Rifleman Archive
Thread: So they want us to be snipers...
Waste93 wrote:
Easy-Exanip wrote:
Some what correct. obviously using specials takes away from HAM. Now if you are saying you are special because of this, well spare us all, when I use legshot, a targeted pool shot , I use quiet alot of HAM and alot from the blue bar.
The accuracy is the real problem, buff's help everyone, at point blank range you have +90 to hit. So against all but a few classes you will pretty much just blow them away. This +90 to hit against classes that have low ranged defense, like almost all of them, are dead at the point blank range. This isprobably why we see alot of fencers and why other riflemen are hard to hit up close. If your argument is that rifleman should be able to kill like that at close range, then try and sell that to any brawler, they cant hit your targeted pool at 60m can they. So what gives, what makes rifles so special? You have good defense, and your offense is really good. I think riflemen is broken, ranged defense is more important than any defense vs XXX. Out of the all the ranged fighting professions, you have the best defense. Best offense + best defense = best shooting class. Dont worry the dev's see this and I am sure they will make the appropriate changes.
Best defense? Here is a comparrison for a prior post. Some of it may have changed so feel free to correct any errors.
Pistol:
+105 Dodge
+7 Ranged Defense
+45 Melee Defense
+40 Dvs Stun
+40 Dvs Blind
+40 Dvs Dizzy
+50 Dvs Knockdown
+20 Dvs Posture Change
Carbine:
+105 Counter Attack
+27 Ranged Defense
+0 Melee Defense
+25 Dvs Intimidate
+15 Dvs Knockdown
Rifle:
+80 Block
+72 Ranged Defense
+45 Melee Defense
+10 Dvs Blind
+10 Dvs Dizzy
+30 Dvs Posture Change
+10 Dvs Stun
Yes rifle does have some good defenses. Better than the carbineer obviously. Best ranged defense. But their melee is the same as pistol and their status change bonuses are lower than pistol.
I don't think ranged defense is the most important. Maybe in PvP where most people use ranged attacks. But there are many MOBs that are melee. So melee defense is also important.
Correct the status defenses of pistoleer are much better than a rifleman, but counterattack, dodge and block are second chance defenses and are tied into how well your opponent hits you! Rifleman have it easy! Look at the numbers, if block was working properly for you guys, then look out. Defense versus the state effects is helpfull and makes pistoleer a good anti brawler class, but this is thier specialty. What my original intet is to communicate that a rifleman at point blank, with +90 accuracy and the pistoleer's +7 ranged defense, will lead to that rifleman beating a pistoleer in his strongest area ,up close. This should be considered the normal? I would hope not, down right horrible is what I am saying.Unless you have a good amount of ranged defense, even up close, riflemen will still be able to hit you. Lets take it in reverse, rifleman at 54m vs pistoleer, the rifleman will have his 87 ranged defense against a pistol master, a pistol in some cases will have negative modifiers to hit just like a rifleman, when not in the correct range band for that particular weapon. So back to the If you cant be hit, you will take 0 damage. A pistoleer will be able to hit the rifleman at the 54m, but his damage per second is going to drop asHe can not hit the rifleman every time outside his best range band. Lets look at it the other way, if you have no ranged defense, the rifleman will hit you in every range band. So classes that have no ranged defense do not reduce the damage per second of a rifleman at any range. So this why we see alot of fencers and other rifleman, they can reduce the damage of other rifleman are doing to them at the riflemans "odd ranges".
Hons-Isi wrote:
Sorry but your wrong. Carbines do have less stopping power than rifles. Although the M4 and M16 use the same round (223) they do NOT have the same stopping power for the simple reason of barrel length. In firing a projectile such as a rifle round barrel length is directly related to a projectiles maximum velocity, and the projectiles velocity is directly related to the force with which the round hits, or it's stopping power. A faster traveling bullet is going to cause more damage. The reason behind this being a compression issue. The longer barrel is going to provide a longer period of compression for the still burning gas which is propelling the bullet. A shorter barrel will disperse the gas sooner. This all meaning that a longer barrel is going to provide longer compression which in turn greater velocity.... i think you know where this is going.
Actually it is more complicated than that. Barrel length mainly effects accuracy. Longer barrels tend to stabilize the projectile more. But it also increases drag on the bullet since it is rubbing against the hard metal of the barrel.
Also a higher velovity bullet does not always translate to more damage. The reason being a higher velocity also has a greater chance of completely penetrating the target. That means it is not transfering all of its kinetic energy to the target. The transfer of energy to the target is also part of the damage equation.
Also there is such a thing as having to long of a barrel. If the barrel is to long the amount of drag created outweighs the advantages of gas expansion. Also gas expansion will peak at a certain length. This is actually why we have the word canon. The canon was actually just a class of artillery peices used by the British. It was assumed that longer barrels means greater power and longer range. When they found this was not the case the best length vs power and range were those in the canon class. So that became the standard and we ended up with the word canon.
But another thing to factor is that most of the weapon we are talking about are energy weapons. Other than the Tusken there is no ballistic weapon as we know them today really. Well maybe the slugthrower carbine and pistol. But for energy weapons it will be different. Velocity isn't a determining factor. Its energy. If I fire 100 joules at a target it doesn't matter from what it was fired. It will do the same damage. The difference between rifle, carbine, and pistol becomes one of how much energy they can output in a burst. Which is dependent solely on stored energy and the capacity to release it.
Easy-Exanip wrote:
Correct the status defenses of pistoleer are much better than a rifleman, but counterattack, dodge and block are second chance defenses and are tied into how well your opponent hits you! Rifleman have it easy! Look at the numbers, if block was working properly for you guys, then look out. Defense versus the state effects is helpfull and makes pistoleer a good anti brawler class, but this is thier specialty. What my original intet is to communicate that a rifleman at point blank, with +90 accuracy and the pistoleer's +7 ranged defense, will lead to that rifleman beating a pistoleer in his strongest area ,up close. This should be considered the normal? I would hope not, down right horrible is what I am saying.Unless you have a good amount of ranged defense, even up close, riflemen will still be able to hit you. Lets take it in reverse, rifleman at 54m vs pistoleer, the rifleman will have his 87 ranged defense against a pistol master, a pistol in some cases will have negative modifiers to hit just like a rifleman, when not in the correct range band for that particular weapon. So back to the If you cant be hit, you will take 0 damage. A pistoleer will be able to hit the rifleman at the 54m, but his damage per second is going to drop asHe can not hit the rifleman every time outside his best range band. Lets look at it the other way, if you have no ranged defense, the rifleman will hit you in every range band. So classes that have no ranged defense do not reduce the damage per second of a rifleman at any range. So this why we see alot of fencers and other rifleman, they can reduce the damage of other rifleman are doing to them at the riflemans "odd ranges".
Someone did a recent test with Block. It appears to work most often when attacked my melee professions. Which makes sense. It also only reduces damage and you still take the status change if there is one. Dodge is just that. You avoid damage and status effect.
As for Pistoleer vs Rifleman up close. Remember the circular balance. As you said the Pistoleer is anit-melee. Not anti-Rifle. So the Rifle will have advantages over the Pistol. Yes even at close range somewhat. But don't forget that the Pistoleer also has a close range KD which can badly hurt the Rifleman with no KD defense. The anit-Rifle is suppose to be the Carabineer and BH(ranged) and probably the TKA (melee).
In circular balance the Rifle is suppose to usually defeat the Pistol. Lets say its 80% for ideal situation for the Rifle. But by the Pistol closing he can lower those chances, but still not tilt them in his favor. I know people hate that part. But the same would go for a Carbine vs Rifle. Carbine 80% but the Rifle should be able to lower the odds but maybe not tilt them in his favor. Same way all down the line. Of course there will be some matchups where you could tilt the odds. Lets say TKA vs Rifle. If the Rifle can keep them away the odds are in his favor, in the range closes it should tilt to the TKA.
Waste93 wrote:
Easy-Exanip wrote:
Correct the status defenses of pistoleer are much better than a rifleman, but counterattack, dodge and block are second chance defenses and are tied into how well your opponent hits you! Rifleman have it easy! Look at the numbers, if block was working properly for you guys, then look out. Defense versus the state effects is helpfull and makes pistoleer a good anti brawler class, but this is thier specialty. What my original intet is to communicate that a rifleman at point blank, with +90 accuracy and the pistoleer's +7 ranged defense, will lead to that rifleman beating a pistoleer in his strongest area ,up close. This should be considered the normal? I would hope not, down right horrible is what I am saying.Unless you have a good amount of ranged defense, even up close, riflemen will still be able to hit you. Lets take it in reverse, rifleman at 54m vs pistoleer, the rifleman will have his 87 ranged defense against a pistol master, a pistol in some cases will have negative modifiers to hit just like a rifleman, when not in the correct range band for that particular weapon. So back to the If you cant be hit, you will take 0 damage. A pistoleer will be able to hit the rifleman at the 54m, but his damage per second is going to drop asHe can not hit the rifleman every time outside his best range band. Lets look at it the other way, if you have no ranged defense, the rifleman will hit you in every range band. So classes that have no ranged defense do not reduce the damage per second of a rifleman at any range. So this why we see alot of fencers and other rifleman, they can reduce the damage of other rifleman are doing to them at the riflemans "odd ranges".
Someone did a recent test with Block. It appears to work most often when attacked my melee professions. Which makes sense. It also only reduces damage and you still take the status change if there is one. Dodge is just that. You avoid damage and status effect.
As for Pistoleer vs Rifleman up close. Remember the circular balance. As you said the Pistoleer is anit-melee. Not anti-Rifle. So the Rifle will have advantages over the Pistol. Yes even at close range somewhat. But don't forget that the Pistoleer also has a close range KD which can badly hurt the Rifleman with no KD defense. The anit-Rifle is suppose to be the Carabineer and BH(ranged) and probably the TKA (melee).
In circular balance the Rifle is suppose to usually defeat the Pistol. Lets say its 80% for ideal situation for the Rifle. But by the Pistol closing he can lower those chances, but still not tilt them in his favor. I know people hate that part. But the same would go for a Carbine vs Rifle. Carbine 80% but the Rifle should be able to lower the odds but maybe not tilt them in his favor. Same way all down the line. Of course there will be some matchups where you could tilt the odds. Lets say TKA vs Rifle. If the Rifle can keep them away the odds are in his favor, in the range closes it should tilt to the TKA.
I appreciate this debate, and I hope some thing good does come of this.
Back to business.
The circular balance issue... Pistols should be at a disadvantage when trying to fight a rifleman at range, but when riflemen enter into the melee area they should be penalized, +90 at melee ranged is to good. Right now they do have some weakness to knockdown and alot of other nasty melee attacks which partial affects how well they react in these close up situations. Again your 80/20 rule seems fair and logical, but this is really not the case. I am stating that up close you don not miss unless your target has ranged defense modifiers. This is a truth, +90 is too much at point blank. This plus 90 to hit at point blank means that some one with a ranged defense of 87 would be real tough to hit. Some one with +7 ranged defense would still end up getting blasted into oblivion. So the real issue is that out of the ranged classes not one of them has enough ranged defense to counter this accuracy at short/ pointblank ranges. And this upholds a truth that only a rifleman can defeat another rifleman. There is no 80/20, only 95/5.
Case in point, my buddy Uther is a fencer/swordsman, at point blank snipershots miss him while he is incapped! Myself being a carbineer I always get sniper'd, no miss ,just a one way directticket to the cloneing tube. So the only classes that have a shot at beating a rifleman are ones with at least 80 ranged defense.
Another case, I am ambushing you guys here so look out, I am a carbineer, with ranged support 4 , my ranged defense is like 33. I take a thunder cloud drink (+23 ranged defense), I am now at 56. I am also a squad leader, +25 ranged defense , now I am at 81 ranged defense. Holy smokes what a deference. Riflemen at point blank are at a disadvantage and my counter attack goes like mad. They have a hard time hitting me at the close ranges and even the snipershot misses. So rifleman cant stand right next to me anymore, and yes it takes them by suprise. I demonstrate this show how important ranged defense really is.
Lets talk about my buddy Uther, fencer boywonder, With my squadleader he has a ranged defense of 150, squadleader takes him over the cap of 125. The one afternoon he took 45 master headshots before incap. and by that time he still did not get death blowed, the sniper shot missed him, and after that ,the rifleman got taken out.
Ranged defense is THE most IMPORTANT defense skill.
2nd Lieutenant, Republic Forces
"The Lady of Dathomir"
(Hoping to soon end her SWG leave of absence
Reb_Archer wrote:
Best Rifle Tree Title....
Assassin =D
SPACE, GCW, PvP, PvE, DWB runs 
Easy-Exanip wrote:
I appreciate this debate, and I hope some thing good does come of this.
Back to business.
The circular balance issue... Pistols should be at a disadvantage when trying to fight a rifleman at range, but when riflemen enter into the melee area they should be penalized, +90 at melee ranged is to good. Right now they do have some weakness to knockdown and alot of other nasty melee attacks which partial affects how well they react in these close up situations. Again your 80/20 rule seems fair and logical, but this is really not the case. I am stating that up close you don not miss unless your target has ranged defense modifiers. This is a truth, +90 is too much at point blank. This plus 90 to hit at point blank means that some one with a ranged defense of 87 would be real tough to hit. Some one with +7 ranged defense would still end up getting blasted into oblivion. So the real issue is that out of the ranged classes not one of them has enough ranged defense to counter this accuracy at short/ pointblank ranges. And this upholds a truth that only a rifleman can defeat another rifleman. There is no 80/20, only 95/5.
Remember that I said 80/20 ideal. But even as you get closer the Pistoleer can lower the odds, but not tilt them in his favor. So lets say in this matchup the odds, even with all things favoring the Pistol, it may only drop to 60/40. But it still favors the Rifelman in this matchup.
Case in point, my buddy Uther is a fencer/swordsman, at point blank snipershots miss him while he is incapped! Myself being a carbineer I always get sniper'd, no miss ,just a one way directticket to the cloneing tube. So the only classes that have a shot at beating a rifleman are ones with at least 80 ranged defense.
I've seen something like that happen. First time I used SniperShot in combat I got the message the person Dodged it. Yet it stillDB'd them. It was rather weird and appears that defenses are still in effect even when incapped. That would be a bug that needs to be fixed.
Another case, I am ambushing you guys here so look out, I am a carbineer, with ranged support 4 , my ranged defense is like 33. I take a thunder cloud drink (+23 ranged defense), I am now at 56. I am also a squad leader, +25 ranged defense , now I am at 81 ranged defense. Holy smokes what a deference. Riflemen at point blank are at a disadvantage and my counter attack goes like mad. They have a hard time hitting me at the close ranges and even the snipershot misses. So rifleman cant stand right next to me anymore, and yes it takes them by suprise. I demonstrate this show how important ranged defense really is.
Also remember that I've described the Carabineer as the anti-Rifleman. So yes you have done everything in your favor and should come out on top.
Lets talk about my buddy Uther, fencer boywonder, With my squadleader he has a ranged defense of 150, squadleader takes him over the cap of 125. The one afternoon he took 45 master headshots before incap. and by that time he still did not get death blowed, the sniper shot missed him, and after that ,the rifleman got taken out.
I assume you mean someone shot at him 45 times before he incapped. Not that he actually was hit 45 times by headshot.
Ranged defense is THE most IMPORTANT defense skill.
Only if fighting a ranged. If fighting ANY melee it isn't relevant. Your +125 ranged defense means nothing if the person is next to you hitting you with a sword. Lots of MOBs are melee. Also in PvP than can be an issue. In urban fighting the ranges can typically start off shorter than out in the open. This favors the melee professions since they have less of a distance to close before engaging. Once the close your defense vs ranged is worthless.
It's just like your comment about dps being zero if you can't be hit. Again your ranged defense may as well be zero if you are being attacked by melee.
Waste93 wrote:
Easy-Exanip wrote:
I appreciate this debate, and I hope some thing good does come of this.
Back to business.
The circular balance issue... Pistols should be at a disadvantage when trying to fight a rifleman at range, but when riflemen enter into the melee area they should be penalized, +90 at melee ranged is to good. Right now they do have some weakness to knockdown and alot of other nasty melee attacks which partial affects how well they react in these close up situations. Again your 80/20 rule seems fair and logical, but this is really not the case. I am stating that up close you don not miss unless your target has ranged defense modifiers. This is a truth, +90 is too much at point blank. This plus 90 to hit at point blank means that some one with a ranged defense of 87 would be real tough to hit. Some one with +7 ranged defense would still end up getting blasted into oblivion. So the real issue is that out of the ranged classes not one of them has enough ranged defense to counter this accuracy at short/ pointblank ranges. And this upholds a truth that only a rifleman can defeat another rifleman. There is no 80/20, only 95/5.
Remember that I said 80/20 ideal. But even as you get closer the Pistoleer can lower the odds, but not tilt them in his favor. So lets say in this matchup the odds, even with all things favoring the Pistol, it may only drop to 60/40. But it still favors the Rifelman in this matchup.
Case in point, my buddy Uther is a fencer/swordsman, at point blank snipershots miss him while he is incapped! Myself being a carbineer I always get sniper'd, no miss ,just a one way directticket to the cloneing tube. So the only classes that have a shot at beating a rifleman are ones with at least 80 ranged defense.
I've seen something like that happen. First time I used SniperShot in combat I got the message the person Dodged it. Yet it stillDB'd them. It was rather weird and appears that defenses are still in effect even when incapped. That would be a bug that needs to be fixed.
Another case, I am ambushing you guys here so look out, I am a carbineer, with ranged support 4 , my ranged defense is like 33. I take a thunder cloud drink (+23 ranged defense), I am now at 56. I am also a squad leader, +25 ranged defense , now I am at 81 ranged defense. Holy smokes what a deference. Riflemen at point blank are at a disadvantage and my counter attack goes like mad. They have a hard time hitting me at the close ranges and even the snipershot misses. So rifleman cant stand right next to me anymore, and yes it takes them by suprise. I demonstrate this show how important ranged defense really is.
Also remember that I've described the Carabineer as the anti-Rifleman. So yes you have done everything in your favor and should come out on top.
Lets talk about my buddy Uther, fencer boywonder, With my squadleader he has a ranged defense of 150, squadleader takes him over the cap of 125. The one afternoon he took 45 master headshots before incap. and by that time he still did not get death blowed, the sniper shot missed him, and after that ,the rifleman got taken out.
I assume you mean someone shot at him 45 times before he incapped. Not that he actually was hit 45 times by headshot.
Ranged defense is THE most IMPORTANT defense skill.
Only if fighting a ranged. If fighting ANY melee it isn't relevant. Your +125 ranged defense means nothing if the person is next to you hitting you with a sword. Lots of MOBs are melee. Also in PvP than can be an issue. In urban fighting the ranges can typically start off shorter than out in the open. This favors the melee professions since they have less of a distance to close before engaging. Once the close your defense vs ranged is worthless.
It's just like your comment about dps being zero if you can't be hit. Again your ranged defense may as well be zero if you are being attacked by melee.
Ok yes it still be slanted towards the rifleman. no problems with this. City figthing does tend to favor the melee fighter. But lets look at it this way, what melee classes have alot of ranged defense? Fencer is real good , tka gives like 50 ranged defense, swordsman gives like 20. Unless these brawlers get close enough, which is possible, you will cream them because brawlers have no ranged midigation. I am not saying rifleman can not loose, because they can. The problem of ranged defense I think still rears its head here. Without alot of ranged -d , most classes cannot slow the damage down.
Uther was fired on 45 times, he was buffed to 2500 mind, with no helmet. Yea it is funny how these defenses are still functioning even while incapped.
I am just saying that you have to have a minimum ranged defense to prevent a rifleman from getting up close and giving you the business. Try it. Fight a fencer, then try fighting a swordsman, up close.
Easy-Exanip wrote:
I am just saying that you have to have a minimum ranged defense to prevent a rifleman from getting up close and giving you the business. Try it. Fight a fencer, then try fighting a swordsman, up close.
This wasn't a problem back when the 2.5x modifier applied while holding a rifle. I don't mean to say that it should neccessarily be brought back same as it was, but why on earth would a Rifleman think it'salright to shoot at any melee class at point-blank range? Because they can get away with it. That, in my opinion, is in some need of change. We need more incentive to either kite or switch to a closer range class (for those that have one) or anything besides just standing there.
Slow us down! All I ever see is "when you reach master, speed doesnt matter" this shouldnt be the case. What it should be is that we can one or two hit kill things from long range, but if they get to us then were screwed.
so the next step is increase the range modifer. Let us shoot a little farther than pistols (like 15 meters) but have us miss like 70% of the time from point blank.
I dont know about HAM costs but from what I've heard they should be left about as is. You shouldnt have to unload 8 shots into most things to kill them, and if your trying to take down something that takes more than 8 shots then it should be hard.
Finally, to make all of these a little more balanced, I think damage should be increased so we dont have to shoot people a **edit**load of times to kill them. Snipers dont have to do that.
To make Riflemen snipers would require a couple changes.
First if you are going to slow down the firing rate you will also have to greatly increase the range. 64m is not sniper range. They wouldn't even use a scope for those ranges.
Secondly we would have to greatly increase our damage. The snipers motto is "one shot, one kill". Though one shot kills is not something the Devs want.
Thirdly we would have to get rid of all our AoE attacks. Snipers don't spray fire. Hence no AoE attack.
Which is why most Riflemen realize that though we may want to be snipers, it is not possible.
Message Edited by Waste93 on 05-08-2004 12:53 PM