Rifleman Archive
Thread: The range mod posts in Corre Forums
Philosopher...
Aldeon is saying that you are masters of both short and long range. Riflemen suck at short range. Even your supporter Elanoic even said that Riflemen should be better at long range. How do you propose we fix that? You can take any possible solution to that problem and call it a "nerf" to pistols. So we are in a no-win situation. I would think the best solution is to make pistol accuracy at long range suck as bad as rifle accuracy at short range. Is that not fair? Would you then scream that we are calling for a "nerf" to pistols? (Notice I am not saying "no pistol specials"... I think that would be a little much.)
Look at what happens if we try tokite today: Our accuracy plummets while running. If we're kiting you, we are shooting back at you with terrible accuracy while you are firing specials at us with much higher accuracy. So it would seem like lowering your accuracy past 35-40m would be a leveler.
And keep in mind that kiting implies some amount of time to complete.It doesn't address the fact that you can spam your specials much longer than we can before our unhealable mind dies.
Just to clarify:
"The speed thing won't change that very much, because their power is based on mindshot2 and the unhealablity of mind damage, not speed. They hit me once with mindshot2 and I'm dead. But maybe lower speed hurts them, I'll take your word for it."
Mindshot 2 is a bleed attack, so I am assuming you mean HS2. Headshot 2 or 3 may kill someone in 1 shot, but even with a T21 that is usually not the case.
I think most Master Riflemen use StrafeShot2, which is random pool damage. The Mind damage thing for riflemen is pretty over-rated. Riflemen, have 4 attacks that go to mind, two of which are Marksman Specials one of which (HS3) is about silly since you are doing so much damage to yourself for no increased damage output.
I suggest that anyone who has not tried rifles through novice Rifleman give that a go before suggesting that speedcaps are ok. Master Marksman Rifle hunting is not anything like ginding through the rifleman tree. The best damage/delay/HAM weapon you can get will fire about once every 3 seconds & you would still have Mindshot1 & HS2. You can get an idea of the pain we are afraid of. I have some pistoleer right now & it is so much more forgiving in combat.
Take a look below, most of the Rifleman Tree is based around random HAM, Area Fire Support. The Sniping line and cover line are questionable, with the exception of SniperShot.
StrafeShot1 = Single Target, Random Pool, removes cover
Mindshot2 = Single Target Mind Bleed. I can see how this would get annoying in PvP. But really, the Rifleman is most likely to get incapped & then the target will bleed out.. If the rifleman isnt deathblowed before that..
Conceal Shot = From Cover only, no Damage modifier, does not aggro a mob but all of his friends see you. Being worked on by devs.
FlushingShot1 = Single target random pool, stuns target... Can someone explain what Stun actually does? I just have never seen a benefit from it. Moderate Damage.
FlurryShot1 = Single Target, Random Pool, causes Dizzy. Moderate Damage. Pretty cool when people change posture a lot. If not, Dizzy does nothing.
Headshot3 = Single Target, Mind damage, Supposedly does high damage, although most agree that the high damage is to yourself. With a sliced and powered up laser (630 damage)in PvE I have gotten a 1500 point shot with it, once. With a 58 HAM rifle, does about 120 mind pool damage to me. OUCH!
Sneak = Allows you to crawl while in cover.. Since cover is borked, well you get the pic.
StartleShot = Single Target, Random HAM, will raise posture of a target. Moderate Damage.
SurpriseShot = Single Target, Random HAM, Can only be fired from cover, supposed to be a high damage single shot to surprise your enemies. Currently can only be done with a Carbine (LOL!).
FlushingShot2 = Cone Effect (Multiple Targets), Random HAM, High Damage. Otherwise same as Flushing 1.
FlurryShot2 = Cone Effect (Multiple Targets), Random HAM, High Damage. Otherwise same as Flurry 1
StartleShot2 = Cone Effect (Multiple Targets), Random HAM, High Damage. Othewise same as Startle 1.
SniperShot = SingleTarget, Random Ham, Ranged Deathblow. Serves no purpose to any PvE hunting, does about 30 points of damage in PvP. But it does allow a ranged deathblow..
And the ever vaunted, Master Marksman,
StrafeShot2 = Cone Effect (Multiple Targets), Random HAM, Very High Damage, Same as Strafe 1.
That will work for me, Im pretty lucky on coin tosses.
LoX-Malek wrote:
Or flip a coin to see who gets to be uber and who needs to just hush...
Or how about rock paper scissors.
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
We are already screwed over by the dev's lack of foresight. Not the 2.5x melee mod, not the lack accuracy, but the fact that we kill ourselves faster then any other class thanks to our gift. Because of that fact we cannot use armor seeing how the primary encumberance if for mind harmind us and practically us alone.
Then pursue these problems, rather than asking Sony to drag us all down until it takes a group of eight to kill a durni!
AldeonAvardulin wrote:
Jaeg, I want you to admit to the fact that you guys are accurate at both short and long ranges. Otherwise, test with me and prove me wrong.
We've never contradicted you here! I've said many times that rifles need to be more accurate at short range -- not because that will make you "the same" as Pistoeers, but because your targets easily and consistently close to long range! Why can't you get behind this change, instead of making Pistoleers as gimped at long range as you are at short range?!
Nerfing Pistoleers Will Not Help You.
-c.
Elanoic wrote:
We've never contradicted you here! I've said many times that rifles need to be more accurate at short range -- not because that will make you "the same" as Pistoeers, but because your targets easily and consistently close to long range! Why can't you get behind this change, instead of making Pistoleers as gimped at long range as you are at short range?!
Nerfing Pistoleers Will Not Help You.
-c.
No nerfing pistoleers will help us. Why give us accuracy at short range? Are you trying to make us just a slow pistoleer? We want what was said in our description, Masters Of Long Range. How many times do I have to say this, we want to be masters of long range. I will take your speed nerf as long as I am a master of long range.
We didnt pick this class to be slow pistoleers, we picked it becuase we wanted to be the sniper, the guy at logn range. The guy with a rifleman a thousand yards out hitting you in the head.
WayneInAustin wrote:
Because, Elanoic, the rightanswer for SWG is not to have all weapons powerful at all ranges, its to have specific weapons powerful within their own range. Otherwise just offer one weapon in the game. To everyone.
I second that.
Elanoic wrote:
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
We are already screwed over by the dev's lack of foresight. Not the 2.5x melee mod, not the lack accuracy, but the fact that we kill ourselves faster then any other class thanks to our gift. Because of that fact we cannot use armor seeing how the primary encumberance if for mind harmind us and practically us alone.
Then pursue these problems, rather than asking Sony to drag us all down until it takes a group of eight to kill a durni!
Can I ask you how long the game has been in playing mode (Beta included)? And yet armor is still broken, if they want to lower the encumberance for mind I'm all for it, in fact that idea has been mentioned before. However since armor itself doesnt work, and is primarily useless in PvP this fact matters not. I would love to be able to use armor but as of now it has too big of a minus and there is no plus.
And I"m somewhat curious, what was your stance for the first patch when they dragged us down below marksmen? Cause I feel eye for an eye would be appropriate, even if just for a week so you can understand the pain we have to endure to level up, only crafters experience a more tedius grind.
Jaegen, buddy, *sigh* I don't even know where to begin, well aside from laughing at this pointless defense you're putting up to try and keep pistoleers in god mode, anyway since everyone else does it, lets take things point by point.
What you're trying to imply is that the speed change "only" hurst rifleman. This is not true. In fact, I already stated, and you know, that the speed issue affects rifleman, BHs, Carbineers, Pistoleers, even melee, but less so since their speeds are divided, but TKA is over 100..which meant again, it was screwed up.
even faster pistols + even slower riflemen =even more gimpedriflemen it's not hard to see buddy. If we have a hard cap of 1 shot to every 3 (or 6) that a pistol user gets then thats an automatic nerf to our damage output in any extended fight. The issue effects all the classes yes, but it effects US more then any other given that if we miss we die, you miss you get 2-5 more chances to hit, it leads to either 1 of3 situations.
#1 Riflemen get a unbalanceddamage increase to compensate, we get one shot kills, we become the new flavor of the month, and we get eventually nerfed again.
#2 A riflemean misses, he gets rushed to pointblank taking damage all the way, misses again thanks to our pint blank mods, and is killed by the next 3-6 shots leaving his target having taken just HAM damage from his own styles.
#3 Rifleman misses, tries to run, suffers the same slow shots on top of run and gun, and is reverse kited by the pistol user with speed and accuracy while moving mods and the faster gun.
Now do any of those sound even close to fair to you? As for melee they had they're own issues addressed in a seperate area, so trying to bring them into this is a straw man distracting us from the real issue.
It's crazy yes master riflemen shoot at 1 second same as pistols, but just dropping this cap cuts our damage output by 2/3 no matter how you try to word it. Sounds like a nerf to me that, but oh yes damage will be "looked into after" so it's all good right? (/sarcasm)
What about melee professions that had no way to reach their uber speed cap? Left in the cold? Yeah, you'd like that wouldn't you.
Again bringing up melee is another issue, besides
#1 you kite them better then us anyway (run and gun)
#2 if they hit us we're dead anyway so it's a moot point as long as 2.5x melee is there.
Your damage goes off the charts, and theirs just chugs along at low speed even at master.
Name ONE riflemean that has said we want to PvP gods of damage please and I'll give you a medal.
Again we don't want to be the flavor of the month. All we want is our unnerfed T21 back, which with the new toys out and the mind damage heals coming I think we deserve. Riflemen don't want god mode, rifleman want a chance! As for going off the charts damage how are those krayt pistols working out for you? (/annoyance)
You'd like to spend only master marksman + master rifleman while carbineers had to purchase BH and had no skills left over. Hey, you're human, I don't blame you for liking the advantage, but when push comes to shove, and it's being removed, don't kick and scream about how it was your ONLY advantage and that it was inentional. Instead, figure out how YOU would like rifle speed to work.
Speed wasn't even close to an advanatge Jaegen, ask any master here and they'll tell you that speed was the only thing that made a rifleman even slightly able to compete given all the other issues we have.Rifle it's been established as an all or nothing class or it's not worth taking, can you really the same about pistoleer? And that "advanatge" does a whole lot of good anyway when you're sitting for 5 minutes resting your mind after 15 seconds of combat.
Put simply, with a front line to keep your from being immediately charged up close, you are more effective than pistols/carbines at range.
Until a player charges us, apet rushes us at burst run speed right though that frontline, or we wait 3 seconds for someone to run from 64m to 0 and destroy us. If we had range (80-120)this arguement might be valid, but when you're a long range fighter in a short range world it means diddly squat. And if you stack mods no we aren't. the master marksmen/pistoleer/bh template has enough accuracy mods on it to turn a -70 a pistol has at max range into a +50 or more, what does the T21 have? In that 4m 64-60 sweet spot? +10....yeah Real fair that one. The best riflemen is still a guy with a pistol right now hands down.
just like casters in other MMORPGs, you get rushed, you die. You stay at range, by whatever tactics, groups, spcecials allow you to, and you do better than the other, more generic damage professions.
And unlike casters our front loaded damage thanks to nerfs and broken AR is still somewhere between diddly, and again diddly! Master's can do awesome strafeshot2's sure, for about 5 seconds (see HAM cost issues) but until you hit flushingvolley2 our best "Caster cannon shot" is headshot 3, and that has the same issues as the others (leg and body shot 3) just ours takes insane mind HAMto do.
As forAE's I've got with 2 blocks of rifle speed a good 6 second lag between shots using flushing volly and a laser rifle.1 shot of it might kill blue cons, but won't even dent most whites or players. So what happens in that lag time? We get rushed, we get smacked, and we get killed. Meanwhile the happy pistol userbeside us is gleefully tanking and blasting away at critterswe can only dream of soloing, as in any mob thatis social. again mind telling me what's fair here buddy? No tactics on the face of this earth can save you if you can't shoot. Perfect example brought up by Pecos
Warning shot lag with rifle 3 seconds.
Warning shot lag now with pistol 1 second.
So who now has the better chance of living? Here's a hint not the profession getting smacked by rasps and vynocks for 300 a hit.
As for the rest.
Why should riflemen be the only ranged profession forced to group to be effective?
Our specials (entire conceal line) Just as broken as you say yours are.
suppression dizzy combo has been nerfed to hell now and that's if suppression even works, so there goes that means.
And does other generic professions mean anyway Jaegen? Last time I looked it takes the exact same amount to master any elite ranged profession, so don't go trying to seperate us from you, that isn't going to work.
You have cover, pistoleers have..nothing like that
Cover if you look is a marksman skill. We get a bonus yes, but cover is also still broken when you get up to try and walk after. By the way when was the last time you saw anyone in a pvp fight go prone and make themselves a target?
You have DB at range, pistoleers have...nothing like that
Wow and this matters in solving the issues we have how? Stop putting up distractions, like we even use it when we're the ones ending up dead, i'd gladly trade this for a USEFUL skill.
Even when it comes to variety, pistoleers suck. So quit with the pistoleer nerfs, no one is dying to pistoleers, it's bounty hunters.
No it's pistol users who dabbled for eyeshot and the ungodly stacking mods we don't have actually 90% of the time. But that one's not your fault either.
Here is your arugment:
Rifles suck because other players can charge us, therefore pistoleers need a range nerf.
No rifle's suck because you don't need to charge, it just makes things easier for you to do so. And pistol users can't have the cake and eat it too jaegen. You can't be the kings of speed and range, so do us all a favor and stop smearing us and Aldeon like some pistolleers have been doing in the forumsto try and keep both.
1) Currently, accuracy decreases/increases lineraly with range. To help define the accuracy ranges for the weapon more and help class seperation by range, this could easily be changed to a sinusoidal relationship (cosine function from -pi to pi scewed so that the 0 point is at the ideal range). This would improve accuracy near the ideal range while decreasing accuracy further out from the ideal range. (effect is minor, but I think it would help)
2) Cap accuracy at +100. This way we don't have BH's running around with +160 accuracy and never miss. (yeah, this is mainly a BH nerf, there are probably better solutions out there, but this is just an idea)
3) Either increase special mods for rifle/carbine to be in line with pistol, or reduce pistol to be inline with carbine or rifle.
4) An alternative to #3, scale the +accuracy mods for specials with respect to range. ex. BS2: +50 arround the ideal range, reducing to +5 or so at max range. This stacked with #1 could help define the weapon ranges much better.
Your thougts on these are welcome, I hope you all find something here you can use.
Lithiri: Novice Ranger, Novice Rifleman, Novice Pistoleer; Ahazi
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
It would seem to me that the problem here is that you're still looking at the problem as a confrontational one instead of a cooperative one. Is your intent to see what could be done positively to improve Jaegen's understanding of Rifleman Issues so you can get some ideas for a fix? Or is this just to see if you can justify your call for a nerf on Jaegen's class by getting whacked?
I'll tell you right now. You get your best Rifleman Weapon out and Put it against Jaegen with a Tenloss DX-2 (The ONLY Pistoleer Weapon)in his hand? You're gonna vape him at range. He might hit you once. And he'll hit you for normal Pistol Damage to your health bar. Where you're more likely to smack him for 500+ on his mind bar. Something he'd only be able to heal by sitting a spell or having me dance for him.
If you're not doing as much damage as you should at long range, that's what you need to be suggesting to the devs. If we can hit you for 250 four times at close range, you should be able to hit us for a grand at long range. I also happen to think that you should be albe to hit us with a grand at close range, provided you have the skill to bring it to bear at close range. And I think we should still be able to bust 4 caps into you for 200 each at 64 yards, if we have the steady enough hand to make it count at long range.
Asking to DEGRADE someone else's ability to your advantage is a request a child makes. You're asking for a handicap to make up for an inferior ability. That's a lazy way to handle the problem. An ADULT looks at their problem and tries to figure out a way to rise above it successfully. An adult chooses to FIX the problem (nless you're George Bush or Bill Gates) by improving themselves. Not by hamstringing the opposition, which only reveals the inadequacy of the one crying out for the equalizer to bring the hammer down.
"So you would support a system that leaves us all blind and toothless?"
-Setai Delenn, 'Babylon 5'
AldeonAvardulin wrote:
WayneInAustin wrote:Because, Elanoic, the rightanswer for SWG is not to have all weapons powerful at all ranges, its to have specific weapons powerful within their own range. Otherwise just offer one weapon in the game. To everyone.
I second that.
You're better off getting a firm description of what roles are supposed to be. Personally, I have no problems with pistoleers being pretty accurate throughout the range as long as Riflemen (and carbineers, and every other class) still end up with a viable niche, i.e. AE damage. I always envisioned pistoleers as being the 'melee stoppers' - the people who keep melee off of the riflemen while the riflemen provide AE cover fire.
Everyone is assuming that the range categories are the proper 'niches' for the three ranged elite classes. I'm not convinced that is the case. Rifle = AE damage, carbine = AE status, pistol = single target seems to be a much closer fit.
Wait I"m kinda curious, I just hit novice rifleman the day of the T 21 nerf so I am not too sure. But wasnt the fact that we were hitting for 1,000 damage the reason we are in so miserable a position as we are now?
WinterRoseASFR wrote:
If you're not doing as much damage as you should at long range, that's what you need to be suggesting to the devs. If we can hit you for 250 four times at close range, you should be able to hit us for a grand at long range. I also happen to think that you should be albe to hit us with a grand at close range, provided you have the skill to bring it to bear at close range. And I think we should still be able to bust 4 caps into you for 200 each at 64 yards, if we have the steady enough hand to make it count at long range.
"So you would support a system that leaves us all blind and toothless?"
-Setai Delenn, 'Babylon 5'