Rifleman Archive
Thread: The poop on the Combat rebalance, someone FINNALLY got answers from Fan Fest.
oh, and for all those people who are angry about riflemen firing t21s at near 1.0 speed... the t21 was originally a light REPEATING blaster. It was meant to fire a round a second!
Message Edited by Whatspeakyou on 06-08-2004 04:28 AM
DarkShade9 wrote:
first off lol
Way to be constructive there, genius. After seeing just that, it makes anything you have to say absolutely meaningless. I don't really care who agrees with me on that or not, you sir, are a troll who cares nothing for balance. Riflemen have had the following changed sincelaunch:
- Concealshot now works. Does this affect PvP (you and every other nerf cryer's real concern. You do realize that PvE is well over 90% of what goes on in this game?) at all? Not a bit. So this change isn't a problem for you.
- The 2.5x melee modifier was removed. This sure affects you. Instead of Riflemen getting 1-hit incapped in PvP, we take normal damage from melee combatants, but we are never missed. Such is how it was intended to be when this change was made.
- Accuracy was improved. I know you hate this part, face the facts: before we got more accuracy, you would be hard-pressed to find a Rifleman who could get 75% accuracy. While that may sound good to you, remember that the only ones hitting the 1 sec cap are Masters who can afford +rifle speed skill tapes. That means that those Masters and non-Masters who are firing specials once every 2.5-4 seconds are dead if they even miss once. Even then, it's not gonna be an easy win. As it is now, all ranged professions pretty much hit this hidden 'accuracy cap'. What this does is allows Riflemen to be accurate at 0 meters. What non-Riflemen fail to realize is that a Master Pistoleer is just as accurate at 64 meters.
Go to the Pistoleer forum. They seem to be pretty much split between the whiners and the veterans. The whiners say they are the laughing stock of the combat professions. As a Rifleman, I find that statement to be ridiculous. The veterans, however, know that things aren't that bad and will tell you they can very often take out a Master Rifleman if both side are unbuffed and unarmored.
Doesn't this prove that it is buffs and armor that are the problem? I don't care how many thousands of credits you payed for your precious weapons and armor. The combat balance is nerfing them to how all things were meant to be. We didn't have this uber junk on day one or even in the first several weeks.
Crying for a nerf to our profession is the quick and easy way out. Fine, go for it. I dare you to try that crap in your everyday life. That's why some people get hurt. Badly. Besides, while we are getting nerfed as you so desire in the CB, so is everyone else (for the billionth time). No one seems to be able to keep this in mind, least of all you trolls. I'm sorry you'll be losing credits on all you 'uber' junk, but you'll have to deal with it. The Devs know your little toys are the problem with PvP nowadays and are acting accordingly.
Sorpo,
Wow, you have one whole post. Ever. And I see why- you say we are snipers. We are not. That make you an idiot. Sorry, but I'm quite sick of being told what I am by people who don't even care what I am just as long as they are something better. Get a life. This is a game. If you don't enjoy it, I hear lots of people are having fun with CoH right now. You know what 'fun' is, don't you. I implore you to try it sometime.
/rant off
I cannot wait for the Combat Revamp. 
ROBO1964 wrote:
They are gonna change the game from a strategic combat system to a system of hit the player with your strongest attack and and hope they don't have any medic skills.
With so little variaty in combat styles between the combat professions its hard to see it any other way, but we just half to wait and see what the Combat Balance brings. Oh, and where did my posts go?
quit whining... you have been uber powered forever now
Repaq wrote:
BaronJedi wrote:
Umm, how will Riflemen be even more powerful if armor and buffs are nerfed? I use to get hit with last ditches close to 1000 damage. Point is you can't just point the finger at Rifleman now when you didn't before, when the profession was basically the same. It just makes it obvious that nerfing Rifleman does absolutely nothing to help the game, because it is not the root of the problem. If it was then it would have been nerfed in September..
Buffs just made attacking the mind pool an even more appealing option. Armor made it so Rifleman had an even bigger advantage. They damage their opponents while their opponents have to deal with insanely overpowered armor. And yet they increase the potential of the other combat professions more than a Rifleman's? I'd like to know how.
because that was probably a pre-nerf fwg-5 (zero AP) take into account armor lets say combat balance armor is50 effectivnesson the high end. that 1000 points of damage will take a 50% hit just from the ap (down to 500) add in the 50%resistance wow a whopping 250. now take into account the last ditch speed mod with a master pistoleer shooting you're firing that at around once every 2 seconds (and he had to take two classes to do that)
now i can hit close to 1500 with strafe 2 using a high damage sliced T21 against the same armored person ... i'll take 25% off that for a guy wearing armor (being he's ap1 instead of zero) you're down to 1125. now i'll take 50% off that we're at around 550 (rounded down) firing at around the same rate the pistoleer is.
now if both of these guys wanted to shoot at the cap, the rifle would only have to aquire +7 in skill tapes (2 if master marksman.) the pistoleer (if i remember right from my smuggler days) would have to find over +15 in skill tapes.
point is that's double the power for much less skill point cost.
a side note. - the downside of rifle was not only the 2.5 melee damage bonus but the heavy mind cost to fire the rifle. that's not an issue anymore with the food on the market today.
DarkShade9 wrote:
So riflemen should be broguht into line considering armour and buffs. Just because you havtn changed doesnt meen you should not be nerfed. Armour and buffs have prbably had a muchgreater effect on the combat potential of other professions than it has done to riflemen. Many other ranged professions do very limited damage. So do you think its fair that riflemen remain so effective, when most other professions cant compete?Of course armour and buffs need a nerf, but the truth isriflemen will still be more effective than other ranged professions and if all you do is nerf armour and buffs, riflemen will be even more powerful.
Buffs had the most impact on Riflemen. It was because of buffs that allowed Riflemen to negate the very high HAM costs and allows us to use our high end specials. Before this you could get off about 10 shots before your Mind pool was drained.
Nor will reducing armor,stims, buffs make Riflemen more effective. It makes them less so. To be able to do damage you also have to be able to survive long enough to do so. Lowering armor and buffs reduces this and hence reduces the ability do damage.
first off lol if you can get a set of 80% with 40% stun you are more than lucky. Secondly, i dont understand your mentality of "XXXX hasnt changed scince launch XXX and XXX has, therefore XXXX should be exempt from nerfs"
As I originally stated, armor depends on the server. When I was a Smuggler I was asked to slice crates of armor. The armor was at 77% resists. Even a moderate effectiveness slice will bring that over 80% easy.
Nor do I understand your mentality of admitting that the problem is with armor, buffs, stims but then saying "nerf riflemen".
Yes, to spam specials wich do no damage through buffs and armour an any that is done is quickly healed.
And that is a problem with Riflemen how? It's a problem with buffs, armor, and stims as you just stated. Not Riflemen.
This is infuriating, riflemen are overpowered. They have a higher damage output in both pvp and pve than any other ranaged (probably many melee too, but i have not played a melee char) profession, regardless of buffs and armour. if buffs and armour are nerfed, sure the other two pools will fall faster, but riflemen will still be able to do huge amounts of damage to the mind pool, perhaps even more so.
They are suppose to have high damage output. That is their role. Only Commandos should be higher. But Riflemen make up for this by having few status effect attacks (we have dizzy and stun) and almost no defense vs status changes.
Do you want to make everyone have the same damage? If so, then shouldn't Riflemen and Pistoleers get all the status attacks that Carbineers have? And shouldn't Riflemen and Carbineers get all the defenses that a Pistoleer gets?
Linear balance will not work in this game because it's a skill based RPG type system. Not a class based one.
Here is the example that I always use when explaining circular balance as opposed to linear balance.
You have a Rifleman, Carbineer, and a Pistoleer. The Rifleman faces off with the Pistoleer. The Rifleman should win most of the time. Why? The strength of the Rifleman is their ability to do lots of damage. The Pistoleers is the ability to defend against status attacks and their Dodge skill. However since the Rifleman is not doing status attacks the advantage is his. The raw damage (strength) is being pitted against a weakness in the Pistoleer.
Now the Rifleman faces off against the Carbineer. The Rifleman uses raw damage. The Carbineerhowever uses status attacks (strength). Which is pitted against the weakness of the Rifleman, namely the lack of defenses against such attacks. So the Rifleman is KD, stun, etc. The Carbineer should win most of the time.
Then we have the Carbineer facing the Pistoleer. Again the Carbineer uses status attacks (strength) against the Pistoleer. However the Pistoleers defenses counter this. While the Pistoleer has a few status attacks of their own that they can use which the Carbineer has few defenses against. So the Pistoleer should win most of the time.
That is circular balance. It isn't everyone having equal chances. It's everyone having a strength and weakness that they can exploit.
Nor am I saying that with circular balance everything is balanced now. It isn't. It requires some tweaking. Such as delay mods on the specials for both Carbineers and Pistoleers need to come down. Pistoleers also need their defenses increased. While I think Carbineers probably need a change so their status attacks stick more often.
But of course it easy to point to buffs, stims and armor and say "nerf them!" if you are not one then say "hey, my massive damage output to the mind pool which is unhealable and regardless of how armour or health stims change will remain just as high, if not higher. yeah that is the cause, not everyone else i can look to blame" Thats because people want to nerf others, not themselves
It's easy to do because it's also true. The Riflemens ability to target the mind pool has not changed since release. Nor have their weapons abilities really. So if Riflemen are overpowered now, then they must have been overpowered at release also. Were they? No. Then why are then considered so now?
Because of armor, buffs, and stims. Those items have made the Mind pool the target of choice in PvP.
Also this is only a problem with PvP. An activety most people do not even do. The ability to target the Mind in PvE is no more effective than targeting any other pool since the MOBs do not heal themselves and have even HAM pools.
It seems most of the changes that are being asked for are for PvP issues that a small minority does, and it has an adverse effect on PvE which the majority of people do.
Ipersonally have noticed an improvement in communication on the part of the devs. There is no conspiracy againt professions or people. They are just doing their jobs. They dont try to make cr&ppy changes.
You have? Where? Look at the Smugglers. Their communication improvement was that they were repeatedly lied to about their revamp. Now GreenMarine (a great Dev by the way) is forced into a horrible situation where he has to ask the Smugglers to trust him about the Smuggler revamp. Considering the "improved communictions" they received in the past, the Smugglers are a bit sceptical.
Do you remember the DE revamp? The DE's came up with a list of great ideas. Then a certain someone told the Devs they wanted a new profession called the Droid Commander. Basically a CH with droids. Yet this was something the majority of DE's had specifically said they did NOT want. They wanted droids that everyone could use. So their revamp was pushed back for months.
This combat revamp was suppose to come out in four parts starting in Jan. The new HAM system was suppose to go in Feb. But that has been all pushed back. Yet we still know next to nothing about this major overhaul that will effect a great many players.
So where is the improved communication? When was the last post by a red name on this board? How about on the Carbineer or BH boards? At one point they stated they were going to do about a monthly update on each board. Do you see one?
I don't think there is a conspiracy by the Devs. Nor that they want to put out bad changes. But bad changes will occur if they push thru ideas and systems without letting the players vet them. We, the players, know our professions much better than the Devs. We play a lot more. We've found most of the little tricks, bugs, and exploits. We can also find the holes in their ideas if they share them so that when they are released they are much more complete.
Which is why the Riflemen know that making us snipers will not work. And which is why we are trying to change their minds.
Their job is to make the game fun and enjoyable. We want to help them accomplish this.
That isn't the issue. I don't think most Riflemen have a problem with moving slow while carrying a large bulky rifle. That makes sense. What doesn't is that assault rifles somehow SHOOT slower than a semi-auto pistol.
K0MMIE wrote:
riflemen SHOULD MOVE SLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
quit whining... you have been uber powered forever now
DarkShade9 wrote:
Waste93 wrote:
DarkShade9 wrote:
snip
Umm, how will Riflemen be even more powerful if armor and buffs are nerfed? I use to get hit with last ditches close to 1000 damage. Point is you can't just point the finger at Rifleman now when you didn't before, when the profession was basically the same. It just makes it obvious that nerfing Rifleman does absolutely nothing to help the game, because it is not the root of the problem. If it was then it would have been nerfed in September..
Buffs just made attacking the mind pool an even more appealing option. Armor made it so Rifleman had an even bigger advantage. They damage their opponents while their opponents have to deal with insanely overpowered armor. And yet they increase the potential of the other combat professions more than a Rifleman's? I'd like to know how.