Rifleman Archive

It seems we have two sides to this.

The side that says pistols suck, and the side that says we have to group.

Im sorry, but Pistol Knockdown has to be nerfed. I dont have the exact log, but i was heavily involved in PvP last night for about 10mins and it went a little something like this.

There i am, a rifleman (1,1,1,0) sitting on top of the hill, 55m out, a good position.

And there he goes -an Imperial Pistoleer - i have in my sights and bam i get him with HS2 - 330 points of dam (the reason for HS and not MS is he only had 700 mind, not worth the shot of MS)

He wonders what hits him, and sees me, he shoots, im knockdown, but how is that possible, i was prone and already on the ground, but none the less, there i am, i cant move, and bam, bam, bam, 3 hits in a row for about 100 each, all the time getting closer to me.

I was thinking, this isnt so bad, i can heal that when i get up and hit him again with HS2, but wait bam, pistolwhip, im down again and cant move, bam, bam, bam, geez im getting close now, this is getting hairy.

This time, beofre i get up, bam, pistolwhip - at this point i decided to get a coffee cause i knew i was going to be waking up in the cloning centre.

So for those of you that say, get in a group, shut your cake holes!! I usually group, but this day my crew wasnt there, and seeing as im one of the covert rebels i have no choice but to engage.

Is it balance, that after he fires, one shot, i am no longer able to defend myself?

Is it balabed that he fires pistol whip and i get knockdown even thouhg i am prone? (im not even gonna talk about the range)

Is it balances that he is able to constantly pistol whip me so every time it get close to standing up he can simply knock me down again?

It just simply isnt balanced enough, i was at the ideal range, yet i cant get 2 shots in, which is all it would need when they have 700 mind!!!!

The fire quicker (no problem with that - they are pistols)

They fire with better accuracy over any distnace be they running or kneeling (have a huge problem with that)

They can knock us down contoniously so we cant fire back (this is a huge imbalance in the game no matter how good you are or what profession you are)

Im sorry but i have to agree with TeK again, and it doesnt matter, if you are in a group situation or not, at the end of the day, no matter how many you have your group you are still going at it one on one, if you engage someone!!!

...he cant have used pistolwhip at 55 m range it only has a 7m range. if he knocked you down from far away he was either a master pistoleer or a pistoleer / smuggler hybrid. either way he has WAY more pistol experience (4/4/4/4 with masterpistoleer or some points in pistoleer and 0/0/3/0 in smuggler) that the battle will be about 99% of timesin his favour vs. you.

another thing that is noteworthy is you cant say how high the guy you fight is in his chosen profession cause most people turn of their titles or show some fake like novice marksman hoping that someone is stupid enough to attack them so dont make any assumptions on it unless you are 100% certain.

PS: this thread is a joke - several people including me pointed out all over the thread that pistolwhip has 7 m range and still i read "i got owned at range with pistolwhip" .............

Hehe, Sel, that's not what he said. The pistol whip came later. The first knockdown was just a regular ranged knockdown.

Look, this is simple. Knockdown is still too powerful. They were going to fix it and they just plain didn't. Higher HAM costs don't mean jack when all it takes is one knockdown to win a fight.

I will say, though, that this guy SHOULD have opened with mindshot, then backed off out of max range, waited for a bleed to hit and his gun's timer to recharge, then moved back into range, popped him with a HS, then moved out again. This works very well. There's still a good chance he would have been knocked down, though. Though there's also a chance the bleed would have incapped his target before he could get DBd.

I don't think the answer is to give us knockdown (although if any ranged class should have it, it's us - duh) because knockdown is just so **edit** cheap. I don't want it. I'll say it again - what we need is a knockdown counter.

I do not know of another game that does not put timers on crowd-control moves. Making them more HAM-expensive is not good enough.

Riflepersons need more of an advantage at range, at least Aldeon recognises that and is asking for it. I believe Riflepersons need a better crowd-control move themselves to try and keep players at range. A Flurryshot/Suppression fire isn't good enough (2 different moves). Riflepersons have the weakest defence and poorest accuracy at short range, we need crowd control abilities more than other ranged types yet ours is the weakest. Doesn't make any logical sense.

Knockdown should not affect prone players. And I agree with Tek, I would happily swap the AoE attack for cover/conceal that worked against players, or provided some significantly increased ranged defence (and it seems to me ranged defence skills are not effective enough overall)

SW:G lacks balance in a number of ways. The devs should go back to the drawing boards and critically evaluate each professions strengths and weaknesses (which should really have happened during a longer beta). Pistoleers/BH's have the melee defence, the damage rate and the single-shot crowd-control moves. Where are their weaknesses?

Still say knockdown is not powerfull against us? Get a load of this....

Im in the medic facility, when a friend of mine comes in that needs healing, we start talking and he says this other imp is following him and that hes killed the guy 3 times already and he still wont leave him alone, I laugh, well later on, he tells me this guy is a MASTER Sharpshooter, I said, WHOA, you killed a master sharpshooter 3 times? hes said yea, why? im just like, wow. My friend is a novice BH. well, a little longer and who shows up? the Master Sharpshooter, He engagges my friend with Mind meld, is a MISS, My friend shoots back, its a MISS, my friend shoots him agian for 300 dmg, the sharpshooter shoots, hits him for I think 200 dmg, my friend then knocks him down, and continues to DRILL this master sharpshooter to incap. The sharpshooter could not get up the rest of the fight until he was in the cloning center... how is that fair?!?!

even if he had hit my friend with mind meld, as fast as my friend shot him, he still would have been DB before his mind went to 0. Soemthing needs to be done to counter knockdown.

You seem to have trouble understanding the fact that 1vs1, dueling, will never be balanced. Can't you people get it through your head that some professions will crush others in duels? Not one person has come on this board with a legit beef with what a Rifleman can do in faction vs faction fighting.

Tookra that is great that you think you should at novice have some hope of PvP'n, but you know what? you are playing the wrong class if you want toduel at novice, plain and simple. I dont know how many other ways it has to be explained. Rifleman does not come into its prime tell Master, and even then it is NOT a class built for dueling.

I understand you rookies have trouble seperating dueling and PvP, but there is a big diffrence. If anyone has played DAoC it would be like a healer crying that they cant kill a zerker in a duel and then saying healers suck because of it. Duels mean nothing, and only partially shows the strengths of a profession.

The basic problem is people wants the class to fit their personal playing style, what THEY want in a profession. Maybe, just maybe, if you had the same passion for leveling as you do in whinning about the class you would realize Rifleman fits its roll nicely.

First off I'd like to thank Aldeon for being a great corespondant. You've put up with quite a lot of sheet for very little reward. EVERY advanced profession has some problems with it (even my doctor proffession) so I'm glad you're here keeping an eye on this one. (I'll make Novice Rifleman soon I hope!)

Next, the problem I see is that both Tech and Aldeon are suffering from the most basic problem in an argument.

They're both right.

Now I'm not saying they're both COMPLETLY right either. Neither side has been exactly "professional" in their responses or their arguments, but they both have valid points.

Tek is only saying that we need a counter to knockdown, ANY knockdown. It makes no sense for us to be kicked onto our butt while on our bellies. There is also that the stupid idea that a pistol has excellent accuracy at any range. (I love your sigs BTW, very true) Finally he brings up the point that an advanced person should always beat a less advanced person.

Though Aldeon's points are equally valid. Not every proffession advances atthe same rate, or at the same "effectivness." Basically not all 1/1/1/1 are the same. A change in tactics and ideas are also valid points to made thanks to this change in PvP. Bringing up valid "new tactics" isn't something to be ignored, and learning to change your tactics is the key to survival in any fighting situation.

Figuring out where you're both right and where you're both wrong will go a LONG way to clearing things up. Remember, we're all riflemen here, we ALL want to make our profession as good as it should be.

TookrakLarrin here is an example of why you could be wrong in some peoples eyes. In EQ if a Shaman hit a warrior with Malo then a Turgur then loaded on the DoT's the only thing he had to do was stay away and Occaisonally heal themselves. Another Example Have that same warrior try to solo a Gaint in the Bastion of Thunder or the Wato looking guys up in the upper court yard and you would find one Dead warrior pretty quick. Take the same Shaman and Fight the same mobs and it was great AA Exp per kill. As someone else stated earlier in PvP and in PvE Certain classes need to group, certain ones can solo all the time if they want and certain ones will own others in PvP. Now it all changes IF the after Malo/Malos you go to slow and it somehow is resisted then it becomes a bit more of a challenge. Or if the warrior happens to catch the Shaman sitting down medding and stuns and thehn goes into a barrage of attacks interuppting all the other casts he trys. So is knock down to strong nah..if it can be used outside of the 7 m range then that definately needs to be fixed but if there is a ranged version thats just bad luck for you. Kinda like getting surprised on yer butt or missing that all important head shot right off the bat. Another thing that I do not understand about knockdown..can it fail like a head shot?

Took, in your example:

It seems we have two sides to this.

The side that says pistols suck, and the side that says we have to group.

Im sorry, but Pistol Knockdown has to be nerfed. I dont have the exact log, but i was heavily involved in PvP last night for about 10mins and it went a little something like this.

There i am, a rifleman (1,1,1,0) sitting on top of the hill, 55m out, a good position.

And there he goes -an Imperial Pistoleer - i have in my sights and bam i get him with HS2 - 330 points of dam (the reason for HS and not MS is he only had 700 mind, not worth the shot of MS)

He wonders what hits him, and sees me, he shoots, im knockdown, but how is that possible, i was prone and already on the ground, but none the less, there i am, i cant move, and bam, bam, bam, 3 hits in a row for about 100 each, all the time getting closer to me.

I was thinking, this isnt so bad, i can heal that when i get up and hit him again with HS2, but wait bam, pistolwhip, im down again and cant move, bam, bam, bam, geez im getting close now, this is getting hairy.

This time, beofre i get up, bam, pistolwhip - at this point i decided to get a coffee cause i knew i was going to be waking up in the cloning centre.

So for those of you that say, get in a group, shut your cake holes!! I usually group, but this day my crew wasnt there, and seeing as im one of the covert rebels i have no choice but to engage.

Is it balance, that after he fires, one shot, i am no longer able to defend myself?

Is it balabed that he fires pistol whip and i get knockdown even thouhg i am prone? (im not even gonna talk about the range)

Is it balances that he is able to constantly pistol whip me so every time it get close to standing up he can simply knock me down again?

It just simply isnt balanced enough, i was at the ideal range, yet i cant get 2 shots in, which is all it would need when they have 700 mind!!!!

The fire quicker (no problem with that - they are pistols)

They fire with better accuracy over any distnace be they running or kneeling (have a huge problem with that)

They can knock us down contoniously so we cant fire back (this is a huge imbalance in the game no matter how good you are or what profession you are)

Im sorry but i have to agree with TeK again, and it doesnt matter, if you are in a group situation or not, at the end of the day, no matter how many you have your group you are still going at it one on one, if you engage someone!!!

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If you would have used mindshot 2, He would have been killed before he had time to DB you. I fired around 7-8 shots, while getting closer to you, giving you time to get 2-3 ticks in = dead opponent.

Rifleman will not own in pvp just by using HS. We have by far the best DoT in game right now. I use it often, and ends up winning a lot more fight than I lose, and I'm not a master rifleman.

SilverLobo

Im amazed at what you are saying!! I truley am!!

I'm not saying that i expect to be able to have a chance against someone that is waymore advanced than me. Im all for someone that is more advanced than me having the ability to kill. Its the way it should be.

However, i should be able to stand a chance against anyone that is equal or there abouts to where i am. As it stands at the moment, i get just about owned by every other profession, with exception of commando and the crafting skills, regardless of how advanced they are.

I hear what both you and Aldeon are saying, when you become Master Rifleamn you own, well its sometime between now and then before i come a Master Rifleman!!

So what would you have me do? Not get involved in PvP?

There in lies the problem. This game, as the devs have constantly told us, that regardless if you are a hardcore player or a casual player you will be able to get involved!! And this is true for most skills, with excpetion of, according to you, the Rifleman!

Let me say it again, nice and simple so that you understand.

As it stands Rifleman, unless they are Master, are no good at PvP,

WHICH IS THE PROBLEM. IT IS THE ONLY PROFESSION YOU HAVE TO MASTER TO BE VIABLE IN A PVP SENSE.

Im not asking for the ability to take down a master pistoleer, i wouldnt expect to get close,( well not until im a Master anyways) but i also would not expect a novice pistoleer to own me if not high enough to be master rifleman. As it stands i simply do not stand a chance against of a basic pistoleer that has pistolwhip!!!!!!

Its a simple as that !!!I could be 3/3/3/3 as a Rifleman, pretty well advanced, but as it currently stands, i can lose to a pistoleer that is 0/0/1/0. ITS JUST NOT RIGHT, regardless of what you say about waiting to become a Master Rifleman.

As it stands, knockdown is extremly overkill.

What i would like to see is one of two things

eithere

A - if you are prone, you cant be knockdown (seems sensible to me, you are already lieing down)

B - I have to no problem with a pistoleer having a knockdown skill, but it should only be made avaialbe to them when they have mastered that skill, the same for us, we are only truly great when we have mastered, so why should they be better/worse than us at the same level. We should stand a chance at least!!!

And another thing, im not whining, but what you seem to blatanly miss, is the fact that as a Master Rifleman in training, it is a considerably harder to do just about everything, do i want this changed, well no, it gives more of a sense of achiement when i finally get there. What i do want is to be able to PvP!!!

I shouldnt have to take another combat skill, to be viable!!

I shouldnt have to take Swords to stand a chance!!

I should be able to use the skills that i have and have a 50/50 chance of success, then and only then it comes down to tactics.

(Against someone of similair standing)

As it stands, there is no tactics involved, its first knockdown wins and WE DONT HAVE A KNOCKDOWN UNTIL WE ARE MASTER

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ummmm, we have knockdown at 0/0/0/1...its called suppression fire + flurry shot. As our spraysticks fires faster than a pistol, we get it done in 1 seconds...build a macro, use it, then rake in the DB'S

Riflemen is not the only profession that you have to be a Master to PvP in. Try playing a melee where you have to become a Master Brawler and a Master of your elite profession before you can even dream of competing with the ranged players. There are no professions that are inherently effective on the battlefield from a low level and they'll all get chewed up by masters of other professions (with the exception of Bounty Hunter which is 2 elite professions to make up for its prerequisites).

There are some elite professions that are just inherently better combat classes. Bounty Hunter is a good example because it's the only elite profession a player can master if they take that route. Still even then as just a Rifleman you can hold your own but remember that you can master 2 elite professions so if you're a Master Riflemen you've still only reached half your potential.

You wont have to take another combat skill to be viable but to compete head to head with other players that have taken the full combat route you will need too. If someone is a Master Bounty Hunter or Pistoleer/Carbineer don't expect to be able to beat them 50/50.

The game is extremly tactical when you get past one on one fighting. Flurry Shot with Suppression/Startle are not elite skills but still make an excelent knock down attacks (as mentioned above). Knockdowns take large amounts of HAM and after 3 or 4 they're very weak. In a good group we usually have some type of reserves to kill people that use excessive knockdowns, picking off a guy with my rifle that just knocked down 2 of my teamates in one or two hits is always fun. Coverts also make excelent reserves.