Rifleman Archive
Thread: The range mod posts in Corre Forums
Im trying to test with him to show that pistoleers shoot accurate at all ranges. Until he sees this, he will never come to agree with me on any facts, and we will not get anywhere.
Once again, the problem doesnt lay withing mods, its within the styles itself.
AldeonAvardulin wrote:
No nerfing pistoleers will help us. Why give us accuracy at short range? Are you trying to make us just a slow pistoleer? We want what was said in our description, Masters Of Long Range. How many times do I have to say this, we want to be masters of long range. I will take your speed nerf as long as I am a master of long range.
We didnt pick this class to be slow pistoleers, we picked it becuase we wanted to be the sniper, the guy at logn range. The guy with a rifleman a thousand yards out hitting you in the head.
Yes, well I was going to be a Rifleman too, until I came to a realization:
I can't have that.
The fundamental design of the game limits all engagements to 64 meters. 64 meters, as I'm sure you've discovered, is insignificant compared to the trip to the engagement, and the time it takes your target to run 64 meters is insignificant compared to the time you'll spend in the med center after your clone pops back up.
Why did I choose Pistoleer over Rifleman? Because I want to fire on the move. Because I want to have some effect, maybe not as much asa Rifleman or Carbineer, at all ranges.
What advantages should a Rifleman have? Better stopping power, thanks to the rifle's heavier damage and slow recycle time. Better called shots to the mind pool, and better state effects thanks to the rifle's improved precision. One-shot kills? Fine. Take them. Personally, I think we should all get a one-shot now and then, because that's what the genre was like, and deathcarries such a small penalty in the game.
What advantages should a Carbineer have? Better covering fire, thanks to the carbine's higher rate of fire. Better area damage, thanks to the carbine's improved handling.
What disadvantage should a Rifleman *not* have? The inability to hit a bantha at short range, and the nonsensical melee damage multiplier. What could possibly justify this, anyway?
What disadvantage should a Pistoleer *not* have? A reduction in engagement range. Do I think our long-range accuracy is a bit much? Yes,but we should still be able to *try* the shot, even if there's a good chance we'll miss.
I'm not even going to touch Bounty Hunters here, because the balance arguments there go way beyond any of the discussions we've had, except to say that I'm sick of people who say I play in god mode because they got Eye-Shotted by a Bounty Hunter.
-c.
AldeonAvardulin wrote:
Limiting style range was only one solution, wich I feel was the best. Im prefectly fine with decreasing accuracy bonuses to pistols styles so that they are onyl accurate near there Ideal range like us.
Dear lord, this might be the start of a compromise. 
I'd like to hear what Jaegen thinks of it, but I'm all for an averaging of our "out of band" range penalties.
And yes, I do know how crappy short-range work with a rifle is -- I'm going for Master Marksman, and I am nothing but annoyed every time I use my rifle. Pistol work has moments of joy and frustration, but at least it's entertaining to play the game. Using a rifle is just painful.
-c.
Iodan wrote:
Jaegen: Get on Test, use the correspondent terminal, get to master, test with Aldeon. Try and see Aldeon's point.
Aldeon: Get on Test, use the correspondent terminal, get to master, test with Jaegen. Try and see Jaegen's point.
The problem is, I am the only one who wants to test this. I have offered so many times, and Jaegen has ignored me everytime.
AldeonAvardulin wrote:
Iodan wrote:Jaegen: Get on Test, use the correspondent terminal, get to master, test with Aldeon. Try and see Aldeon's point.
Aldeon: Get on Test, use the correspondent terminal, get to master, test with Jaegen. Try and see Jaegen's point.
The problem is, I am the only one who wants to test this. I have offered so many times, and Jaegen has ignored me everytime.
I'm not totally convinced riflemen specials have smaller accuracy bonus. I'll try to test this tonight, but I know that doubletap/stopping shot/fanshot/bodyshot1/bodyshot2 all have +50 accuracy mod (kip-up has +40 or +45). Do you have experimental data showing riflemen specials having smaller bonuses?
When reading this thread, I had to check to make sure I was in the Rifleman forum and not the Pistoleer forum.
Some general thoughts:
1) I LOATHE, with the blinding, burning, passionate intensity of a thousand million suns, the idea that nerfs are bad in every possible case, and should never ever be used under any circumstance.
I am not saying that all nerfs are good. I am, however, saying that all nerfs are not bad just because they're nerfs. Some things need to be nerfed.
2) Pistoleer accuracy at range may be one of those things.
3) I actually do not necessarily have a problem with a 3 second minimum fire rate, as long as it comes included with (A) increased shot damage; (B) removal of the 2.5x melee penalty; and (C) Spraysticks are not affected.
4) The idea of "combo" special moves is retarded, and as it favors faster shooters over slower ones, it will be a backhanded nerf to the Rifleman class. Under the best of all possible situations with the proposed 3.0 second minimum fire rate, a Rifleman will take 18 seconds to pull off a 6-move combo, and 24 seconds to pull off an 8-move combo.
I don't know many critters that a Master Rifleman will find worth fighting that will stand there complacently at range for 18-24 seconds waiting for us to get off our l33t combo move. I certainly don't know any players who will be willing to do that in PvP.
Oh, and if you're not a Master Rifleman with Master Marksman thrown in, the combo will take even longer to pull off.
5) To the Pistoleer Correspondent, some specific remarks:
You have cover, pistoleers have..nothing like that
We have a skill called "Take Cover" which (A) fails more often than not; and (B) doesn't provide us with any defensive bonus whatsoever when it does manage to work. The chief use of "Take Cover" in the current game is to let us use Conceal Shot. Realistically, it has no other use.
You have DB at range, pistoleers have...nothing like that
Serves no purpose outside of PvP. Absolutely useless for PvE. Of limited utility within PvP. The hard part about PvP is incapping other players.
You have faster crawl speed, pistoleers have nothing like that.
Also a broken skill, like "Take Cover" above. It does not work as advertised.
Elanoic wrote:
A 32m radius circle covers 3,200 square meters.
A 64m radius circle covers 12,800 square meters.
Are you suggesting that your specials should apply to targets in an area which is four times the size of our effective area?
Actually, the area would be 12,800 - 3,200 = 9,600 square meters, because inside 32m for a rifle the accuracy would drop through the floor. So what you have is a band around the rifleman, not a complete circle.
That said, yes, our area to hit is larger by nature of the range we hit at. Can that really be helped? I can't see how. Is he suggesting an unfair mod? NO! He's saying inside 32m, pistol specials get higher accuracy, rifle specials do not (or can't be used). Outside 32m it's vise versa. Besides, you're assuming we're attacking all possible targets at once. This is a comparison of two people firing at one target, areas of attack don't apply, it's just a straight line to the target.
Ald - why on earth do you keep calling for someone else to do your testing for you?
Its your arguement - its your point to prove - so why is it hard to grasp that you should do the friggin tests?
You're a master rifleman right? So take a few of your rifles off the shelf and do a series of pvp accuracy tests against a stationary opponent and a moving on at say 5m, 50m (or whatever optimal is for the rifle) and 64m. Post the results for 100+ shots in each category along with all of your relevant skill mods and the weapons accuracy ratings. Do one series with autofire and one with the same special at each range. (Heck maybe even do a bunch of them to figure out the +acc mod for each special - we did)
Then, finally you might have some intelligent points to make.
You want to be master of long range ? Well, you could up the rifle max range (for example 84 while kneeled and96 while prone), or alternatively, suggest for pistols max range penalties to be tripled. That way, they might possibly hit you, but then, luck can happen, without being an unpleasant hardcoded "you can't do that"
Of course, since you don't want people to believe you're just whining for a way to kite helpless people (you wouldn't want to be able to fire unstyled while running backwards with no risk of retribution, would you ?Yeah, I thought so, wouldn'tbe very sniperish either...), you will probably suggest that Riflemen's "on the move" accuracy penalty be tripled as well, or suggest that riflemen moving speed be reduced (like for 5s after using a rifle, so that macro don't get around that)...
Gray,
He wants to test WITH Jaegen, not to have Jaegen do the tests for him. That would be far more productive in the long run as the tests would have both points of view.