Rifleman Archive
Thread: You convinced us
Just a few things.
1)Rifles have a hard time with armor. You do not snipe a tank. They however do a lot of damage to unarmored things, like flesh. Example, you take a .22 round and put it in a pistol. That is shot at a human head. Chances are it will not penetrate the skull. You take that exact same round and put it into a rifle and do the same test as it were. It does not only penetrate the skull but had a good chance of exiting the other side.
2)I play both a Mon Cal master architect with pistol specialist. I also play a master scout wookie with rifle specialist. I can tell you the pistol is by for more powerful. First you can heal yourself much faster with the fire rate – big bonus. Second a missed shot doesn’t mean you die. With a rifle, you miss, that mod is on top of you and you die, even blue cons can take you down. Also their ranges, although different for optimal, are the same. Do you know the best sniper rifles in the world can hit targets over a mile away? This is very wrong. Playing both I have to say that the pistol is by far more superior on every level. The range is just not a factor since you need to be close with any weapon. Add to that fire rate which affects self heal rate, warning shot use, and my master architect can take on several yellow con scytes at once and win. My wookie with his bowcaster only has a chance at surviving one scyte if the trap works. Otherwise he is toast. There is a huge imbalance there.
3)Rifles have long in between shot times, which is correct. However the shot comes before the wait time, not after. No rifleman pulls out his rifle and takes a quick shot. That 5 to 8 seconds should come before the shot, not after. Also they do not run and shoot. If you are moving, you shouldn’t be able to shoot. Likewise if you set up your shot, a skilled rifleman will hit is target more often than not.
4)The close melee bonus others get on rifleman is dead on. Good job there, however without a range bonus to the rifle, i.e. it can shot a target at 128m where a pistol needs to be 32m to hit the same target, this is a huge disadvantage over other weapons. You put in the correct penalty but didn’t get the bonus right, that being range.
5)Snipers are the most feared warriors on a battlefield if you are not in a tank. They kill with a single shot and you never see them. The rifleman profession should reflect that. If a player has only the minimal points in their mind pool, then one shot kills on them should be possible. Most others it should only take a second shot. Likewise the melee penalty should be such that if a melee fighter gets close to a rifleman, they are toast. One or two shots should finish off the rifleman.
6)The majority of combat in the game is PvE which do not heal any HAM pool. The rifles affect on the mind pool advantage is greatly over stated. There may need to be a PvP adjustment here, like more melee penalties to adjust for this, but not nerfs.
So my suggestions would be first lower the armor rating on a rifle. Make it realistic; it is not a rocket launcher. It does do a better job against armor than any other weapon class and this should be reflected. Second, adjust the damage to be in line with other weapons. If a pistol does 150 points of damage, a rifle should do 450 points of damage. Second lower a rifles fire time isn’t the way to go, make it 5 to 8 second and have it fire after that time, not before. So for two shots take 10 to 16 seconds, no 5 to 8. Make the range inline with other weapons. If a pistols range in 64m, then a rifle should to 320m. A better way would be to lower the pistol to 32m, carbine to 64m and increase the rifle to 128m. This would make the different guns work in different ways therefore each gun is better for this situation. A rifle and only a rifle should rule at long rank, yet be completely in effective at short. A carbine is the perfect mix of fire time and range. Nothing is better than a pistol in close quarters. Using a rifle in a cantina should be as stupid as using a pistol in the open field. Right now using a rifle seems stupid since the pistol is much more powerful. Master marksmen would then be the masters their title deservers rather than pistoleers with wasted skill points.
Those are my suggestions for limiting/enhancing rifles and getting other guns in line with each other. After playing both pistol and rifles, I can truly say rifles are broken and offer no advantage save for that very rare case you find a medic in PvP.
I think everyone is celebrating a little too early. I would like to see someone crunch the numbers.
(I dont' have time ...hell, I shouldn't even be reading this d*mn forum now!)
My gut feeling isthat they gave us the right rifle, then reduced it by 50%, then gave us back 20%.
And we're cheering?
I'm with the "reduce the HAM" faction.
I spend a large part of my hunting time on my butt wathing my blue bar go back up pixel by pixel.
I don't care about the speed that much, but I would like to see the damage be SLIGHTLY higher than the Laser rifle.
In all honestly, considering how far the Laser Rifle is from the top of the pack, I would hope that the weapons above it would get progressively better. That does not seem to be the case. But still, the T21 shouldn't have to COMPETE with the Laser Rifle for supremecy. As it is the Laser Rifle HOUSES my Mind Pool. Maybe that's how they'll prevent us from using Power-Ups on our T21's? By making sure we always have to strap on a Mind Cost Reduction mod. Heh.
Kona_Combine wrote:
Selfyn,
Wishful thinking bro, but remember we are rifleman not Bounty Hunters, no love for us just nerfs massive nerfs, that are uncalled for then an OOOPS **edit** we messed up, how about we give you 1 out of the 4 things we took away from your classes Weapons, we are even now yes? They can shove that AP3 where the sun dont shine.
Well if the way Holo wants the game to be is any indication,all combat classesare going to feel the nerf bathard soon. You are not meant to be killing those redcon mobs.
I would have to agree with Caijal on this subject. AP3 is a start but the rifle is still imperfect.
The HAM costs are still the same, this results in the same number of shotsand lower damage over the course of a battle. Lowering the speed just meansRifleman run out of mind faster in the same number of shots. I have been using a T21 for a few weeks now and there is nothing more frustrating then running out of mind before something is dead. This forces me to do normal attacks and hit an entirely different pool. Might as well not shoot the mind pool at all ifthe jobcant befinished.
Also Caijal suggests the damage be increased so that the Min is 80 - 115 and the Max is 200 - 375. That sounds good to me, though i would raise the Min to 175 or 200 
His numbers for speed also seem reasonable for the amount of damage.
Raising the damage and lowering the rate of fire would be the ideal situation. However, lower HAM costs is also a decent alternative.
As it stands the gun still needs tweaking and AP3 is only the beginning.
Holocron wrote:The "math" thread persuaded us that we were wrong; there's enough other factors that we didn't account for that we agree that we're not looking at all the variables.
We're currently looking at restoring the armor piercing, but not putting the damage back. How does that sound in terms of balance?
Thanks Holo! Now I won't re-roll.
It sounds alot better than, what was proposed as the first fix, but i think the max damage should be on par with the laser rifle. As the speed approaches 1 as we move towards master, The T21 will do less damage max than the laser rifle, even with 25% added from AP, 290 *1.25 = 362.5, i have seen laserrifles with a max of 376, and i bet they would be better with 1000 stat resources.
The developer was reluctant about a weapon shooting for 2700 on one shot. So you halved the damage, and halved the speed. Please cut the HAM costs in half as well, so our damage potential (before having to rest to regain mind) suffer.
Thank you for listening to us, just a shame that you the developers dont have all the facts even though you made the **edit** thing *grin*
Paragon out.... good math in...
**edit**...didn't anyone here conceive that the T21 was grotesquely overpowered once the AP3 multiplier AND the specials multiplier were taken into consideration, on top of the insane base damage? *THAT* was what they were trying to fix.
The damage, as it is now, is perfect IF the T21 had AP3. With AP3, the Laser Rifle is still the best rifle to use day-to-day, the T21 will simply remain as your "secondary" weapon to blast the hell out of highly armored targets. No profession gets a "perfect" weapon to use all the time at Novice...they all get speciality, niche weapons that are good in certain situations.
Take a look through the certs of the other professions, take a look at the weapons and their stats, and you will see that they don't get their "uber" weapon at Novice XYZ, but usually at Expert or Master of their parent Marksman or Brawler skill. For Pistoleers, the DX2 owns vs. Acid vulnerable mobs...for Swordsmen, they use their Power Hammers against Blast vulnerable mobs, etc. etc. etc.
The T21 is there for the Rifleman to cap heavily-armored foes...in essence, you are the sniper that hits that perfect "flaw" in the armor, and cause the whole thing to collapse. Instead of focusing on making the T21 the perfect weapon to use all the time, focus on the fact that with AP 3, the T21 is the perfect weapon TO TAKE DOWN HEAVILY ARMORED TARGETS.
Raising it to AP3 doesn't even cover the gap between the T21 and the Laser Rifle for a LOT of reasons. The Post-Super-Nerf "Oh here's a cookie, feel better?"* was a very commonly used Funcom tactic... it leads to the dark side.
*cough*
AP3
Min 80-115
Max 200-375
Spd 6.5-10.5
Current(High) HAM Costs
-70@0m, -20@50m, +10@64m
*cough* *cough*
*(What they'd do is totally nerf the crap out of something one day, and come back and give something very minor back and the crowds would rejoice thinking they'd been given a gift. Before long, people go, "Hey.. wait a sec...")
DToxWeaponsInc wrote:
**edit**...didn't anyone here conceive that the T21 was grotesquely overpowered once the AP3 multiplier AND the specials multiplier were taken into consideration, on top of the insane base damage? *THAT* was what they were trying to fix.
The damage, as it is now, is perfect IF the T21 had AP3. With AP3, the Laser Rifle is still the best rifle to use day-to-day, the T21 will simply remain as your "secondary" weapon to blast the hell out of highly armored targets. No profession gets a "perfect" weapon to use all the time at Novice...they all get speciality, niche weapons that are good in certain situations.
Take a look through the certs of the other professions, take a look at the weapons and their stats, and you will see that they don't get their "uber" weapon at Novice XYZ, but usually at Expert or Master of their parent Marksman or Brawler skill. For Pistoleers, the DX2 owns vs. Acid vulnerable mobs...for Swordsmen, they use their Power Hammers against Blast vulnerable mobs, etc. etc. etc.
The T21 is there for the Rifleman to cap heavily-armored foes...in essence, you are the sniper that hits that perfect "flaw" in the armor, and cause the whole thing to collapse. Instead of focusing on making the T21 the perfect weapon to use all the time, focus on the fact that with AP 3, the T21 is the perfect weapon TO TAKE DOWN HEAVILY ARMORED TARGETS.
You'll notice in my post I did not ask for more max damage, although I do think the min could do with a 20% boost. I agree the original T21 with AP3 was slightly overpowered I do not think it was as overpowered as some people would have us believe.
I think you get far too many weapons from getting marksman skills and not enough from getting rifleman skills. It would be nice if there were more guns available so our best gun wasn't at novice but that is a problem for another day.