35 AM
KapowBzapp
Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:42 am
#98
Vicotnik wrote:I mean, in a fight where you have one person beating on you with their fists and feets, and someone else 65 meters away with a rifle. Would you ignore the imediate threat of the guy beating on you, rush past him just to charge the rifle-user 65 meters away?
If the guy beating on you is doing negligible damage compared to the rifle user, it would make complete sense. The rifle user is more likely to kill you, and therefore a much more "immediate" threat despite being farther away.
ObiQuixote
Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:42 pm
#99
Ackehece wrote:
they were not referring only to snipershot though.... if they do that to snipershot and that is the end of it - well and good. But they were talking much much more for min ranges.
This was discussed extensively in the CU and I thought it was made pretty clear that balancing with minimum range kills the profession. Rifle cant stand on it's own with a minimum range. That was proven when the game first came out when we for all intents and purposes had a minimum range. Other means of balance need to be found.
What exactly is the perceived problem from the Devs point of view? Because I don't see what a minimum range is supposed to fix.
briwi
Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:40 pm
#100
If I had a five year old kicking me in the kneeanda 21 year old throwing rocks,I would rush the 21 year old.Because something is closer doesnt always make itmore dangerous,it would only make sense to close distance on whats hurting you the most.The reason I used age and rocks is because if I was engaged in close range combat and someone started shooting at me IRL I would run away and find cover.I am a MRifle and it does suck to have mods attack me and incap me so fast when I shoot but thats the risk I take when I go hunting with groups that cant kill them fast enough.
GraySeven
Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:12 am
#101
briwi wrote:
If I had a five year old kicking me in the kneeanda 21 year old throwing rocks,I would rush the 21 year old.Because something is closer doesnt always make itmore dangerous,it would only make sense to close distance on whats hurting you the most.The reason I used age and rocks is because if I was engaged in close range combat and someone started shooting at me IRL I would run away and find cover.I am a MRifle and it does suck to have mods attack me and incap me so fast when I shoot but thats the risk I take when I go hunting with groups that cant kill them fast enough.
Not a valid argument, for many reasons.
1st, both the melee and ranged are doing damage. Even if the ranged is doing more (and we all know it isn't really much more) would you ignore the closest threat and take damage until you were able to close range? Through snares and roots and kiting, you would end up killing yourself, not to mention the melee guy is still going to be laying into you.
2nd, what if the melee guy doesn't want you to get by him?
3rd, with the AI attacking the highest damaging PC, it makes completely worthless any TK tanking ability. TK's are supposed to be the big tanks, and they can't because their damage output doesn't draw enough agro for their tanking skills to be effective, thereby totally destroying the supposed balance that made TK's low damage dealing, high damage surviving tanks.
This isn't "improved AI for NPC's" its just different and completely wrong AI for NPC's.
briwi
Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:15 pm
#102
So if you had something doing 10hp per second or one doing 100,you would take time to kill the 10 the whole time the 100 is hurting you? I understand the tank isnt working like it should but it does make sence to kill the thing hurting you the most first.
Kahnindustries
Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:35 am
#103
Hey guys, just thought i would post as this is begining to bug me.
When i started playing 6 months ago I decided i was going to play a weaponsmith rifleman. I ground my way up to Mrm Mws Mmarksman and artisan 4140. I then stopped messing with my template. I never used a single respec, i just shut up and took it everytime they messed about, frankly its a game if they mess with the rules you adapt (and i dont mean just respeccing to the profession that is currently at the top of the heap).
Im the guild weaponsmith for KEEP and take it quite seriously so before you say it no dropping that, I will be dropping master marksman and my pistol line to allow the force sensitive crafting lines in.
I never pvp and when i am not crafting I go around helping my guildmates with their content, complete new content for myself or hunt things for the various items the guild needs (bits for me, bits for armoursmiths and now bits for smugglers etc).
This commitment to crafting means that i am cl56 and i will always be cl56. This also means that almost everything in the game i need to fight for content or to help guildies will agro on me as soon as i step within 64m, with my 80m range i can get one shot off before a firing mob can attack me 2 or 3 before a melee, unless i kite. I can only kite with at least one other person laying states on the mob to slow it down ontop of our woefully weak snare. My attacks are far slower than any other profession in the game (usually at a rate of 3:1) and with only a 10-15% damage increase over actual damage done to any mob by all others in the group. This is just enough for it to agro me, and not enough for me to kill it.
A minimum range would eliminate all content in this game that i can think of, my entire game would consist of waiting for guildies to bring me orders or flying to the various large city bazaars to purchase my ore. I would not be able to travel to venders in player cities without shuttleports (and then it would be a risk), would not be able to travel any distance on almost any plannet, would not be able to use miners to collect ore, would not be able to join in hunts, would not be able to complete any of the story driven missions in the game. Effectivly there would be nothing I could do.
As for the people complaining about range unbalancing pvp, in real life i fire target rifles for my country. 7.62mm with iron sights. The ranges i shoot at are 300, 500, 600, 900 and 1000 yards, the bullets I use will travel through any form of personal armour in the world without any noticable reduction in damage. I fire 12 rounds in 20 mins. When I use an SA80 (Assault rifle) i fire at ranges up to 300 yards, they use a 5.56mm round (the same as the m16 or m4) will penetrate all personal armour and will kill you almost every time (unless it hits an extremity then your just having an amputation) and i can fire at a rate of 30 rounds in 10 seconds to a minute. As for pistols, at a range between 30 meters and 100 meters you have an 80% chance of missing your opponent most kevlar vests will stop most amunition and a determined attacker quite often will continue his attack after being wounded by these bullets. Even with a fatal wounding, you will also empty your 10-30 round clip in a similar time to that of the carbine.
Now tell me does anything in the above paragraph seem even slightly reminicent of what goes on in the game? lets translate this into game mechanics.
Ranges should be pistol Ym, carbine Yx3 and rifle Yx10.
Damage, pistol full effect of armour (with a modifyer for specific weapons) and a damage rating of Y, carbine half armour effectiveness damage rating of Yx2, rifle no armour effectiveness damage of Yx2.
Rate of fire? Pistol Y, Carbine Y, Rifle Y/10.
Accuracy would involve ranges again (using 80m as the maximum attack distance in game) but on average
Pistol 0-10m 100% 11m-30m 20% 31m-50m 10% 51m-65m 5% 65m-80m 1%
Carbine 0-10m 5% 11m-30m 100% 31m-50m 50% 51m-65m 10% 65m-80m 5%
Rifle 0-10m 1% 11m-30m 5% 31m-50m 20% 51m-65m 80% 65m-80m 100%
Add a modifier for speed of target reducing accuracy still, add set up times to the rifleman, fix conceal so that it actually works like a concealed person, not a magical +2 shots in pve +1 in pvp.
We get no specials and one attack that does our 10x damage, this works concealed or not and movement penalties (big ones, ie once your set up it takes 20seconds to get up and a min to set up). The riflemans skill will lay in positioning. Carbineer gets a spray shot that slows things down and does low damage AOE, an aimed shot that does the same damage as us and is slow, a rapid shot that lowers accuracy and why not some sort or but whip, the skill in carbine will lie in knowing what to use when and controling the location of your target. Pistols get a aimed shot, a super rapid inacurate shot and some form of state laying shots and movement benefits, the skill in pistols would lie in how quick you can hit the right buttons at the right time while moving and utilising cover.
That is my vision of the ideal ranged component of the perfect mmorpg. However you would find massive imbalances and it would not really work in SWG. Also if this ever did get implemented the first thing that would need to be done is the respec system would need to be removed entirely. You chose it your stuck with it. It does not matter that it was different when you took it, some people got lucky, some people didnt. You dont like it drop that skill and earn a new one.
In the above system Comando would be a heavy weapons specialist whos attributes are based on his weapons, but in general along the lines of if he has something big and ranged he gets mega speed penalties and uber accuracy, flamethrower esque, crazy rate of fire short range, all with movement penalties. Heavier the armour the heavier your movement penalty to for all templates.
Bounty hunters would be one of the above with a bounty hunting section treated as a money earning/crafting component same for smugglers etc.
You would be able to master 1 combat skill and 1 money earning/crafting skill and it would take you a very long time to do it.
I have no idea what to do for melee, but then who brings a knife to a gunfight....a lightsaber is a diferent matter.
As for fixing the problems in the game?
Tie skills to weapon types
Give rifle a better snare (not a root)
Tie skills to weapon types
Stop mobs warping
Tie skills to weapon types
Stop group members breaking conceal
Tie skills to weapon types
Make mastering a profession alot harder
Tie skills to weapon types
Also fire the idiot that decided to untie skills from weapon types
"I will shoot you straight in the eye with my rocket launcher momentarily hindering your accuracy" or "I will spray amunition around you from my bolt action hunting rifle pinning you all to the ground"
To be honest all i really want is some common sence and a little bit of realism, yes this is a game, but it is a game you play against other people, you want 50:50 excitement and frustration so that the guys your up against get the same.
Well thats my rant over with, anyone see anything of any use in that post?
When i started playing 6 months ago I decided i was going to play a weaponsmith rifleman. I ground my way up to Mrm Mws Mmarksman and artisan 4140. I then stopped messing with my template. I never used a single respec, i just shut up and took it everytime they messed about, frankly its a game if they mess with the rules you adapt (and i dont mean just respeccing to the profession that is currently at the top of the heap).
Im the guild weaponsmith for KEEP and take it quite seriously so before you say it no dropping that, I will be dropping master marksman and my pistol line to allow the force sensitive crafting lines in.
I never pvp and when i am not crafting I go around helping my guildmates with their content, complete new content for myself or hunt things for the various items the guild needs (bits for me, bits for armoursmiths and now bits for smugglers etc).
This commitment to crafting means that i am cl56 and i will always be cl56. This also means that almost everything in the game i need to fight for content or to help guildies will agro on me as soon as i step within 64m, with my 80m range i can get one shot off before a firing mob can attack me 2 or 3 before a melee, unless i kite. I can only kite with at least one other person laying states on the mob to slow it down ontop of our woefully weak snare. My attacks are far slower than any other profession in the game (usually at a rate of 3:1) and with only a 10-15% damage increase over actual damage done to any mob by all others in the group. This is just enough for it to agro me, and not enough for me to kill it.
A minimum range would eliminate all content in this game that i can think of, my entire game would consist of waiting for guildies to bring me orders or flying to the various large city bazaars to purchase my ore. I would not be able to travel to venders in player cities without shuttleports (and then it would be a risk), would not be able to travel any distance on almost any plannet, would not be able to use miners to collect ore, would not be able to join in hunts, would not be able to complete any of the story driven missions in the game. Effectivly there would be nothing I could do.
As for the people complaining about range unbalancing pvp, in real life i fire target rifles for my country. 7.62mm with iron sights. The ranges i shoot at are 300, 500, 600, 900 and 1000 yards, the bullets I use will travel through any form of personal armour in the world without any noticable reduction in damage. I fire 12 rounds in 20 mins. When I use an SA80 (Assault rifle) i fire at ranges up to 300 yards, they use a 5.56mm round (the same as the m16 or m4) will penetrate all personal armour and will kill you almost every time (unless it hits an extremity then your just having an amputation) and i can fire at a rate of 30 rounds in 10 seconds to a minute. As for pistols, at a range between 30 meters and 100 meters you have an 80% chance of missing your opponent most kevlar vests will stop most amunition and a determined attacker quite often will continue his attack after being wounded by these bullets. Even with a fatal wounding, you will also empty your 10-30 round clip in a similar time to that of the carbine.
Now tell me does anything in the above paragraph seem even slightly reminicent of what goes on in the game? lets translate this into game mechanics.
Ranges should be pistol Ym, carbine Yx3 and rifle Yx10.
Damage, pistol full effect of armour (with a modifyer for specific weapons) and a damage rating of Y, carbine half armour effectiveness damage rating of Yx2, rifle no armour effectiveness damage of Yx2.
Rate of fire? Pistol Y, Carbine Y, Rifle Y/10.
Accuracy would involve ranges again (using 80m as the maximum attack distance in game) but on average
Pistol 0-10m 100% 11m-30m 20% 31m-50m 10% 51m-65m 5% 65m-80m 1%
Carbine 0-10m 5% 11m-30m 100% 31m-50m 50% 51m-65m 10% 65m-80m 5%
Rifle 0-10m 1% 11m-30m 5% 31m-50m 20% 51m-65m 80% 65m-80m 100%
Add a modifier for speed of target reducing accuracy still, add set up times to the rifleman, fix conceal so that it actually works like a concealed person, not a magical +2 shots in pve +1 in pvp.
We get no specials and one attack that does our 10x damage, this works concealed or not and movement penalties (big ones, ie once your set up it takes 20seconds to get up and a min to set up). The riflemans skill will lay in positioning. Carbineer gets a spray shot that slows things down and does low damage AOE, an aimed shot that does the same damage as us and is slow, a rapid shot that lowers accuracy and why not some sort or but whip, the skill in carbine will lie in knowing what to use when and controling the location of your target. Pistols get a aimed shot, a super rapid inacurate shot and some form of state laying shots and movement benefits, the skill in pistols would lie in how quick you can hit the right buttons at the right time while moving and utilising cover.
That is my vision of the ideal ranged component of the perfect mmorpg. However you would find massive imbalances and it would not really work in SWG. Also if this ever did get implemented the first thing that would need to be done is the respec system would need to be removed entirely. You chose it your stuck with it. It does not matter that it was different when you took it, some people got lucky, some people didnt. You dont like it drop that skill and earn a new one.
In the above system Comando would be a heavy weapons specialist whos attributes are based on his weapons, but in general along the lines of if he has something big and ranged he gets mega speed penalties and uber accuracy, flamethrower esque, crazy rate of fire short range, all with movement penalties. Heavier the armour the heavier your movement penalty to for all templates.
Bounty hunters would be one of the above with a bounty hunting section treated as a money earning/crafting component same for smugglers etc.
You would be able to master 1 combat skill and 1 money earning/crafting skill and it would take you a very long time to do it.
I have no idea what to do for melee, but then who brings a knife to a gunfight....a lightsaber is a diferent matter.
As for fixing the problems in the game?
Tie skills to weapon types
Give rifle a better snare (not a root)
Tie skills to weapon types
Stop mobs warping
Tie skills to weapon types
Stop group members breaking conceal
Tie skills to weapon types
Make mastering a profession alot harder
Tie skills to weapon types
Also fire the idiot that decided to untie skills from weapon types
"I will shoot you straight in the eye with my rocket launcher momentarily hindering your accuracy" or "I will spray amunition around you from my bolt action hunting rifle pinning you all to the ground"
To be honest all i really want is some common sence and a little bit of realism, yes this is a game, but it is a game you play against other people, you want 50:50 excitement and frustration so that the guys your up against get the same.
Well thats my rant over with, anyone see anything of any use in that post?
GraySeven
Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:01 pm
#104
briwi wrote:
So if you had something doing 10hp per second or one doing 100,you would take time to kill the 10 the whole time the 100 is hurting you? I understand the tank isnt working like it should but it does make sence to kill the thing hurting you the most first.
Not a valid argument. The difference in the damage I do and the damage the tank does isn't 10x so this doesn't explain anything. If you want to go by DPS ( a totally unrealistic stat ) the difference is between 542 DPS (mine with my best rifle) and 482 DPS (the Swordsman/TK I was fighting with). The 482 DPS person IN HIS FACE was being completely ignored in favor of trying to get to me. So while I was kiting, the MOB was totally dedicated to killing me and doing ZERO damage to the person the MOB could hit. And Taunt was doing nothing, because as soon as I hit the MOB it completely forgot about the guy RIGHT IN FRONT OF IT HITTING FOR ONLY 60 DPS LESS THAN I WAS....
What part of THAT makes sense to you?
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