Rifleman Archive
Thread: Rifleman issues/thoughts/concerns for the upcoming Correspondent's Summit
Waste93
Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:36 am
#27
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
Oh I thought of another issue that should be addressed.
Currently a master rifleman is as accurate at point blank as a master pistoleer. A master pistoleer is as accurate at extreme range as a master rifleman. Essentially there is no such thing as range beyond the melee edge where you can get lunged. They need to come up with a way to make pistols a lot less accurate as the range increases and vice versa for us rifles. Carbines seem alright since they should be the ones that hit at almost all ranges anyway. Don't fix 'em since they ain't broke...well in this regard anyway.
Good point. Though I'm not sure how they would really be able to do this. Presently the accuracy mods for Pistoleer, Carbineer, and Rifleman are all about the same once you factor in the mods in specials. Even if reduced, they are are in the +180 range, it probably still wouldn't drop it below the 95% to hit cap.
The problem is if they do drop it below the cap range then it's going to be almost impossible to hit any defense stacker since they cap at +125.
So if they reduced the accuracy mods they would also have to do the defense mods to keep everything in line.
Personally I don't have a problem with how it is now. Reason being that max range is 64m. I believe a Master Pistoleer (think best pistol shooters in the world) probably would be very accurate at that range. The range is to short. Which is why I've been calling it max range instead of using long or extreme range. 
I don't think of 64m as either long nor extreme.
Now if we were talking about 200m or so I would completely agree since pistols would be inaccurate even for a Masterover those kinds of ranges.
PsychoticChipmunk
Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:55 am
#28
True, and I don't have a problem with it either. However they keep talking about producing roles. Well a rifleman's role is more or less at the back end of the 64 meters and the pistoleer's is more or less at the front end fairly close to melee guys. (which is why thye have a hell of a lot better melee defense) If they want to balance out everything then this would/should be taken into consideration. If they can get it all to work without then more power to them...just tell everyone that accuracy is more or less the same at master so we quit getting that brought up in nerf posts.
The only way I can think of it is to have the range mods hurt you a hell of a lot more then currently so a pistol is weaker atmax ranges and "normal" up close. Hell maybe just have it bea hard 40 meters or further where the pistol accuracy cap is 100 accuracy so a guy at 41 meters and 60 meters is just as likely to not get hit.
Kinnison75
Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:11 pm
#29
I guess I will chime in...
When I first started this game and wanted to go up the rifle tree I used a bowcaster... but like the others said, once I could use a Laser rifle that was it. How can Chewie while standing fire a burst from his 'caster at a scout trooper speeding off on a bike. yet with supposadly same weapon and "Master skills" I have a hard enough time killing Savort before it decides to start munching on me. Bowcasters should be on par damage wise with a good laser rifle. You made my wookiee cry when he had to end up using a T-21 to do his hunting, jsut because it was "better" then his bowcaster
The whole point of a sniper is to one-shot targets withou them knowing who did it, and really no chance for them to do anyhting but run for cover. Since the distance involved required accuracy, and a good weapon, which many people often did not have. Back in the wild west days hunters were able to take out wild buffalo from 200-300 YARDS yet I can only shoot as far as an average QB in the NFL can throw a football. It has been recorded back in the late 1800 of a good marksman using a rifle and killing an Indian almsot a mile away. Tho with the game engine I would be happy with some kind of knockdown to prevent things from charging us, and giving us the time to take people down.
When I first started this game and wanted to go up the rifle tree I used a bowcaster... but like the others said, once I could use a Laser rifle that was it. How can Chewie while standing fire a burst from his 'caster at a scout trooper speeding off on a bike. yet with supposadly same weapon and "Master skills" I have a hard enough time killing Savort before it decides to start munching on me. Bowcasters should be on par damage wise with a good laser rifle. You made my wookiee cry when he had to end up using a T-21 to do his hunting, jsut because it was "better" then his bowcaster
The whole point of a sniper is to one-shot targets withou them knowing who did it, and really no chance for them to do anyhting but run for cover. Since the distance involved required accuracy, and a good weapon, which many people often did not have. Back in the wild west days hunters were able to take out wild buffalo from 200-300 YARDS yet I can only shoot as far as an average QB in the NFL can throw a football. It has been recorded back in the late 1800 of a good marksman using a rifle and killing an Indian almsot a mile away. Tho with the game engine I would be happy with some kind of knockdown to prevent things from charging us, and giving us the time to take people down.
XaverriJade7
Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:21 pm
#30
From another thread:
Ackehece wrote:
Berseker Rifle:
Non serial numbered part need for construction so no BR can be currently made, Please add the serial number to the part that needs it- so they can be constructed.
I wants this! Please
DarthMarksman
Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:50 pm
#31
We have SNIPEr and Counter Sniper as part of our skill tree. We even have a SNIPER SHOT attack. We have CONCEAL SHOT attacks. All indicative of a sniper, a covert rifleman. Why not modify the class to let it be used the way it should be. 64m? Give me a break! My shot should come from nowhere to my enemy. Period. We need to be able to do rifle attacks at long range.
And. . .FIX THE WOOKIE BOWCASTERS TO MAKE THEM BETTER! Please.
And. . .FIX THE WOOKIE BOWCASTERS TO MAKE THEM BETTER! Please.
SirLightHeart
Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:03 am
#32
XaverriJade7 wrote:
This part just really upset me- We are thinking about the future of the game. Our profession is a part of that too though. We do want the other professions fixed, but that means not nerfing ourselves to achieve some false sense of 'balance'. I don't even want to have to tell you to take your own advice, but that attitude of yours has got to go.
SirLightHeart wrote:
I mean come on, think about the future of the game and get over yourselves.
No sorry, I was a rifleman and I know the imbalances we are facing now that combat medic has been nerfed. Balance not destroy, I never said that.
Feynan
Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:14 am
#33
Ugh, I can't believe we won't have a correspondant there. I sincerely ask some of you other correspondants to not only defend Rifleman, but to be our stand-in correspondant there. Because even if you do try and defend us we won't get the attention we (and all professions) need unless we have someone directly focusing on us. Thank you.
Now, to Rifleman.
I WANT TO BE A SNIPER. We need to adapt Rifleman to make them into snipers.
Now, first off let me say that I don't believe Rifleman is really unbalanced to either Pistoleer or Carbineer, or any of the other ranged professions...if make mind healable. Once mind becomes healable we will be the same as all the other professions really. We might shoot a little harder, but that's countered with us being dead meat in the defensive mod department (we really don't get anything significant other then ranged defense, which is how it should be. We should be gods at range, and mice at melee range.)
My vision of Rifleman is that, if we get the first shot on someone, if we are more prepared then they are, they're dead 95% of the time.Seems a little outrageous, no? Hear me out.
To perform to our maximum potential, to be as powerful as we can be, we need to be in prone, need to be under cover (/takecover), need to /scope and need to /shock, a process that will take a solid 10 seconds. Meaning we really only win if the enemy walks into our trap, if they don't then, if we don't surprise them, then we're likely dead because they can either walk away or they can just wait at 70m until we have to stand up and move. Now, let me go through what each of these moves mean:
Prone: postures should have damage and defense bonuses that are profession-specific (ie. prone gives rifleman bonuses while kneeling and standing gives none, kneel gives carbineers bonuses, standing gives pistoleers bonuses). First let me say it should take 2 seconds to go prone/stand from prone, and 1 second to kneel/stand from kneel. Now, prone should have larger modifications because you move much slower, are most vulnerable to melee attacks, and it takes 2 seconds to go prone and another 2 to stand up. So basically from going prone all our specials get a damage modification which makes them above-par on damage, while if we just did the specials while standing it wouldn't even be on par damage, it'd be below-par. This encourages Rifleman to always be prone during fights.
TakeCover: This needs to remove us from radar, until we engage in combat. Once we have engaged in combat we remain on the radar until we /takecover again (/takecover should have a huge HAM cost too, and a 5 minute re-use timer as well) For the love of all things holy, please let this remove us from radar. It is the only way we can truely be snipers, because to be snipers we need to have the element of surprise in a game where you can only shoot 64m, meaning we'll be spotted on radar well before they get in range otherwise. This is something that needs to be pushed for really hard, because I have a feeling the Devs aren't going to like it at first, but explain to them how slow you move while prone (and you need the sneak ability just to move while in cover), the huge HAM cost, how it's the only way to make us snipers, and that it won't affect anyone except the first person in a fight and only that person for more than a second, because once we engage in combat we're open for at least 5 minutes, which again makes us real snipers because we need to hit and run. Our avatars will still be completely visible on screen, so it'll force us to hide in bushes or behind trees, and we're clothing that is camoflauged and stuff too. It is a somewhat small change that will have huge, positive, implications on the way Rifleman is played. Takecover has a 3 second delay until it takes effect.
Scope: This should be like a Riflemans /aim, except better. /aim just increases your accuracy, correct? Well, in the CB it was said that what's going to happen is specials like headshot, bodyshot, legshot are going to much more frequently hit random pools,and, for example, it'll be rare for headshot to get a full shot on the mind. /Scope shouldn't increase our accuracy, however it should increase our chance to get a special to hit the pool it's supposed to rather then hit a random pool, ie. it increases the chance of headshot actually hitting the head. That's what a sniper does, he shoots for specific targets, specific places, not randomly. This isn't so much a special either, because if it were a special it would cause combat to begin. Instead it's like a self-buff, a buff that requires nothing but for you to be prone (just like powerboost requires you to be meditating).
Shock: This is a special shot, just like headshot or strafeshot, except it does no damage. This shot tries to put a state on someone, the Shock state (states are things like Dizzy, Blind, Stunned, etc). The Shock state causes one of two things (whichever the Devs think is better, or whichever is easier to do for them, or whichever is more likely to get implemented). 1. It slows down the movement of the target by about 50% (basically an anti-burstrun), or 2. It causes the directional controls of the person to become randomly mixed, ie. up arrow key now makes you turn right, left arrow key now makes you go straight, basically confuses people (this state could be called Confusion instead, if option #2 is selected). Note that this isn't so much to prevent the target from getting close to us fast enough, it's meant to prevent them from leaving the 64m range too fast, because all someone has to do while fighting a Rifleman is walk out of that 64m range and then we're pretty much screwed, so we need to do all that is possible to prevent that.
Our damage, when we have done all the above steps (prone, takecover, scope, shock), should be far above the other ranged professions. We should be able to take down someone very quickly, because if we can't then they'll just run out of the 64m range and either run away to safety (us standing up and following won't do much good, because when we're not in prone our damage is sub-par compared to everyone else), or they'll just sit there and wait at 70m, basically trapping us, since we can't get away till we stand up and run, making us weaker.
Hope you can pass this along to the Devs, and any discussion on it here is welcome.
AldeonAvardulin
Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:25 am
#34
Think about what you guys are asking for. Remember we are the most powerful class in the game, as CMs have been nerfed. Asking for new and better things as the most and powerful class isnt going to get you anywhere. We need to be reasonable in what we are asking for. We should be looking to more or less how we can help balance out the situation.
IE, the person who suggested range fixes. Pistols much more accurate short range, carbs medium range, and rifles long range. At the moment, at master everyone is as accurate from every range.
XaverriJade7
Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:55 am
#35
The imbalances are due to the poor standing of other classes, not due to us being 'overpowered' or 'imbalancing'. CMs were not keeping us in check. There are several classes that can beat us if people use their brains. You may not have said 'destroy', but that's definitely the impression left upon me. If you don't agree with fixing the other professions to balance things, what do you suggest?
SirLightHeart wrote:
XaverriJade7 wrote:
This part just really upset me- We are thinking about the future of the game. Our profession is a part of that too though. We do want the other professions fixed, but that means not nerfing ourselves to achieve some false sense of 'balance'. I don't even want to have to tell you to take your own advice, but that attitude of yours has got to go.
SirLightHeart wrote:
I mean come on, think about the future of the game and get over yourselves.
No sorry, I was a rifleman and I know the imbalances we are facing now that combat medic has been nerfed. Balance not destroy, I never said that.
SirLightHeart
Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:44 pm
#36
XaverriJade7 wrote:
The imbalances are due to the poor standing of other classes, not due to us being 'overpowered' or 'imbalancing'. CMs were not keeping us in check. There are several classes that can beat us if people use their brains. You may not have said 'destroy', but that's definitely the impression left upon me. If you don't agree with fixing the other professions to balance things, what do you suggest?
SirLightHeart wrote:
XaverriJade7 wrote:
This part just really upset me- We are thinking about the future of the game. Our profession is a part of that too though. We do want the other professions fixed, but that means not nerfing ourselves to achieve some false sense of 'balance'. I don't even want to have to tell you to take your own advice, but that attitude of yours has got to go.
SirLightHeart wrote:
I mean come on, think about the future of the game and get over yourselves.
No sorry, I was a rifleman and I know the imbalances we are facing now that combat medic has been nerfed. Balance not destroy, I never said that.
Damage per second being 3x higher than any other profession through armor is balanced? From any range? While moving? Please. I agree other professions need some boosts but a person with JUST rifleman and basic weapons/armor will completely and utterly destroy any profession in the game. You can't argue that, I don't know why you'd even try.
XaverriJade7
Thu Aug 12, 2004 6:08 pm
#37
Pathetic agrument. Prove to me DPS is 3x higher than anyone else. It is not. A person with just Rifleman will get destroyed by any melee class that knows what they're doing regardless of weapons and armor. A person with just basic weapions and armor is of little threat too. You need high-end equipment to compete in this game. Give me any class with the best equipment there is and you can take just Rifleman with basic equipment. You won't stand a chance. You really think Rifleman has the defense to stand up to anything without heavy buffs/armor? They don't. Why do I try? Why do I succeed in proving my points to people that don't know any better? Because I care. I care about our profession, about the other professions, and about the game. That's why. Excuse me if that offends you. Enjoy 'utterly destroying' any profession in the game as a Rifleman without any secondary profession and without armor and buffs(because either/or just doesn't cut it with this class).
SirLightHeart wrote:
XaverriJade7 wrote:
The imbalances are due to the poor standing of other classes, not due to us being 'overpowered' or 'imbalancing'. CMs were not keeping us in check. There are several classes that can beat us if people use their brains. You may not have said 'destroy', but that's definitely the impression left upon me. If you don't agree with fixing the other professions to balance things, what do you suggest?
SirLightHeart wrote:
XaverriJade7 wrote:
This part just really upset me- We are thinking about the future of the game. Our profession is a part of that too though. We do want the other professions fixed, but that means not nerfing ourselves to achieve some false sense of 'balance'. I don't even want to have to tell you to take your own advice, but that attitude of yours has got to go.
SirLightHeart wrote:
I mean come on, think about the future of the game and get over yourselves.
No sorry, I was a rifleman and I know the imbalances we are facing now that combat medic has been nerfed. Balance not destroy, I never said that.
Damage per second being 3x higher than any other profession through armor is balanced? From any range? While moving? Please. I agree other professions need some boosts but a person with JUST rifleman and basic weapons/armor will completely and utterly destroy any profession in the game. You can't argue that, I don't know why you'd even try.
Message Edited by XaverriJade7 on 08-12-2004 09:09 PM
PsychoticChipmunk
Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:58 pm
#38
SirLightHeart wrote:
XaverriJade7 wrote:
The imbalances are due to the poor standing of other classes, not due to us being 'overpowered' or 'imbalancing'. CMs were not keeping us in check. There are several classes that can beat us if people use their brains. You may not have said 'destroy', but that's definitely the impression left upon me. If you don't agree with fixing the other professions to balance things, what do you suggest?
SirLightHeart wrote:
XaverriJade7 wrote:
This part just really upset me- We are thinking about the future of the game. Our profession is a part of that too though. We do want the other professions fixed, but that means not nerfing ourselves to achieve some false sense of 'balance'. I don't even want to have to tell you to take your own advice, but that attitude of yours has got to go.
SirLightHeart wrote:
I mean come on, think about the future of the game and get over yourselves.
No sorry, I was a rifleman and I know the imbalances we are facing now that combat medic has been nerfed. Balance not destroy, I never said that.
Damage per second being 3x higher than any other profession through armor is balanced? From any range? While moving? Please. I agree other professions need some boosts but a person with JUST rifleman and basic weapons/armor will completely and utterly destroy any profession in the game. You can't argue that, I don't know why you'd even try.
There are other threads to discuss this (and where all of your points have already been debunked) rather then fill up our concerns page to be taken to the summit, by your correspondent no less. We have high pro's in the realm of DPS but huge weaknessess and cons in terms of longevity and defenses. That balances us.
If you never played rifleman at master without buffs then you don't understand what it is like to actually play a rifleman and if you have never seen a master rifleman unbuffed in any form of combat you can't comment on how "overpowering" we are. Buffs that negate any and all negative modifiers of anything imaginable in the game overpower us, overpower everything. Get rid of those and you bring sanity back to the game and things work out a lot better. Now back to the topic at hand if you would be so kind.
Feynan
Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:38 pm
#39
As Psychotic said, Rifleman is definately not the uberness of uber. Any TKA or Fencer orjust Master Brawlerthat has two cents can take down a Rifleman, hell, a well equipped smart Pistoleer can take down a Rifleman. Our DPS isn't out of line, it's the fact that we can hit a pool that is unhealable. Once mind becomes healable, we're, for the most part, in line with other professions.
That being said, yes I realize we can't be asking for us to become even stronger. If you read my long proposal a couple of posts up, you'd realize that we're more weak then ever because there needs to be an ideal situation for us to win, and when we're in that ideal situation we rock, when we're out of it we're dead.
Rifleman needs to be very strong in certain situations, but it should be suicide fora Rifleman in others (like my above proposal: if we are not prone, under cover, and have used some specials to better focus our abilities then we're basically dead since our specials do quite sub-par damage when not in prone, and we can't go prone while chasing because in addition to prone, which should take 2 seconds to get into, we need to do other multi-second specials meaning the person will be on us and we'll be dead before we geta chance to). Why, do you ask? Because then there's no difference between the other professions, we'd all just be the same, like we are now for the most part.
Rifleman should be High Damage, High Risk.
Carbineers should be Medium Damage, Medium Risk
Pistoleers should be Low Damage, Low Risk
And I mean seriously, make these very different. Pistoleers should be able to withstand a huge beating, while Rifleman are fragile. That way the difference in damage isn't really unfair.
I view the Wizards of EQ being the Rifleman of SWG. We can deal a helluva lotta pain, but we're the first ones dead too. And, incase you didn't notice, DPS is 0 when you're dead, while if someone has a lower DPS but lasts longer they'll probably get a better DPS over the course of the fight.