Rifleman Archive
Thread: Rifleman issues/thoughts/concerns for the upcoming Correspondent's Summit
PsychoticChipmunk
Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:34 pm
#40
Feynan that is quite frankly impossible and would kill the class. The only time I have ever gone prone in a PvP battle was when I knew I was going to die anyway so being prone wasn't anymore suicidal then standing up. Even then that only happened after a half dozen zerg rushes from the cloner to help someone that survived longer then me. Going prone at 60 meters from an enemymeans we're dead before we can get the "your opponent is too close to attack in this posture" message. The only way we can be given anything similiar to a true snipers role is if they were to completely rework the engine so combat can exist more then 4 seconds away from each other, 2 while bursting. That simply won't happen so asking for it is wasting your breath and accepting changes putting us in that situation is begging for death.
We are grunts not assassins/snipers and the developers need to realize and accept that.
SirLightHeart
Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:51 am
#41
XaverriJade7 wrote:
Pathetic agrument. Prove to me DPS is 3x higher than anyone else. It is not. A person with just Rifleman will get destroyed by any melee class that knows what they're doing regardless of weapons and armor. A person with just basic weapions and armor is of little threat too. You need high-end equipment to compete in this game. Give me any class with the best equipment there is and you can take just Rifleman with basic equipment. You won't stand a chance. You really think Rifleman has the defense to stand up to anything without heavy buffs/armor? They don't. Why do I try? Why do I succeed in proving my points to people that don't know any better? Because I care. I care about our profession, about the other professions, and about the game. That's why. Excuse me if that offends you. Enjoy 'utterly destroying' any profession in the game as a Rifleman without any secondary profession and without armor and buffs(because either/or just doesn't cut it with this class).
SirLightHeart wrote:
XaverriJade7 wrote:
The imbalances are due to the poor standing of other classes, not due to us being 'overpowered' or 'imbalancing'. CMs were not keeping us in check. There are several classes that can beat us if people use their brains. You may not have said 'destroy', but that's definitely the impression left upon me. If you don't agree with fixing the other professions to balance things, what do you suggest?
SirLightHeart wrote:
XaverriJade7 wrote:
This part just really upset me- We are thinking about the future of the game. Our profession is a part of that too though. We do want the other professions fixed, but that means not nerfing ourselves to achieve some false sense of 'balance'. I don't even want to have to tell you to take your own advice, but that attitude of yours has got to go.
SirLightHeart wrote:
I mean come on, think about the future of the game and get over yourselves.
No sorry, I was a rifleman and I know the imbalances we are facing now that combat medic has been nerfed. Balance not destroy, I never said that.
Damage per second being 3x higher than any other profession through armor is balanced? From any range? While moving? Please. I agree other professions need some boosts but a person with JUST rifleman and basic weapons/armor will completely and utterly destroy any profession in the game. You can't argue that, I don't know why you'd even try.
Message Edited by XaverriJade7 on 08-12-2004 09:09 PM
LoL ok I said against any other profession without buffs/armor and basic weapons but whatever you say. Still waiting for you to justify the accuracy of a rifle at 1m.
SirLightHeart
Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:53 am
#42
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
SirLightHeart wrote:
XaverriJade7 wrote:
The imbalances are due to the poor standing of other classes, not due to us being 'overpowered' or 'imbalancing'. CMs were not keeping us in check. There are several classes that can beat us if people use their brains. You may not have said 'destroy', but that's definitely the impression left upon me. If you don't agree with fixing the other professions to balance things, what do you suggest?
SirLightHeart wrote:
XaverriJade7 wrote:
This part just really upset me- We are thinking about the future of the game. Our profession is a part of that too though. We do want the other professions fixed, but that means not nerfing ourselves to achieve some false sense of 'balance'. I don't even want to have to tell you to take your own advice, but that attitude of yours has got to go.
SirLightHeart wrote:
I mean come on, think about the future of the game and get over yourselves.
No sorry, I was a rifleman and I know the imbalances we are facing now that combat medic has been nerfed. Balance not destroy, I never said that.
Damage per second being 3x higher than any other profession through armor is balanced? From any range? While moving? Please. I agree other professions need some boosts but a person with JUST rifleman and basic weapons/armor will completely and utterly destroy any profession in the game. You can't argue that, I don't know why you'd even try.
There are other threads to discuss this (and where all of your points have already been debunked) rather then fill up our concerns page to be taken to the summit, by your correspondent no less. We have high pro's in the realm of DPS but huge weaknessess and cons in terms of longevity and defenses. That balances us.
If you never played rifleman at master without buffs then you don't understand what it is like to actually play a rifleman and if you have never seen a master rifleman unbuffed in any form of combat you can't comment on how "overpowering" we are. Buffs that negate any and all negative modifiers of anything imaginable in the game overpower us, overpower everything. Get rid of those and you bring sanity back to the game and things work out a lot better. Now back to the topic at hand if you would be so kind.
When did this become an argument of removing buffs from the game? Just wondering mr pro
Waste93
Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:08 am
#43
SirLight,
Please start a new thread if you wish to discuss this. This thread is so we can voice our concerns for the Correspondents Summit since we won't have a Corrpesondent there.
This thread is so we can communicate to Guruweaver and the other Correspondents that will be help out in this regard. Not to have yet another debate about 'nerf Riflemen'.
Kelkyen
Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:13 am
#44
When I joined the game just over a year ago, I started working on Rifles for my main combat profession.
I came to SWG from years of play in a sim twitch game (WWII Online) where getting shot is as deadly as in real life. MMORPG's suffer from the Dungeons & Dragons "powerlevel with massive hitpoints" problem, so combat is kinda farfetched compared to what is realistic, but I prefer realistic.
Rifles sucked back then...I shot slow, missed alot, died alot due to to the x2.5 damage vs melee, if my target moved or I moved I never hit and thus got no xp, and never got any loot because I tried to stay 64m away and other players got to the corpse first.
Currently at master...we shoot as fast as everyone else, don't miss much except for defense stackers and Jedi in PvP, there is no x2.5 damage for melee (yay!), we can move and still hit but not always, to get loot we still have to be on top of the corpse when it drops. Masters also can outdamage the Pistolliers and Carbineers, but not Commando.
The current power of melee in a gunfight is kinda odd. In a big PvP battle we can hang back and hope not to be noticed while we blast away. In a 1 on 1 melee can cross 64 meters in seconds, then at 20 meters I start getting hit, and end up on my back with a trip to the clone center coming soon after.
To make us snipers...Unless our range is increased to more than a kilometer (realistic sniper), or even 128 meters (realistic with the game engine) or everything moves slower, we can not be snipers. Perhaps if the radar is removed, or /takecover removes us from it, and /surpriseshot (which is broke) and /concealshot allowed us to shoot in PvP from hiding we could be snipers.
Pistols and Carbine should be better in close quarters fighting for getting the first shot, but nothing should be much diffrent for damage or rate of fire for Carbine, Pistol, or Rifle. In the real world...armies use rifles for range and accuracy, criminals use pistols because they are easily concealed, carbines are the inbetween.
Combat also lacks the "Star Warsy" feel. In the movies you see...shoot, miss, duck behind cover, shoot, hit, it's dead. Current combat is like EverQuest...shoot, hit, shoot, hit, shoot, hit, shoot, hit, (repeat for 30 seconds or so) shoot, hit, it's dead.
Oh, the Tuskin Rifle should be kinetic not energy.
Message Edited by Kelkyen on 08-13-2004 12:14 PM
Moosemillion
Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:52 pm
#45
Sorry about my earlier virtually monosyllabic response, as I had spent quite a while on it and the forums sucked it into a black hole, never to see the light of day again.....
I will be as brief as I can.
1) PVE vs PVP - I personally hunt creatures and NPCs about 99.7% of the time. It is my opinion, based on those I know and those I see, that this holds true for the majority of players. I do not know if there are any solid statistics, but I believe that PVP may make up 10% or less of total playtime across servers. Therefore I emplore any correspondant to express to the development team that no change should ever be made that takes away from the gameplay experience of PVE.
2) Range - Real rifles are not inaccurate at short range. Decreasing their accuracy at 5m is in my opinion is an error. However, at 0m I believe that accuracy should be near zero, but we should have something else to fall back on in these situations. Riflemen should also have greater range then any other profession. When prone or under take cover, a Novice Rifleman should extend maximum range to 70m, and at Master 85m. This will enablea great advantage to long range attacks, but as you would need to be prone and under cover (only to extend range) once your target closed the advantage would dissipate quickly. This range extension moves us closer to the envisiond Sniper class.
3) Melee - Riflemen should have one melee move, with two levels. This should take the form of some sort of rifle butt strike. It could only be used at point blank range. It should be a medium level attack at second level, something that is useful at defense but not something that anyone would use in PVP vs a TKM.
4) Weapons - Bowcasters should be leveled up for wookies, as it is one of the rare signature SW weapons in the game. I believe that the weapons that we have are appropriate and do not need any work. I would like to see the Berserker Rifle back in the game, and something that Rifleman can use. I also would like to see anything that is not useable by a Rifleman that has rifle in its name changed to another name.
5) Damage - Rifleman are not overpowered in my opinion, and there are numerous comprehensive analysis of this on these forums. In the combat revamp other professions will be equalized so that there is no percieved disparity. In terms of our mind attacks, the issue at hand is really that the mind pool is not currently healable, and that is only a short lived problem. Furthermore, Rifleman is not the only class with mind attacks.
6) Special Attacks - Suprise shot seems not to work well. Would prefer a Blind State Attack. Would also like to see a Health Attack and an Action Attack, much like TKM has. There is no reason why the highly accurate Rifleman should not be able to specifically target the head (mind) body (health) or legs (action). Would like a posture up and posture down attack.
7) Smugglers - While not immediately effecting Riflemen, it would be nice if a Master Smuggler could choose whether to do a speed slice or a damage slice for weapons (also choose for armor).
8) Speed - Rifles are not inherently slow weapons. Some of histories greatest marksman were able to get off 3 shots in a second or or so with manual loading rifles. Automatic rifles are capable of firing hundreds and hundreds of shots per second. In fact the fastest assault rifles are faster than any automatic pistol. There is no justification, in SW or in RL, for anyone to say that rifle speed should be capped at a slower speed than it currently is, and no evidence that a pistol should be faster than a rifle.
I'm sure I have more but its late and my mind grows weary.
Feynan
Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:01 am
#46
I don't think you read my posts, Psychotic.
You're right, if we're already engaged in combat and then go prone, we're dead. If we don't get to make the first move, we're dead. That is EXACTLY my point.
We need to surprise the enemy. If we're just running around and then run into some random overt, we're dead. In order to win we need to be prone BEFORE the target gets there, we need to be under cover so they get within 64m without knowing we're there, and then at that point we'll win 95-100% of the time. Basically, we need to trap them. If we trap them we'll win almost every time. If we don't have a "trap" set up when we run into them, we'll die almost every time. This is what a sniper does, he doesn't run into the middle of a giant enemy group, wave at the leader, shootrandomly and then run away. He sits and waits for the unsuspecting enemy to come to him, and when that opportune moment comes, the enemy leader is dead, no questio.
Oh, and you've only gone prone a couple of times while fighting because right now there's no reason to. Add in reasons to go prone, reasons that make a difference, and voila.
We'll still be very versatile here, it just means you need to be smart to be a Rifleman. Only chance we have of winning random 1v1 fights is to see someone on radar the moment they appear, and get under cover before they see you, which is (and should be) very hard to nearly impossible. In large GCW fights we'd be very good though; during defense we simply set up to the side and when the attacking force comes we can start dropping people really fast (though once we're discovered we're in trouble), while during attacks we simply hang at the back of the group (as a sniper should) and set up while your teammates distract the enemy's fire so that you can stay in range and start sniping people.
Message Edited by Feynan on 08-13-2004 03:06 PM
Towelie-LXIX
Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:06 am
#47
I agree with everything you've said, currently we're the only working ranged profession, carbineer is working up there, since they have gotten love a few publishes back, at least their specials mostly work now. Pistoleer needs some work, also carbineer needs some more defenses, etc. Pistoleer will be pretty well rounded once they have specials that work and mean something. Other than removing/reworking specials that are not used in rifle, everything is working well. The 2.5x to hit bonus is fine by me. The 2.5x damage modifier in the past was a bit over the top. Block seems to be broken/unuseful, would be nice if that did work, but comparatively speaking we're not too bad off at all. We really need no new weapons. I'd like a more powerful single target shot, but then again we're more about raw damage to groups, so it all balances out.
Waste93 wrote:
Gawzeera wrote:
Combines and Pistols are getting new guns in pub 10. will rifleman be getting any extra weapons added??
with the mind pool now becoming easier to heal does that mean we will do more damage to it, to compensate for the healing?
other than those 2 questions I cant really say anything that has'nt already been said by everyone else
Riflemen really don't need any other weapons right now. There are some professions that have very few weapons and they should get some attention before they need to add any to us. Especially the melee classes. We currently have 14 weapons. So we have the fourth most. Commando has the most but then again most of those are pretty worthless or broken. Pistoleers have one more weapon than us. Carbineer has four fewer.
So we can do without for a bit while the others are brought up to speed.
Waste93
Sat Aug 14, 2004 5:46 am
#48
Another idea.
Have secondary stats act like stats do in most RPG's. Have them increase/decrease things based on the stat.
For example.
Strength : Melee damage bonus
Constitution : HAM regenerationand resistance to poison/disesase
Quickness : Weapon speed bonus and movement speed
Stamina :Effects HAM costs on specials/abilites and duration of burst run
Focus : Ranged accuracy bonus and increased experimentation sucess
Willpower : Resistance to posture changes/state effects andcrafting failure rate
Or something along those lines. It would make stats more important than they presently are especially if they balance out the two buff systems.
If they go with something like this I would also suggest that the bonus only apply to the base stat and not to it's buffed state.
Most of these are combat related so some advantage for non-combat type acitivities would be nice here too. I've included a couple but it could probably use more for non-combat.
Edited to correct an error in Stamina statement
Message Edited by Waste93 on 08-14-2004 10:54 AM
XaverriJade7
Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:30 am
#49
This is kinda what I expected to see when I first installed SWG. I'd be thrilled to see this(or some other sensible version) implemented at any time
Waste93 wrote:
Another idea.
Have secondary stats act like stats do in most RPG's. Have them increase/decrease things based on the stat.
For example.
Strength : Melee damage bonus
Constitution : HAM regenerationand resistance to poison/disesase
Quickness : Weapon speed bonus and movement speed
Stamina : Lowers HAM costs on specials/abilites and duration of burst run
Focus : Ranged accuracy bonus and increased experimentation sucess
Willpower : Resistance to posture changes/state effects andcrafting failure rate
Or something along those lines. It would make stats more important than they presently are especially if they balance out the two buff systems.
If they go with something like this I would also suggest that the bonus only apply to the base stat and not to it's buffed state.
Most of these are combat related so some advantage for non-combat type acitivities would be nice here too. I've included a couple but it could probably use more for non-combat.
Message Edited by Waste93 on 08-14-2004 07:07 AM
Waste93
Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:35 am
#50
XaverriJade7 wrote:
This is kinda what I expected to see when I first installed SWG. I'd be thrilled to see this(or some other sensible version) implemented at any time
Same here. I think it would make for some more interesting characters and allow people to tweak to fit their character. Also give a reason for some of the high limits on stats for certain species.
Of course they would also have to fix the Human stat bug that has been going on for about 9 months or so now.
KardenTyrell
Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:30 pm
#51
That would be great, unless its extra calculations in bigger pvp battles will produce more lag. truelly customise oneself using those stats...*PING* ..........I just had another idea for the coresystem dynamic revamp prosal Ive been writing 
*scurries off*
*scurries off*
XaverriJade7
Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:00 am
#52
Waste93 wrote:
XaverriJade7 wrote:
This is kinda what I expected to see when I first installed SWG. I'd be thrilled to see this(or some other sensible version) implemented at any time
Same here. I think it would make for some more interesting characters and allow people to tweak to fit their character. Also give a reason for some of the high limits on stats for certain species.
Of course they would also have to fix the Human stat bug that has been going on for about 9 months or so now.
Yes, would make thing much more interesting. One thing about that 'bug': it has been stated(I believe by TH) that it is how it is intended to be(to reflect Humans' 'versatility').Obviously many species feel it isn't fair, so perhaps some adjusting is in order. But for now, it is exactly as the Devs designed.