Rifleman Archive
Thread: The poop on the Combat rebalance, someone FINNALLY got answers from Fan Fest.
Sotaudi wrote:
But all this is pointless. They are going to try to make us snipers at 64m, and none of it will work. So go back under the bridge. You have won.
Sotaudi,
You always have great posts. Keep it up. But don't be so quick to give up. When Wookiees wanted armor we heard similar arguements. That it wasn't "intended" by the Devs. That it would be "unbalancing". But we persisted. Now Wookiees have some armor and two more sets are supposedly on the way. If we can do it once we can do it again.
It may be after the Combat Nerf. But we can keep plugging away. And the more these trolls come here the more we have the opportunity to convert. Even if it's only one in twenty. Not everyone who reads here posts. There will be some that don't post but will be nodding their head in agreement. It's those we have to keep posting in an effort to reach out to.
Waste93 wrote:
Sotaudi wrote:
But all this is pointless. They are going to try to make us snipers at 64m, and none of it will work. So go back under the bridge. You have won.
Sotaudi,
You always have great posts. Keep it up. But don't be so quick to give up. When Wookiees wanted armor we heard similar arguements. That it wasn't "intended" by the Devs. That it would be "unbalancing". But we persisted. Now Wookiees have some armor and two more sets are supposedly on the way. If we can do it once we can do it again.
It may be after the Combat Nerf. But we can keep plugging away. And the more these trolls come here the more we have the opportunity to convert. Even if it's only one in twenty. Not everyone who reads here posts. There will be some that don't post but will be nodding their head in agreement. It's those we have to keep posting in an effort to reach out to.
Waste and Sotaudi, both of you have great posts and well thought out ideas. I hope both of you put in applications for correspondant because with either of you I think rifles would be articulately defended.
Sotaudi, you must think like Luke, there is still good in the heart of the Devs, it hasn't yet been extinguished. Do not lose faith.
Good job there Waiste, at beating back all these trolls. Do you debate professionally? 
I fear that they will forget folks like me that must hunt professionally. Rifleman/Ranger was what I thought a hunter should be. Gonna really, really suck if I have to be TKM/Doc/Scout instead... or hunt bunnies...
HalasterTheBlack wrote:I don't know about you, but I would have to say that snipers in the U.S. military today do NOT shoot accurately at 1 shot per second. They sit, wait forever, get *just* the right shot, and that's it. If they miss, they're done. They leave. Usually quickly.
As the guy below me said, military snipers fire at ranges many times further than we do in the game, and they also have to sneak around, scout the area, avoid hostile patrols, and plot entry/exit routes before even considering shooting at anything.
A trained marksman with a semi-automatic rifle should be able to land at least one shot per second on a man-sized target at 64m. I can hit a target the size of a post-it note once every 4-5 seconds at ~40m with a single-shot bolt-action unscoped .22 with misaligned sights, and the only training I've had was a weekly rifles class for half a semester.
beamstalk wrote:
Waste93 wrote:
Sotaudi wrote:
But all this is pointless. They are going to try to make us snipers at 64m, and none of it will work. So go back under the bridge. You have won.
Sotaudi,
You always have great posts. Keep it up. But don't be so quick to give up. When Wookiees wanted armor we heard similar arguements. That it wasn't "intended" by the Devs. That it would be "unbalancing". But we persisted. Now Wookiees have some armor and two more sets are supposedly on the way. If we can do it once we can do it again.
It may be after the Combat Nerf. But we can keep plugging away. And the more these trolls come here the more we have the opportunity to convert. Even if it's only one in twenty. Not everyone who reads here posts. There will be some that don't post but will be nodding their head in agreement. It's those we have to keep posting in an effort to reach out to.
Waste and Sotaudi, both of you have great posts and well thought out ideas. I hope both of you put in applications for correspondant because with either of you I think rifles would be articulately defended.
Sotaudi, you must think like Luke, there is still good in the heart of the Devs, it hasn't yet been extinguished. Do not lose faith.
Message Edited by Sotaudi on 06-07-2004 04:12 PM
Waste93 wrote:
DarkShade9 wrote:
ok im going to back out of this dabate, because you dont seem to want to give even just a little. What i will say is that, either rifleman has to change or everyone else has to be broguht up to par, and quite frankly its easier to just nerf riflemen. I mean the devs dont want to have to increase everyones combat proficiency only to have to rebalnce it for pve again.
It isn't about Riflemen being overpowered. Riflemen have been about the same since launch. Other than having the 2.5X melee penalty removed and a couple specials fixed they haven't changed. So why are Riflemen being considered overpowered? It isn't Riflemen. It's armor, buffs, stims. So riflemen should be broguht into line considering armour and buffs. Just because you havtn changed doesnt meen you should not be nerfed. Armour and buffs have prbably had a muchgreater effect on the combat potential of other professions than it has done to riflemen. Many other ranged professions do very limited damage. So do you think its fair that riflemen remain so effective, when most other professions cant compete?Of course armour and buffs need a nerf, but the truth isriflemen will still be more effective than other ranged professions and if all you do is nerf armour and buffs, riflemen will be even more powerful.
Armor : Back in release you rarely saw armor. There were no buffs so the encumberance was a major trade off in this regard. People say the Jawa is overpowered because armor is now running in the 80% resist range but only having 40% vs Stun. Yet the Jawa has not changed. People want to be invulnerable of course. So they want to be 80% resist vs everything first off lol if you can get a set of 80% with 40% stun you are more than lucky. Secondly, i dont understand your mentality of "XXXX hasnt changed scince launch XXX and XXX has, therefore XXXX should be exempt from nerfs"
Buffs : When buffs came out they allowed the use of the high end armor. It negated the penalties for using it. They were also easy to come by. Just go to the local Doc and get a set of buffs.However at first you could not buff Mind. So in PvP the Mind became the favored target for the obvious reasons. Also the Riflemen abilities were offset with very high HAM costs. In the past you could fire about 10 specials before you were drained. Like armor, buffs negated this penalty getting rid of the major disadvantage Riflemen had. Later you had great foods come out and Dancer/Entertainer buffs. However these buffs still did not equal Doc buffs making the Mind still the weakest pool usually.
Stims : The trend that started it. When stims came out it became easy to heal your Health and Action pools. This made the Mind pool the one to target since it could not be healed in PvP. Also it allowed those professions with weapons that didn't primarily rely on the Mind pool to spam specials with impunity. Yes, to spam specials wich do no damage through buffs and armour an any that is done is quickly healed.
I get the feeling you want riflemen to be just how it is right now, no changes.I as a bounty hunter have felt the wrath of the nerf bat more times than i care to count and i know it hurts to see your "uber a$$" being brought back into line. But the thing is the truth hurts, rifleman is overpowered, they need to be balanced, deal with it or move on. Surely ull be happy that your profession is no longer fotm?
The truth is that Riflemen are NOT overpowered. It's Armor, Stims, and Buffs that are overpowered. But because of the law of unintended consequences it made Riflemen more favorable. We do want Riflemen most to stay the same. It's a working profession. One of the few probably. This is infuriating, riflemen are overpowered. They have a higher damage output in both pvp and pve than any other ranaged (probably many melee too, but i have not played a melee char) profession, regardless of buffs and armour. if buffs and armour are nerfed, sure the other two pools will fall faster, but riflemen will still be able to do huge amounts of damage to the mind pool, perhaps even more so.
alternativly you could of course continue to cry andwhine, whichmany bounty hunters do also, or you can wait patiently for combat rebalnce to see what it all brings, because quite frankly anything we say here is just speculation anyway.
Just because we disagree with you and others does not mean we are whining or crying.What we are doing istrying to show people that the problem isn't with Riflemen. It's with other things that were changed. We can also try to show them that it makes no sense to take a working profession and bringing it down to the level of the broken ones. All that will do is mean everyone is broken and unlikely to get fixed.
thats it, pass the buck again, "its not riflemen sir, its everyone else, they made me do it, please don't hit me with your baton'
But of course it is easier to point to Riflemen and say "nerf them!" if you are not one then say "hey, my armor, buffs, and stims are the cause, not Riflemen". That's because people want to nerf others, not themselves.
But of course it easy to point to buffs, stims and armor and say "nerf them!" if you are not one then say "hey, my massive damage output to the mind pool which is unhealable and regardless of how armour or health stims change will remain just as high, if not higher. yeah that is the cause, not everyone else i can look to blame" Thats because people want to nerf others, not themselves
You are right about everything being speculation. It's because the Devs will not release any info on the "combat rebalance". But have you ever wondered why? Could it be because they know how badly it will be received? Maybe. But regardless, we were promised better communication when the forums were redone. It's yet another promise that has been badly broken.
Ipersonally have noticed an improvement in communication on the part of the devs. There is no conspiracy againt professions or people. They are just doing their jobs. They dont try to make cr&ppy changes.
If anything a TKA with no weapons should be fastest running speed. With VK's they should have the same speed as Fencers. Fencers would be faster than Swordsmen, and Swordsmen faster than Pikemen.
OK, for grins grab a set of brass knuckles and run a 50-yard dash. Now grab a Rapier and do the same thing. Lastly do it while holding no weapon. Which one's fastest? How much time separates empty from brass knuckles? Brass knuckles from Rapier?
Wolfus Stratisferia 
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
LOL! You can tell this is the Rifleman forum... and that some of you have zero objectivity... gems:
Not really. Riflemen is actually a working profession. That is why they seem overpowered. They work while others do not.
I don't know about you, but I would have to say that snipers in the U.S. military today do NOT shoot accurately at 1 shot per second. They sit, wait forever, get *just* the right shot, and that's it. If they miss, they're done. They leave. Usually quickly.
Rifleman is working, sure. A little too well. So are a lot of other profs while a lot of them are completely NOT working.
If anything a TKA with no weapons should be fastest running speed. With VK's they should have the same speed as Fencers. Fencers would be faster than Swordsmen, and Swordsmen faster than Pikemen.
OK, for grins grab a set of brass knuckles and run a 50-yard dash. Now grab a Rapier and do the same thing. Lastly do it while holding no weapon. Which one's fastest? How much time separates empty from brass knuckles? Brass knuckles from Rapier?
You are taking the quotes out of context. Read the whole thing.
You are right. Snipers do not shoot at 1shot a second. But Riflemen are also NOT snipers. Nor can they be. Do somesearching on this board and you'll learn why.Since you want to use real life exmaples lets do so. Snipers do NOT have a max range of 64m. It's more along the lines of 1000m. Snipers have a kill ratio of about 1.5 shots fired per kill. Do you want to have two shot kills in the game? Snipers remain hidden from their targets using camo and concealment. So lets make Riflemen invisible in the game too for at least the first couple shots.
If you think people think Riflemen are overpowered now, wait til those ideas go thru and see what happens.
Also you are wrong about them moving if the miss. That is not always the case. That depends on the value of their targets and the actions of their targets. It also depends on the kind of sniper. There are three kinds.
As for the second quote. Read the whole thing and maybe you will get some understanding. The original poster said that ALL melee professions should have the same speed with the exception of TKA's armed with VKs. He stated they should be slower. I pointed out that would mean that carrying a polearm or two handed sword allowed you to go faster than someone carrying a small set of VK's.
The correct formula would have speed decrease in proportion to the size/bulk of the weapon being carried. I grouped VK's with Fencer weapons for ease in the calculations.
Riflemen is working as you stated. But it isn't working "to well" as you stated. It's armor, buffs, and stims that are working "to well". Riflemen has barely changed since release. If we weren't "working to well" then and haven't changed, then the fault can't lie with the Rifleman profession.
Furthermore lets look at the second part of your statement. Other professions are NOT working as you stated. So to fix this you want to take a working profession and make it non-working? How about actually fixing those professions and making them *gasp* work. Your logic of breaking working professions to make them in line with admitadly non-working ones makes little sense. If your car is broken does that mean everyone elses should be broken too? Or does it mean you should get your fixed?
And if you want to use your real world example. I'll give you those brass knuckles. I'll take my AR15 and set up 50m away. What are your chances?
Message Edited by Waste93 on 06-07-2004 01:56 PM
BaronJedi wrote:
Umm, how will Riflemen be even more powerful if armor and buffs are nerfed? I use to get hit with last ditches close to 1000 damage. Point is you can't just point the finger at Rifleman now when you didn't before, when the profession was basically the same. It just makes it obvious that nerfing Rifleman does absolutely nothing to help the game, because it is not the root of the problem. If it was then it would have been nerfed in September..
Buffs just made attacking the mind pool an even more appealing option. Armor made it so Rifleman had an even bigger advantage. They damage their opponents while their opponents have to deal with insanely overpowered armor. And yet they increase the potential of the other combat professions more than a Rifleman's? I'd like to know how.
because that was probably a pre-nerf fwg-5 (zero AP) take into account armor lets say combat balance armor is50 effectivnesson the high end. that 1000 points of damage will take a 50% hit just from the ap (down to 500) add in the 50%resistance wow a whopping 250. now take into account the last ditch speed mod with a master pistoleer shooting you're firing that at around once every 2 seconds (and he had to take two classes to do that)
now i can hit close to 1500 with strafe 2 using a high damage sliced T21 against the same armored person ... i'll take 25% off that for a guy wearing armor (being he's ap1 instead of zero) you're down to 1125. now i'll take 50% off that we're at around 550 (rounded down) firing at around the same rate the pistoleer is.
now if both of these guys wanted to shoot at the cap, the rifle would only have to aquire +7 in skill tapes (2 if master marksman.) the pistoleer (if i remember right from my smuggler days) would have to find over +15 in skill tapes.
point is that's double the power for much less skill point cost.
a side note. - the downside of rifle was not only the 2.5 melee damage bonus but the heavy mind cost to fire the rifle. that's not an issue anymore with the food on the market today.