Rifleman Archive
Thread: From the lips of the developers, no actually stolen from a Jedi post
Spank-A-Thon wrote:
For example, as a Carbineer - I never use a Carbine as my Assault Bowcaster outdamages every Carbine I have. So what am I? A Carbineer who uses a Rifle or a Rifleman who uses Carbineer specials?
Defined by the people who wants to nerf ya, you would be a rifleman. 
Defined by the specials, I'd say that you're in fact a Carbineer using a rifle while at the same time having a higher damage output than a rifleman would have while using rifle specials. 
Blixtev wrote:
There is much concern about rifleman damage right now (was asked in about every pvp and ranged profession forum) , however before we look at damage ranges I wanted to see what the feedback on putting more of the drawbacks in other areas such as movement speed.
1) Apparently, the jedi imbalance part of the equation does not get addressed.
When Will a Dev comment on this BIG GAME BREAKING ISSUE?
D67 wrote:
1) Apparently, the jedi imbalance part of the equation does not get addressed.
When Will a Dev comment on this BIG GAME BREAKING ISSUE?
WFN
anyway this about rifle issue not jedi imbalances and issues. I am glad to hear that blixtev is concerned not with our fire speed but with our movement speed. (a bit more acceptable.)
Ackehece wrote:
LuellaLokidottir wrote:
Really, the available range for various moves should be capped by the profession they come from, not the weapon you have equipped. So, just being able to use a T-21 (master rifle) doesn't mean you can use an ability of any other combat profession to (for example) root at the range of a T-21. That's only sensible,
The current design only encourages the kind of combat profession stacking that the CU was meant to fix.
orginally only 80% or so of the moves were to cross over... they cheaped out and now to fix that mistake it appears they want to nerf us. I keep hammering them (and the one correspondent who shall remain nameless for calling nerfs on us all the time) about this issue. Rifles should be a choice not a requirement but range issues need addressing (not with a min range but with a much lower accuracy while close) SAC should not be totally negatable and delays should not be chainable.
The big problem is that it really is not rifleman that is debalanced but the fact that other professions can use rifles (so we get the blame) with their abilities and are able to get nearly our best weapon with out spending the skill points to aquire it. Smuggler +Pistoleer + some BH +ALR = deadly
Message Edited by Ackehece on 06-05-2005 09:15 AM
).Message Edited by Va-Mei on 06-06-2005 08:40 AM
Ackehece wrote:
D67 wrote:
1) Apparently, the jedi imbalance part of the equation does not get addressed.
When Will a Dev comment on this BIG GAME BREAKING ISSUE?
WFN
anyway this about rifle issue not jedi imbalances and issues. I am glad to hear that blixtev is concerned not with our fire speed but with our movement speed. (a bit more acceptable.)
Exactly, that belongs in the GCW forum
Erm. Anyway.
I'm a glutton for punishment, so I'll say this again:
Weapons should be given a "hindrance" value, just like Armour now has. Armour you are not certified for, you cannot use. High end armour you are certified for, may hinder you if you attempt to wear it.
This makes perfect sense for weapons, too. If I know how to fire one type of rifle, it is likely that I could fire another type. But if the second type is more advanced, has special functions, a scope or whatever, I'm not likely to be able to use it to it's full potential, right? I may not know how best to use the weapon to block attacks from foes, or I might have trouble firing it as accurately as my old weapon or perhaps not as quickly as I might be able to, with more "practice" (ie; experience).
Weapons should therefore have the following hindrance values:
- Accuracy
- Rate of Fire
- Defense
Weapons that fit into a profession, should then be given specific hindrance values - rifles get rifle hindrance, pistols for pistol, etc. This would mean a pure Pistoleer could still pick up a Laser Rifle and could still use it (for "pulling" for example), but would not be as accurate, fast or capable of defending themself as they would be with a pistol. It would still be useful, but getting into position to use a favoured weapon would become much more preferable.
The exception to this should be where weapons are certified to specific boxes within a profession. T-21s are a Master Rifleman weapon and thus you must be a Master Rifleman to even equip one, therefore there should be no encumbrance placed on them (or a trivial number like 1%) as only Master Rifleman can use them. Same for "classic" weapons like Bounty Hunter's Scatter Pistols, or Commandoes Flamethrower - you need to have the profession to use them anyway, so there's no sense "punishing" players who don't take a corresponding Marksman profession.
Then, just like the armour system, you would gain mitigations at assorted points in the assorted professions. So as a Master of Rifles/Pistols/Carbines you could use any weapon OF THAT TYPE, without penalty. Whilst without that profession, you could still use certain weapons situationally, you would no longer be using a weapon that is not actually of your profession, on a day to day basis.
This will also let you use a "decent" weapon to gain XP to "respec" your character to another profession, if you want to do it, rather than being stuck with CDEFs or whatever - a Pistoleer could work out the basics of a decent Carbine, though perhaps not really specialised ones.
I realise the current system already allows for this, to a small degree, by granting specific speed/accuracy/defense mods by advancing in certain professions, but the bonuses are mostly less than what you gain in "General" ranged acc/def/spd anyway.
By adding the "hindrance" for weapons not of your profession, you could do the slowing of movement speed and the lower accuracy/speed, without affecting the class that is SUPPOSED to use the weapons involved.
The problem, as others have stated, is that this is not actually a rifleman problem. Most of our specials are not really that good. Snipershot does a lot of damage, but since it requires you to be prone, it's not THAT great. Cover is easily broken, and other than that, we don't have a lot going for us. Headshot does less damage than legshot, for example. And it costs less action, too, because carbines generally have lower action costs.
Our Master level rifle - the T-21 - is basically no better than the Advanced Laser Rifle. And the ALR only requires L54 (?).
Are the T-21 toting folk the problem? Or is it what we can do with it, that everyone else can do with the ALR anyway? Yeah, we can "root" a target at 65m. But so could a Pistoleer with an ALR. Or a Smuggler with an ALR. Or anyone else with a ranged special and a level high enough can do with an ALR.
In other words - the problem is the ALR, and weapons like it. The ALR is not a "Rifleman" weapon. We get bonuses for using it, sure, but anyone above a certain level can use them too.
It's a bit like letting everyone use lightsabers, and then nerfing the Jedi because all the Fencers pick one up to perform their specials with. The problem wasn't the Jedi, it was the decision to let everyone use the lightsaber.
But like I said, what's the point?
Blixtev wrote:
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
@ Fanfest:the only mention of a fix to the imbalance of rifle, was blixtev mentioned that he could slow down the rate of fire of rifles. he said 'its' slow now but we can slow it down more' and smiled.
This is a misquote, by "slower" I meant movement rate with rifle equipped, not rate of fire.There is much concern about rifleman damage right now (was asked in about every pvp and ranged profession forum) , however before we look at damage ranges I wanted to see what the feedback on putting more of the drawbacks in other areas such as movement speed. Sorry if it came across as rate of fire, that ballroom had lots of reverb going on in it so I am not sure if everyone was able to hear everything clearly.
There was more than one mis-understanding in many of these forums... someone asked if commando weapons could be "heavy" again and the devs just had to ask "define heavy, you want us to make you run slower when carrying one? That would be easy to do if that's what you really want". Of-course it wasn't.
But it seems like the "solution" is leaning more towards gimping Riflemen than actually addressing the real issue.
Rifles should shoot slower and have a higher SAC (which becomes less of hinderance as you shoot slower anyway). That is the way yrifles were always supposed to work, a lot of damage in very seperated shots (both 'realistic' and balancing). Carbines are supposed to shoot faster, and pistols the fastest.
Yeah, rifles should have the highest DPS, but not by very much. Sure, in the CU concept that would have been nice, but as it truns out pistoleers and carbineers (leaving all non-weapon-specific profs out of the comparison) didn't come out with much other abilities anyway. Startle shot and knee-cap give rifleman almost as much crowd-control abilaties as pistoleer and certainly more than carbineer. So where is the advantage to not taking rifles if the dps is overwhelming?
And Ackenhece,I know you don't mean to come off this way, but when the rifleman correspondant says things like "This is not negotiable nor desireable. I will not stand for it," to Dev proposed changes (which in this case turned out to be false anyway) it gives off an alienatingfeeling that rifleman are being defensive and possesive about their power without regard to the rest of the player base. We all need to be open to ideas and discussion to balance this game and make it enjoyable for everyone, especially now, with the CU still being so fresh (read: not a finished product).
P.S. For those that are interested, my template is based on a mix of all three ranged professions (and I use all 3 types of weapons for different situations), so I have equal interest in balancing them all.
Message Edited by Dragon942 on 06-06-2005 02:01 PM
robpro wrote:
Blixtev wrote:
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
@ Fanfest:
the only mention of a fix to the imbalance of rifle, was blixtev mentioned that he could slow down the rate of fire of rifles. he said 'its' slow now but we can slow it down more' and smiled.
This is a misquote, by "slower" I meant movement rate with rifle equipped, not rate of fire.
There is much concern about rifleman damage right now (was asked in about every pvp and ranged profession forum) , however before we look at damage ranges I wanted to see what the feedback on putting more of the drawbacks in other areas such as movement speed. Sorry if it came across as rate of fire, that ballroom had lots of reverb going on in it so I am not sure if everyone was able to hear everything clearly.
Why not have it so pistols getslittle weapons hinderance, carbine get medium hinderance, rifle get high hinderance.
better yet would be to make all weapons have weight the heavier the weapon the more of a hinderance. A T-21 is a very big gun were a spray stick is the size of a flashlight so the t-21 is good for sniper shots the lighter weapons that do little dmg can be use for kiting
I really liked mbh before CU when there was a time and place for each weapon type but know its just use the weapon that does the best DPS regardless of elemental dmg that can hit 65m+
Out of all the CU has changed and made this game more balanced the limited range of pistols, and carbines with no limits set for rifles has to be the $tupidest unbalancing of all time. The range/accuracy system we had before was more balanced than this $hit. As rifleman can even stay prone and shoot at point blank range now
Rifleman has already the most important movement hinderance and the higher SAC cost with special. Look at your movement speed when you wear a rifle then a pistol.
Anyway, the idea to slower again rifleman movement is not bad. In addition to that, make the laser rifle a master rifleman weapon or 4th tier box weapon because they are exactly aspowerfull as T21.
About point blank shoot: Since patch 17 this is not really possible. Under 10m (don't have tested other range yet) you will miss a lot against a simple lair. In PvP you will miss a lot too. Now i switch on my scatter pistol under 25m. I do less damage but i am more efficient in order to root my target.