Rifleman Archive
Thread: -=Rifleman semi-bi-weekly state of the profession address=- June 20 2005
Another added suggestion.. would be to suggest a ranged deathblow. I know people cry about this.. but I would rather have the same timer on it as the regular deathblow, than to have to triple incap every player in PvP because it takes to long to run to them. People think Riflemen are griefing, but for the most part it would just be stupid to run up to a melee player that will just get up and slice me down. Anyways, my .02.. good luck avoiding the nerf bat.
-Fitzhume
Fitzhume wrote:
I think these are good ideas, but I think that we should just ask them to not allow Riflemen to use cybernetic ranged arms..
They can't really do that though, since it removes the point of riflemen. Remove their ability to use the arms, and the range advantage of rifles will be gone since carbineers can reach 65m with the arms.
They should just remove the arms completely and give the 15 extra meters to all ranged professions as standard.
Vicotnik wrote:
Fitzhume wrote:
I think these are good ideas, but I think that we should just ask them to not allow Riflemen to use cybernetic ranged arms..
They can't really do that though, since it removes the point of riflemen. Remove their ability to use the arms, and the range advantage of rifles will be gone since carbineers can reach 65m with the arms.
They should just remove the arms completely and give the 15 extra meters to all ranged professions as standard.
lol NO NO. They want there to be a drawback for getting that extra range, and the draw back are the two huge armor holes you now have if your wearing the ranged arms.
valetman wrote:
So, I have a chance for 2 at most snipershots before my target is within my min range in PvE, even using kneecap shot.
Then all I have is headshot and startle shot.
that is 2 specials I can use, from a whole 140 points or whatever it is profession.(Im a CH, so I have no other specials to call on)
That doesnt seem very good, given that headshot is less powerful than crit or leg shot, and those professions also get states and area attacks. they are also not rated 5 in offence.
I am....
this is one of the problems i've had with the 'new' rifleman all along. When your only offensive profession is rifleman, you are not nearly as effective as others. we have 3 specials that can be used while not in the prone, and from my experience, only headshot is worth using.
rifleman has been nearly pushed into a combat support role. becuase our main skills and specials are so restricted. and now with auto target, cover and conceal have no use in PvP.
we are not nukers. infact, i'd say we are probably outclassed bye bountyhunters when it comes to damage. they can shoot about 3x faster than us and in those three hits, they outdamage my one hit. and sniper shot is only good for 'frontloading' damage, because i could get off 2 headshots in the time it takes to use one sniper shot.
im sorry, but these people that keep crying 'nerf rifleman' have no idea what they are talking about. they need to nerf non rifleman from using laser rifles. because i garuntee that is what most people are actually seeing. non master rifleman using laser rifles.
SickSix wrote:
valetman wrote:
So, I have a chance for 2 at most snipershots before my target is within my min range in PvE, even using kneecap shot.
Then all I have is headshot and startle shot.
that is 2 specials I can use, from a whole 140 points or whatever it is profession.(Im a CH, so I have no other specials to call on)
That doesnt seem very good, given that headshot is less powerful than crit or leg shot, and those professions also get states and area attacks. they are also not rated 5 in offence.
I am....
this is one of the problems i've had with the 'new' rifleman all along. When your only offensive profession is rifleman, you are not nearly as effective as others. we have 3 specials that can be used while not in the prone, and from my experience, only headshot is worth using.
rifleman has been nearly pushed into a combat support role. becuase our main skills and specials are so restricted. and now with auto target, cover and conceal have no use in PvP.
we are not nukers. infact, i'd say we are probably outclassed bye bountyhunters when it comes to damage. they can shoot about 3x faster than us and in those three hits, they outdamage my one hit. and sniper shot is only good for 'frontloading' damage, because i could get off 2 headshots in the time it takes to use one sniper shot.
im sorry, but these people that keep crying 'nerf rifleman' have no idea what they are talking about. they need to nerf non rifleman from using laser rifles. because i garuntee that is what most people are actually seeing. non master rifleman using laser rifles.
You're right rifleman as a stand alone profession isn't really that great. But neither is any other profession. Rifleman becomes powerful when it's mixed with other skills. My alt is a MBH/MR/4xx4 pistols. I can go prone and hit snipershot, stoppingshot, adv criticlestrike, adv headshot, snipershot all before my root wears off, and ultimately unloading a massive amount of damage fairly quickly.
And you are right, a pistoleer/bh can shoot 3 shots in the amount of time it takes for a single snipershot, making it a much higher DPS, but what you also have to keep in mind is that it comes at a much higher action cost since you now have to take thier action cost and multiply it by 3 since it took them 3 shots to match our one. One snipershot hits for about 4100 damage for me (before armor is calculated in), and with a pistol I can use headshot/adv critical at about 1500 damage every shot (before armor is calculated). So it matches up to roughly 3:1 ratio. However my rifle has a SAC of 85, and even with a SAC pup pistol will have 49 SAC (best case scenario). 49x3 = 147 SAC vs my 85 SAC from my rifle, not to mention the modifiers that would come into play here as well increasing the distance between them even further.
So ultimately we've determined that it takes you roughly 3x the shots with a pistol, which is costing you roughly 2x the action, and taking roughly the same amount of time to apply the same general damage. That being said there are times when it's more beneficial to be faster, and there are times when it's better to hit harder per shot. Alot will depend on your fightning styles but I find it much easier to catch Jedi off guard when my first hit (sniper shot with my rifle) drops half their health, it also works well if I can catch them while they are grinding as I can potentially incap them in a single hit lol.
So give turrets proper range also, end of problem.
Kolibrilator wrote:
no extra range please, one thing I hate is people taking out turrets from copmplete safety, regasrdless of prof. And i guess other people seeing someone using rifle doing that creates rifleman hate
Vicotnik wrote:
Fitzhume wrote:
I think these are good ideas, but I think that we should just ask them to not allow Riflemen to use cybernetic ranged arms..
They can't really do that though, since it removes the point of riflemen. Remove their ability to use the arms, and the range advantage of rifles will be gone since carbineers can reach 65m with the arms.
They should just remove the arms completely and give the 15 extra meters to all ranged professions as standard.
I say remove the +range mod and add accuracy, speed, aim or something like that
jason67 wrote:
You're right rifleman as a stand alone profession isn't really that great. But neither is any other profession. Rifleman becomes powerful when it's mixed with other skills. My alt is a MBH/MR/4xx4 pistols. I can go prone and hit snipershot, stoppingshot, adv criticlestrike, adv headshot, snipershot all before my root wears off, and ultimately unloading a massive amount of damage fairly quickly.
See, here is where I disagree completely.
The simple fact of things is that a rifleman does not become a true "nuker" until he picks up another profession, whereas a pistoleer still can do their crowd control thing without picking up another profession, a doctor can heal rather good without picking up another profession and so forth.
The "roles" the developers decided/made upfor the professions in the CU does not work for all professions. The offense of riflemenis not a "5" without another profession, while a pistoleer is still a "4" for crowd control no matter if they have another profession or not.
Vicotnik wrote:
jason67 wrote:
You're right rifleman as a stand alone profession isn't really that great. But neither is any other profession. Rifleman becomes powerful when it's mixed with other skills. My alt is a MBH/MR/4xx4 pistols. I can go prone and hit snipershot, stoppingshot, adv criticlestrike, adv headshot, snipershot all before my root wears off, and ultimately unloading a massive amount of damage fairly quickly.
See, here is where I disagree completely.
The simple fact of things is that a rifleman does not become a true "nuker" until he picks up another profession, whereas a pistoleer still can do their crowd control thing without picking up another profession, a doctor can heal rather good without picking up another profession and so forth.
The "roles" the developers decided/made upfor the professions in the CU does not work for all professions. The offense of riflemenis not a "5" without another profession, while a pistoleer is still a "4" for crowd control no matter if they have another profession or not.
QFE
exactly. other professions can do better unstacked than a unstacked rifleman. our offense is not '5' unless stacked with someone elses speed, accuracy and specials.
As for nerfs, no. Tradeoffs, maybe. If they want to implement a min range, then I'd ask for a few things.
1. Nobody can fire at our range.
2. Every shot from a MR does an armor break attack (you think a T-21 can't punch through whatever they're wearing?).
3. Damage increase such that we can kill anything in the time span it takes to run from 65m to min range (35m or whatever it is). Everyone else is expected to kill in their range without kiting. We should too. (Note that with the current set up, we would kill in one or two hits).
That is what in my mind constitutes a lack of defense, a lack of the ability to kill things close, and the ability to hold them at any range. That would be a fair tradeoff, and I can guarantee you that you'll never see it.
Message Edited by The_Great_Destroyer on 06-22-2005 12:01 PM
valetman wrote:
As a rifleman CH I find it very hard to be effectice as a Rifleman already.
I have no extra mods, no skill dabbling for roots or other high damage shots, my pets cannot tank for me so EVERYTHING I shoot at ends up in melee distance.
A minimum range renders not only every single cave and dungeon out of bounds to me, but basically prevents me from going into combat solo.
Indeed, even in a group , because aggro management is so broken, un;ess the tank is spamming taunt permanently, I end up in melee with anything regardless.As I only have sniper/startel/headshot and kneecap shot to play with as a rifleman (Conceal is useless to me,impossible to use in a group,in and dungeon or in combination with my other profession as pets make the cover fail), Id like someone to explain what I would be expected to do , what special I would be intended to use to keep the mob out of my minimum range.
if a min range is put in, rifles will HAVE to have a root attack to keep mobs from entering that minimum range.If not, the game will be simply unplayable for me.
I too am a Master Rifleman/Master Creature Handler and these changes would make the game unplayable for me.
The nerf cries are coming from the PVP community, I do not PVP. So I say to heck with them. Why should I syuffer and not be able to play just because someone else cries about rifles in PVP? For pete's sake go pick up a friggin rifle and use it already!
If Rifles get a minimum range then Pistols and Carbines should get a max range cap. Meaning that if something is more than 30m away from them their accuracy is reduced the same as rifles would be reduced at close range! After all that would only be fair.
I agree with several other posts here. Lots of good arguments. If they put this minimum range crap in place then I will have to give up my precious Bowcaster as a Wookiee and that is simply unacceptable. It is changes like this that make me start to look forward to other MMPORGS that are coming much as I hate to say it.
I love SWG but after all the nerfs to CH and Rifles, to be hit with even more is just simply wearing me out.
Have pistols at a 50% accuracy loss above 50m and an accuracy bonus at 35m.
Have Carbines pretty much be balanced all around. It would be tough to give them accuracy losses and bonuses because their effectiveness is good both ranged and close.
Have Rifles at a 50% accuracy loss below 35m and a bonus above 50m.
I don't like 75% losses or bonuses at all because it is more irritating than effective. After all it is a game and everyone likes to play a particular profession because they enjoy it. Puting in a full 75% rate of loss or bonus will just enrage the masses. 50% seems little but in the end it would actually work out. The DEV's seem to forget that this is actually supposed to be a fun game. They hear so many complaints because I don't think they really hear us as players as to wanting to have fun yet be balanced in the game.
Yes some bonuses and losses should exist but not so much that it causes players to be very disheartened with a profession that the DEV's feel they want so unique. Balance is hard to achieve with so many different types of professions and personally the DEV's try way to hard and fail way to many times by overcompinsating what they feel are needed changes. If you could take anything back to the DEV's Ackehece it would be to not be so drastic in their changes. The CU alone was so extremely drastic even in areas that didn't need to be that players are constantly wondering what's going to happen at the next turn. All that does is frustrate the players and make them feel that no consistency seems to ever be on the horizon. Please tell them to actually sit back and actually play the profession before they make incredibly stupid decisions like the rifleman minimum range thing before they do it.
We know for a fact that they don't because so many DEV's said at fan fest that they play non combatant professions and not the professions that they make these changes on. With that understanding it's no wonder we get some of the most hair brained ideas we've ever heard of passed onto us as paying and playing customers.
The correspondents of professions are here to relate the players ideas and suggestions; yet it appears that the DEV's feel that they are so much more intelligent than you all because of their lack of interest on yours and our suggestions. It almost appears that they become defensive if they are not the ones that come up with idea and choose to go with an off the wall idea that they come up with as opposed to the ideas of those that are extremely active in a particular profession. Basically I see an extreme lack of balance on the part of the DEV's with regards to their fixes.
Just a side note. If we notice each patch is never a balance of all professions. So many times they are jam packed with one particular profession that seems to be addressed with every patch. The DEV's need to take their CU balance to heart and show all of the professions a balance in the attention they recieve. I mean how many times do we have to see another Jedi balance till they get it right. It's getting really old to us that choose to not go that line of profession. All we see anymore is Jedi this and Jedi that. Well hello you have 35 other professions with people who are just as and even more dedicated to. The lack of attention and support these other professions receive is one of the biggest reasons that you have so many irrate and frustrated players.
The forums are supposed to be fun and a great discussion on how to be better at your profession. However because of the lack of attention they receive they become filled with players wondering why a specific shot is still not working, or why a feature of a profession that was implemented is now removed. These are the areas where customer service is extremely lacking. We all of a sudden have these things thrown in our faces and no explanation or reason is given to why this was either not taken care of or why this was changed. It's really a sign of disrespect to the profession correspondents when they seem just as shocked as the players with some of these changes.
The DEV's need to sit back and actually work with their customers. I felt even stronger this year at fan fest that our questions and concerns were not of interest to the DEV's with their lack of response and overall concern that was shown to us. I felt more than ever that we are really not viewed as having good ideas or suggestions. Yes I would admit that after having to hear the same arguments over and over by people that have nothing better to do than complain would take it's toll on you. However when some of us would actually say we enjoyed an aspect of the game and would like to see this or that to make our profession better, the DEV's seemed to blow us off and give a comment like "we'll look into that". I"m sure they will look into that; especially when you watched that not one DEV on the panel actually wrote anything down for a note on the suggestion you gave that they said they liked.
I didn't think this would actually be this long but I guess I got long winded today. lol Let me say that I love Star Wars itself. I really like the game but in so many ways I get frustrated with it. It's a game. I'm supposed to use the game as an outlet to real life. I'm supposed to find the game enjoyable yet challenging. In so many ways I do but in so many other ways I do not. Trying for hours to get a weapon is fun. Yet having to store that weapon on a wall in my house because I can't ever get another one is not. Being able to work as a group to accomplish a mission is fun. But being forced to actually have to have one or two Jedi to accomplish that mission is not fun. Don't deny that fact either. It's so true in so many cases that it cannot be ignored. The CU balance was needed to bring the game back down to reality, well game reality. But now the same balance needs to be upheld throught future updates and fixes. With the rate that we are going I forsee another need for a CU in another 2 to 3 years if the DEV's keep up these so called "fixes" that they push to live.
If I could give any suggestion to the DEV's it would be to look at the overall game as a whole before making so many harsh or rash decisions. This in itself would save not only their time and reduce their stress level but will bring the enjoyment of existing, past and future players to want to stay apart of Star Wars Galaxies for years to come.
When, pray tell, will MOBs pay attention to the three melee guys beating on them and stop automatically focusing on the Rifleman just because we do more damage in a single shot than others?
I get tired of every weapon being turned on me just because I use a rifle. I get tired of watching my health drop while the melee fighters pound away with impunity.
The only upside is that the Doctor permanently assigned to a Rifleman won't get aggro'd while keeping him alive.