Rifleman Archive
Thread: Beating Feign Death
Tyyylowyspetily wrote:
wait, did you say the target is moving too, and both of you at a full run? I don'tknow where I 'said' that, but itwouldn't be hard to do. Especially since firing several times per second is perfectly realistic.Alright. Let me refresh your memory. Your post (the one to which I responded) was made in response to a post which very specifically mentions firing on a moving target, while running- to which you replied- "100 feet isn't very far". My point was that I did not say it- someone else did. Me agreeing with it is not the same as me saying it. I just don't like having words 'put into my mouth' so to speak.
The next part of this is plain silly. "It wouldn't be hard to do".Ever tried firing a rifle one handed? I didn't find it easy in the least. That's unimportant. This is merely an animation put into the game by people who know as much about guns as the average person knows about building a spaceship. If you has a rifle and it were easier to fire with two hands than one, you would use two.
A person "with a brain in their heads" wouldn't try what you would call "not hard to do" at all. Whether I have a brain or not isn't the issue here(though I bet I do
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They might run a small distance, stop, and fire a shot after adressing the target. That'd be nice, but the 'technical contraints' of this system makea Rifleman who stops= a dead Rifleman.
Firing at a running target, while you yourself are on the move, running away from that target, is anything but easy.I would call hitting that 100 ft distant target under those circumstances unlikely. I would call hitting that target consistantly within the bounds of possibilty, though not probability, if I were feeling generous. At least it's just as difficult for them as it is for you, right?
And if that person is a melee fighter, then who cares if it takes you 5 seconds to hit them as opposed to 1 or 2. Hitting consistently may be difficult, but in real life that wouldn't be an issue as the first hit or two would end it. In SWG, I would love for the number of hits required to incapacitate your opponent to decrease if it meant the number of times youwould normally hit them in a given time period drastically dsecreases.It sounds like you would agree.
Next up, is this notion of firing several times per second. Burst fire can be used to mitigate some, though not all, of the the accuracy lost while moving. The main use of automatic fire however, is supression.This is not to say that an automatic weapon on the proper mounts can't be accurate. However, you're not going to hit much while running and firing on full auto. Well, actually, you'll hit plenty, afterall, each round gets stopped by something sooner or later- just not what youwere hoping to hit.I'm no expert(nor will I ever likely be
), but wouldn't 'suppression' slow down or stop the target? Then you would have nothing preventing you from stopping and taking aim to hit the target. In SWG, the only way for a Rifleman to stop to shoot a closingplayer is if they, too, stop.
Again, no context given. Hey, I never said I'm the one setting up the 'contexts' for all the dumb arguements people start here. This is a practice which can imply validity toflawed arguments, which is why it drives me nuts. Totally true. Just a few variables to chew on:size of the target, position of the target, field of view, lighting, the weapon involved, motion of the target, motion of the shooter, weather conditions, stress level. There are more, but I think that's enough to illustrate the point. 100 ft, is point blank under ideal conditions.Conditions, however, are not always ideal. I'm aware of variables, but that's much more of a real world thing than a SWG thing. Weapon involved, motion of shooter and target, and position(distance) of target are variables we deal with. The rest never come into play and that is why one can 'force' ideal situations to occur more often than not.
Here, we are in 100% complete agreement.I can't stand watching people shrug off arocket to the head as they might shrug offa mosquito bite, then run up and beat an armored target to death with a night stick. That's why I'd like to see us move away from where we are to something a bit(a lot
The range is limited by technical issues, and it is what it is. /shrug. The concept of accuracy is a game mechanic and balance issue, and should not be tied in any way to reality. It doesn't have to be exactly the same as reality(the game should be fun and challenging above being real after all
Here's at least hoping that this is incorrect. Skill can play a part now. I'd like to see that part expanded upon. As would I, but all you have to do is hit buttons now. Not something very 'skillful'
JTL will be for sure, so that's something at least. When we see this 'revamp' for the first time, maybe there will be an opening for skill to play a part. I hope so.
Message Edited by XaverriJade7 on 09-30-2004 03:18 PM
CrashNgoBoom wrote:
Tyyylowspetily, sorry for the confusion on who qualified what, must have lost track of who posted what.
No worries man. It happens. Hope you got a chuckle out of my qual day results. Some lessons stick with youfor a verylong time (like not taking any shot for granted). I'm just gladI learned that one vs. a paper adversary.
But anyways, back to the point. FD should just make you "appear" dead, but if your enemy decides he wants to put a few rounds in your head, you should still die. The ability is called "Feign Death", not "Look at me I can't die."
Hehe, what was the point again? Oh yeah, FD. Alright, here's how I see it. You can't take FD from smuggler. That's just an unearned"lowblow". This is a profession that spends 48 skill points in combat skills (why notpistols and artisan (engineering), I'll never know, but that's beside the point. They are a hybrid combat profession with not much going for their combat effectiveness, unless they dip intoeither pistoleer,or BH for some speed and accuracy. I know they have other possiblilites, but sticking to what can make the dirty fighting tree effective, means pistols. No one wants to see smugglers get nerfed, simply because some dabblers use the FD skillin a clever, but clearly unfairway. Here's a possible solution. Leave FD as is PVE. I mean, seriously, what does anyone care if it fools nightsisters?
In PVP however, the use of fiegn death couldproduce a timer, similar to the one that goes into effect when trying to go covert, which prohibits the smuggler from attacking another player (unless first attacked) for one hour. That means, no more popping up and using torso shot, or tossing a poison, or whatever means you have of laying down a DOT and laying down to play dead again. You are out of the fight, period. FD then becomes a tool of last resort only. As a nod to those that are concerned with risking a PVP loss and loss of rating when the other person fiegns, by fiegning, that person accepts a loss of PVP rating, and exp loss (for Jedi), though not as severe as cloning. The same as being DB'd. The underworld skill would mitigate the loss of rating somewhat, with masterslosing very little (say- 10% of the normal loss)so more dedictated smuggler players are not slighted using this system. If there is a BHmission involved,theBH wouldget paid (the person or entity granting the contract believes the reports that the Jedi is in fact, dead), and the mission is considered complete. No, not as satisfying as a real death blow, but now what you would have is a tool to lessen exp loss by Jedi, though not avoid it completely(thus giving a good reason to want this skill, but balancing it), prevent griefing by BH's, and allow smugglers to keep their most valuable combat skill. That's my best crack at it anyway.
rgrocott wrote:
Yes, it is a get out of jail free card.You didn't see a smuggler using FD get killed. You saw a smuggler who voluntarily STOPPED using FD get killed. There is no 'outfoxing' here. I have seen several smugglers state that when they FD, they'll just go and do something else for a while, and check back every now and then to see if the attacker is still there. They may even just tab out and let their connection time out. You can't seriously be suggesting that it's reasonable to expect a BH to wait ATKin one spot for hours (potentially) to collect one bounty? And here I quote:
We will have to agree to disagree here. The topic was on how to beat FD. Ifyour only measure of "beating" FD is that your "forced" them out of it, then you are right, you cannot "beat" FD. On the other hand, if actually killing themis the measure, then using the tactics I described will beat that move. I am not saying FD does not need to be fixed, but I am saying that even as it is now, it can be beaten. Can you force them out of it? No. But even your own comment above indicates that the thing that will get them to come out of FD is that you do not stay in one place for hours waiting for them to come out of it. You move off and lull them into thinking they are safe, then come back. No disrespect intended so please take this in the lighthearted way it is meant, but saying they will not come out of FD while I am sitting there reminds me a bit of that old joke, Patient: "Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when I do this. " Doctor: "Then don't do that."
This is no different to 'forcing' the BH to wait for hours in one spot to collect the bounty. At the end of the day, nobody is 'forced' to play this game, and the Jedi player knows that they'll be hunted. If they don't want to accept that, well guess what, they don't earn the right to massacre multiple non-FS toons at will by reaching the higher levels. To be honest, I never think the "affects real people's lives" argument is valid, because the logical conclusion is that you should never PvP, and should CERTAINLY never try to take down a base in the GCW.After all, real people spent real time grinding for that base, you can't just take it away from them! I reiterate my statement, that if Jedi weren't supposed to lose XP if a BH takes them down, then the system wouldn't work the way it does. A shaky proposition, of course - suggesting that everything in this game works the way it should
No one is forcing the BH to take the contract to begin with. If you do not want to sit there for hours waiting to collect your bounty, then go out and run missions. In that same time period, I can run missions and make far more credits and XP than you are going to make off of a low level Jedi who is FD'ing on you.
Likewise, you keep coming back to the idea that the Jedi know that they will be hunted as justification for forced PvP. There are plenty of people who would like to be a Jedi who have no interest in PvP whatsoever. And while the game may be designed in a way that, if you do Jedi things publicly that you end up on the terms, you seem to be missing the point that Jedi can do everything in their power to stay off the terms (i.e., never equipping their robes or lightsabers in public or in NPC view...never using force powers in the same circumstances) and still end up on the terms for as long as 3 weeks. For a time, some people grinding FS Enhanced skills, who were not even Jedi Initiate yet, were ending up on the terms. Now you can say what you will about how all the BH is doing is taking a mission, but the bottom line is it is forced PvP and involuntary on the Jedi who finds himself in that situation.
But it is pointless discussing this fact. You are right. BHs being able to takemissions to kill Jedi is intended to limit the population. However,Jedi do not belong in the game at this point in time, which means that having a profession who's job it is to limit them is a pointless task. The whole system will be the ruin of the game because they have already made achieving Jedi the ultimate reward, opened the door so that virutally anyone can do it, then made it so frustratingly hard to get to the top that the only thing one can do is grind out XP constantly. Then, if they do, they set themselves up to have someone come, uninvited, to steal huge chunks of XP from them even if they have no desire to participate in PvP ...ever.
The only thing this has done is focus the entire game on becoming a Jedi. Thousands of players on each server will be giving up necessary gameskills to become a Jedi, get into the tree only to be constantly hunted by peoplethey have no interest in fighting so that, by design,they will get so frustrated that most of them will give up Jedi. And once they do, what will they do? Go "Well that was not as fun as I hoped. I think I will grind out more XP and regain skills I had before so that I cannot compete against those who actually hold out and get to the top of the Jedi tree." No...what will happen is that those people will quit as will all those who come to realise that their dream of becoming a Jedi is unachievable before they get to that point.
This is only going to kill the game so even if the design of the BH profession is to limit the Jedi population, forgive me if do not buy into the benefit you seem to see the profession provides to the game.
That aside however, how is the fact that they can "massacre multiple non-FS toons at will by reaching the higher levels" have any validity? I am a Master Rifleman/Master Doc. I have no problem massacring multiple non-FS toons at will. There are almost no tunes in the entire game that I am not willing to take on solo. The only ones I can think of right now are the NS Spellweavers, Protectors, and Stalkers (because they are 100% resistant to all damage I can do) and the largest of the Krayt dragons, and the latter is mainly because I am too lazy to do so and do not want to have to try to outdamge the group that shows up when I am less than halfway done and steals the kill from me. The same could be said from most Master of any Elite combat profession.
You miss the point about people's lives. If someone voluntarily participates in PvP, there is no conflict. And bases have one point and one point alone, and that is to invite PvP. You can hardly make a comparison between that and destroying someone's AV-21. I know of no vehicle in the game that is an invitation for PvP.
On a related (but slightly more bitter) point, I am also paying good money to have fun, and asa pure ranged character, that fun is pretty darn short-lived if I run into a high-level Jedi of the opposing faction. I don't claim that the Jedi is griefing me just by existing, but it sure feels that way when you spend ages getting buffs, ent buffs, eat your food/drink, travel to an opposition base, and then get wiped out in ten seconds by a Jedi that you can't realistically damage
If I believed that Jedi belonged in the game at all, I would probably argue that there should be professions that you cannot easily fight, but also professions that cannot easily defeat you. I would argue that this is a balance issue,and can be corrected. I, too, as a purely ranged character will not fight Jedi. It is pointless. But there are professions that can fight them, professions which, if I play my game correctly, have an extremely difficult time fighting me.
In any case, there's nothing to be done about it. I can't think of a way where FD could be restricted in these circumstances, without nerfing smuggler. I like sliced things, so I certainly wouldn't want to do that
Smuggler needs to be fixed.They need to be more viable than they are and have content (i.e., they should be able to smuggle). Until they do make it a more viable profession or give it more content, maybe FD should be left alone. But FD needs to be fixed. While it is not a "get out of jail free" card, it is too close to one for many of the reasons you state and should be altered some.
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rgrocott wrote:
This isa reply to those above discussing ways in which the use of FD could terminate BH missions on the Jedi, whether you alter the penalties or not.
I would have suggested this in my original post. It occurred to me, but when you think about implementing any system along these lines, you quickly realise that it isn't viable. There is no realistic way to implement this without creating a situation where either the BH or the Jedi gets screwed. Or both.
A Jedi appears on the terms while grinding on Dath. BH checks the terms, picks up the mission. Maybe the BH thinks "Great, I love fighting this guy, I'll probably get creamed but I've got a few tricks I wanna try out". Or maybe the BH thinks "Time to get my team together", and calls in his support squad from various parts of the universe. BH (and friends) head off to get buffs, and travel to Dath. Meanwhile, our grinding Jedi miscalculates his buff timers, and all of a sudden that rancor isn't looking so cuddly. "Damn, I'd better Feign Death or I'm toast here".
Oops, FD triggers the end of the mission. In one scenario, the Jedi is penalised for losing a fight they were probably going to win, and in the other scenario, a whole bunch of players get shafted, and have wasted a fair amount of time and money. Also, the immersion takes a huge hit.
I don't believe there is currently a way to determine, via programming logic, what the situation is. Justbasing it on"is the Jedi in combat with the BH" won't work, I think a /peace /FD macro would defeat that. If anyone can suggest a set of criteria which can be encoded and would never require 'judgement calls', I'd love to hear them
You know, if it were not for repeated failures in getting the bugs worked out of the current sytem, I might have some suggestions to offer up. However, given the failings of the TEF system, as well as the player bounty system, any attempt to make use of these things in concert to solve this problem, seems almost doomed to failure from the start. Why did you have to go a bring up reality?
Alrighty then.... I may have one solution. One that tosses the notion of mission completiontriggered by FD.Grant a counter skill to bounty hunters as part of the investigations skill tree. A "detect feign death" skill, with modifiers increasing as skill raises, to a level where a master BH has a 50/50 chance of detecting a master Smuggler faking it. There you have it. BH's should be the natural enemy of the smuggler, so this even makes sense from a roleplaying perspective. I still feel there should be some sort of delay timer involved, to prevent some of the other, non Jedi issues that have been discussed.This is starting to sound like a discussion for the BH boards, so I'll leave it at that.
Message Edited by Tyyylowyspetily on 10-01-2004 06:40 PM
Alrighty then.... I may have one solution. One that tosses the notion of mission completiontriggered by FD.Grant a counter skill to bounty hunters as part of the investigations skill tree. A "detect feign death" skill, with modifiers increasing as skill raises, to a level where a master BH has a 50/50 chance of detecting a master Smuggler faking it. There you have it. BH's should be the natural enemy of the smuggler, so this even makes sense from a roleplaying perspective. I still feel there should be some sort of delay timer involved, to prevent some of the other, non Jedi issues that have been discussed.This is starting to sound like a discussion for the BH boards, so I'll leave it at that.
This is an interesting option except for one thing, since a live player ALWAYS knows when the FD player is FDed, this system only serves as a vehicle to break FD itself and 1.2 million XP is wasted as the BH and Smuggler (Or whatever has the FD line) are in a fight and the smuggler FDs, the BH ALWAYS knows that this happened as the BH did not do /deathblow so they know, and in knowing they also know it is time to "detect FD" skill which the BH will get to use 100% of the time and even if it is a 50/50 shot at detecting it will be used 100% of the time someone FDs so statistically it is in fact higher then 50/50, so now FD which 1.2 million XP was invested will be tested 100% of the time it is used in PvP as FD only fools in the sense of the flow of combat not the perception of the player and since the victoruous player must use /deathblow to kill a player they will absolutly always know that FD was used on them and will know absolutly 100% of the time it is used against them to try that 50/50 shot at breaking what they already are positive was done. The skill is under disguise as a "Detecttion" skill but is in reality a break skill meant only to counter the other skill, which as the system stands now limits smugglers very much in PvP most of all as it is core to thier profession.
Putting the failure chance on the FD skill results in the same thing save one difference the BH or other opponent doesnt have to waste thier time to "Break FD", sorry "Detect FD" they can just go in for the kill, that is it.
Ending combat with FD forces a stalemate, you dont like it, alot of folks dont seem to like it but if combat ends on FD it does in fact eliminate griefing.
Dotting and FD, well that would end combat and you could heal the dots without fear of getting whacked while doing it and all they got a potshot that will rarely be fatal (Your a bad PvPer if you cant heal a dot while not in combat).
BH hunting a Jedi with FD, has to restart the mission on FD, and both parties lose a small amount of time and cash as opposed to the waiting game I hear some do. Tell me where I am wrong in clearing TEFs and wiping the mission but not the visability (The mission is still on the terms and can be reaquired). Where can legitimate griefing be done? Is it annoying to track em down they FD and you have to get the mission again? Yep you bet, but there is no griefing, no black baring, no killing vehicles, armor, etc and wasting time in the process of coming up with these creative grief tactics. I may not have all bases covered but it seems to me to address all the issues around FD and how annoyed folks deal with it (Usually immaturely from the posts I have seen).
I dont claim it to be full proof but the one thing it does do is change only the part of FD that is beyond annoying, the spiteful parts, like dot and FD, black barring, destroying vehicles and such, these are beyond annoying. Tracking a Jedi who can FD is annoying but not griefing doing those thing I mentioned in response is. I know the expense and time in hunting Jedi, but you could easily not hunt em and never get annoyed by it, you have that choice. The Jedi has to accept PvP as a means within the profession, the BH it is an option so you put yourself into that mess, the Jedi did not ask for you to hunt them, you did that, if they can FD that is valid any means of breaking it invalidates the skill because you as the attacker knows 100% if they are FDing or not so any means to break will be used 100% of the time FD is used and realistically that is unfair, FD is Feign Death, that means they fake their death in an RPG sense unless your truly a psychopath most folks wouldnt "slice up a body to be sure" or "give a few more shots to the head to make sure" that is double talk meant to justify breaking the skill, so that means you shoot, swing a fist or blade, your opponent drops you check his vitals he seems dead, you leave. When FDed that person appears dead, the skill works in an RPG sense but from the player prespective you know he isnt cause you did not /deathblow I know I sound like a broken record but unless you could make it so you seem to DB them FD cannot work as a variable skill, it just doesnt work.
I am surprised it is usable in PvP on EQ a monk can use it, but it doesnt ever work, the opponent can just beat on the monk till he monk fights back again, I like that you can use FD as a tactic in this game particularly since there are multiple ways that this so called "Consent based PvP" isnt consent based it is consent/action based (Not advertised as such btw).
Everything in this game has at least one defense or counter and in most cases its multiple. FD has nothing of the sorts.
Slarus wrote:
Alrighty then.... I may have one solution. One that tosses the notion of mission completiontriggered by FD.Grant a counter skill to bounty hunters as part of the investigations skill tree. A "detect feign death" skill, with modifiers increasing as skill raises, to a level where a master BH has a 50/50 chance of detecting a master Smuggler faking it. There you have it. BH's should be the natural enemy of the smuggler, so this even makes sense from a roleplaying perspective. I still feel there should be some sort of delay timer involved, to prevent some of the other, non Jedi issues that have been discussed.This is starting to sound like a discussion for the BH boards, so I'll leave it at that.
Putting the failure chance on the FD skill results in the same thing save one difference the BH or other opponent doesnt have to waste thier time to "Break FD", sorry "Detect FD" they can just go in for the kill, that is it. Agree. Put a timer on it and a random chance to fail decreasing the fail percentage as you level up smuggler.
Ending combat with FD forces a stalemate, you dont like it, alot of folks dont seem to like it but if combat ends on FD it does in fact eliminate griefing. Actually it accomplishes nothing. Its a stalemate which turns into a waiting game or the FD'ed person logs. The discussion is about FD not TEF clearing which was supposed to have been fixed this patch.
Dotting and FD, well that would end combat and you could heal the dots without fear of getting whacked while doing it and all they got a potshot that will rarely be fatal (Your a bad PvPer if you cant heal a dot while not in combat). DoT's aren't players and shouldn't be affected by FD. If you're faking it and you got ebola the ebola isn't going to go away. Making DoT's break FD is a great idea however you shouldn't be able to apply them to someone who has already initiated FD.
BH hunting a Jedi with FD, has to restart the mission on FD, and both parties lose a small amount of time and cash as opposed to the waiting game I hear some do. Tell me where I am wrong in clearing TEFs and wiping the mission but not the visability (The mission is still on the terms and can be reaquired). Where can legitimate griefing be done? Is it annoying to track em down they FD and you have to get the mission again? Yep you bet, but there is no griefing, no black baring, no killing vehicles, armor, etc and wasting time in the process of coming up with these creative grief tactics. I may not have all bases covered but it seems to me to address all the issues around FD and how annoyed folks deal with it (Usually immaturely from the posts I have seen). Actually no. FD wiping the visibility and mission would be way too easy. As soon as they Jedi gets the notification that they're being hunted they just have to keep FD'ing until the mission is wiped. Once a mission is taken it is either pass or fail and is not reinstated on the boards. A Jedi can be multiple missions on the boards from multiple instances where the visibility rolled against them. There wouldn't be griefing either if there was a clean kill involved whether a Jedi or just a regular template. Not all people who FD are Jedi and once Jedi get high enough they can wipe the full with a BH and never need FD again.
I dont claim it to be full proof but the one thing it does do is change only the part of FD that is beyond annoying, the spiteful parts, like dot and FD, black barring, destroying vehicles and such, these are beyond annoying. Tracking a Jedi who can FD is annoying but not griefing doing those thing I mentioned in response is. I know the expense and time in hunting Jedi, but you could easily not hunt em and never get annoyed by it, you have that choice. The Jedi has to accept PvP as a means within the profession, the BH it is an option so you put yourself into that mess, the Jedi did not ask for you to hunt them, you did that, if they can FD that is valid any means of breaking it invalidates the skill because you as the attacker knows 100% if they are FDing or not so any means to break will be used 100% of the time FD is used and realistically that is unfair, FD is Feign Death, that means they fake their death in an RPG sense unless your truly a psychopath most folks wouldnt "slice up a body to be sure" or "give a few more shots to the head to make sure" that is double talk meant to justify breaking the skill, so that means you shoot, swing a fist or blade, your opponent drops you check his vitals he seems dead, you leave. When FDed that person appears dead, the skill works in an RPG sense but from the player prespective you know he isnt cause you did not /deathblow I know I sound like a broken record but unless you could make it so you seem to DB them FD cannot work as a variable skill, it just doesnt work. This is a Jedi whine. Please take it to the BH boards or the Jedi boards. You knew the second you became a padawan that you are now attackable by BH. Its part of your life as a Jedi. The world doesn't revolve around Jedi either. The FD situation is used in excess during regular PvP situation all too often. Its used as almost an exploit in base defense and destruction. It's used as a cheap way to dodge a fight against an overt person when they are overt which is voluntary. It is unbreakable, there is no defense against it anywhere in the game.
I am surprised it is usable in PvP on EQ a monk can use it, but it doesnt ever work, the opponent can just beat on the monk till he monk fights back again, I like that you can use FD as a tactic in this game particularly since there are multiple ways that this so called "Consent based PvP" isnt consent based it is consent/action based (Not advertised as such btw). You consent to PvP when you get go overt, when you risk a TEF, or when you become a Jedi. Its all stated in black and white in the manuel and what the dev's have posted. If you can't hack the grind to your master Jedi template then delete your Jedi now. When you do finish your template there is a pretty good chance that a BH is going to need a decent gank squad to cut through your groupies and still be able to kill you. But you wont be complaining as you wipe up single BH's with ease now will you?