Rifleman Archive
Thread: From the lips of the developers, no actually stolen from a Jedi post
Mythor wrote:
In other words - the problem is the ALR, and weapons like it. The ALR is not a "Rifleman" weapon. We get bonuses for using it, sure, but anyone above a certain level can use them too.
It's a bit like letting everyone use lightsabers, and then nerfing the Jedi because all the Fencers pick one up to perform their specials with. The problem wasn't the Jedi, it was the decision to let everyone use the lightsaber.
But like I said, what's the point?
I completely agree with you here. The main issue is the ALR and other lvl 54 weapons that have no profession requirement. These class defining weapons should require some boxes in the appropiate elite profession. I would put DL44XT, FWG5 elite carbines and ALR's in this class as far as ranged is concerned.
The problem is worst with the ALR though since it is the highest crafted damage dealing ranged weapon in the game (same max dmg cap as T21) and yet anyone can use it, even if they don't have novice marksman.
Many of the folks calling for nerfs on rifleman neglect to realise that many of those folks they want to nerf don't in alot of cases actually have anyboxes in rifleman. Any of teh dual elite ranged templates can wield a ALR just as well as a rifleman with the stacked general speed and accy mods and some good accuracy food and tapes and have some great specials to use as well. The idea of sharing specials between professions is an excellent one but allowing the key weapons from each profession class to be used by players outside of that elite class is a step too far.
Its pretty sillyto have someone with no marksman skills at all but with a lvl of 54 be able to use the highest damage ranged weapon in the game and it has also had the effect of making the T21 very unspecial since it has an equal that can be used by anyone. I am sure the carbineers and pistoleers feel the same way about the elite carbine and DL44XT and FWG5.
"Sorry, still stupid. Other professions have all sorts of things going for them other then damage, rifleman honestly arent supposed to have much BUT their damage."
That is an irrelevant arguement since master rifleman will only get you to CL50; you NEED another combat profession; therefore one way or another, you are going to have some badass styles from the other professions... while retaining the superior range, accuracy and damage of rifles.
The way I figure it, they should just make rifle damage and accuracy piddley if the enemy is closer than 50m. And make pistols miss alot more, and do less damageif they shoot at something farther out than 50m.
And of course, delete jedi from the galaxy, but thats a different story
guessit wrote:
"Pistoleers are Cabiners already come close to outdamaging us. We do slightly more DPS, and more range, at the cost of extra SAC."
I dont know what kind of dope you are smoking buddy.
With a crapass laserrifle, and 4000 riflesI could take down mobs in 3 shots with NO NOTICABLE decrease in speed, and have my action at 2/3.
With my best pistols from my old pistoleer days, and CL80 pistol/smuggI run out of action LONG before ever killing something 25 levels lower than me, end up having to heal, root, run like hell, and feign death if an add of 25 levels LOWER gets near me.
What do you know? My pistol has 20 less SAC cost... does that matter? No, because pistols dont come ANYWHERE nearclose to the dmg of rifle.
In comparison with rifle; I can kill them at 80 meters out before they even get into firing range.
Blixtev wrote:
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
@ Fanfest:the only mention of a fix to the imbalance of rifle, was blixtev mentioned that he could slow down the rate of fire of rifles. he said 'its' slow now but we can slow it down more' and smiled.
This is a misquote, by "slower" I meant movement rate with rifle equipped, not rate of fire.There is much concern about rifleman damage right now (was asked in about every pvp and ranged profession forum) , however before we look at damage ranges I wanted to see what the feedback on putting more of the drawbacks in other areas such as movement speed. Sorry if it came across as rate of fire, that ballroom had lots of reverb going on in it so I am not sure if everyone was able to hear everything clearly.
If I could make one request of *any* dev looking at this, it would be simply this: do not touch a profession until you have played it. If you are looking at your management's beloved metrics to make this kind of decision, you are guaranteeing a terrible result.
It ain't rocket science. Play Master Rifle for a week, play Master Pistol, play Master BH, play Master Carbine .... then tell us about imbalanced damage output. If you look at some dry spreadsheet and say 'oh, this looks wrong,' then you're going to screw it up .... again. The customers have quite frankly had enough of kneejerk over-nerfs where the 'fix' is worse than the problem.
Couldn't agree more. What started off as a feature for Commando's has degenerated into a "fix" for the horribly borked level/XP system.
For example, as a Carbineer - I never use a Carbine as my Assault Bowcaster outdamages every Carbine I have. So what am I? A Carbineer who uses a Rifle or a Rifleman who uses Carbineer specials?
This whole concept is nothing but a "sticking plaster" for the real problem that you couldn't (or wouldn't) fix. Professions are less defined now than they ever were.
- Ymo
That last line is so very true. I felt that after I respected (and, no, NOT to rifleman. I was a rifleman pre-cu and after cu.) I think it was a major mistake allowing specials to be used by other weapon classes. That blurred the lines so much between classes. I am a Master Rifleman, MBH, 2/2/0/4 Pistols. It lets me do all those non-rifleman shots with a rifle, like fan, stopping, warning, and so on.
As far as the rifleman 'role', we are supposed to be high in damage from a distance. I see no reason not to haveaccuracy mod penalties for close combat. close combat should be the pistoleer area. mid range should be the carbineer area.
I see people saying on how we are so ultra powerful. yes, we are powerful...at a distance. get close to us and how long will we last?
pre-cu,TK was the dominant combat profession. Strange, as a RM, as long as I kept them at a distance, I did ok. Just like now, keep melee at a distance.
It would be nice if people would just stop and see what the roles are and leave them alone. Instead of saying on how _______ profession is weak and how ________ profession is strong. They need to take a step back and see where their role fits in with the new combat system. (I do not agree with how it turned out as a whole, but that is another story.) While some professions actually do have a reason to be up in arms, like CH. But that is because, well, there are many broken things with it, and they are not able to fulfull their role, but the rest of the professions, in theory, fit in the way they are supposed to.
Message Edited by velm on 06-06-2005 11:54 PM
I'm a Master Rifle, Master BH, 0002 Pistol. My DPS with my rifle is 538. My DPS with my Scatter Pistol is 504. My SAC, however, is 104 for the rifle and 84 for the Pistol...
I'd be curious to see a Damage per Action point comparison for weapons. In the above weapons, my Rifle has a DPA of a little over 10, while my pistol has a DPA of almost 12 using just the Base Damages of the weapons above. Using the DPS stat, my DPA is 5.17 for the rifle and 6 for the pistol....hmmn.
Only two minimal examples, but both point towards pistols doing more damage over realistic combat time than a rifle.
Yes, in one shot a rifle will do more damage than a pistol, but a pistols advantage comes with a lower action loss for misses, faster specials, faster ROF....the more I run the numbers, the more it points to Pistols doing more damage throughout an engagement than a Rifle...meaning it initially appears a rifles only advantage is range...
Blix, again, don't pay attention to the kneejerk responses of people. Investigate, fix all the relevent problems, but save the nerfing until it is readily apparent that it is needed.
GraySeven wrote:I'm a Master Rifle, Master BH, 0002 Pistol. My DPS with my rifle is 538. My DPS with my Scatter Pistol is 504. My SAC, however, is 104 for the rifle and 84 for the Pistol...
I'd be curious to see a Damage per Action point comparison for weapons. In the above weapons, my Rifle has a DPA of a little over 10, while my pistol has a DPA of almost 12 using just the Base Damages of the weapons above. Using the DPS stat, my DPA is 5.17 for the rifle and 6 for the pistol....hmmn.
Only two minimal examples, but both point towards pistols doing more damage over realistic combat time than a rifle.
Yes, in one shot a rifle will do more damage than a pistol, but a pistols advantage comes with a lower action loss for misses, faster specials, faster ROF....the more I run the numbers, the more it points to Pistols doing more damage throughout an engagement than a Rifle...meaning it initially appears a rifles only advantage is range...
Blix, again, don't pay attention to the kneejerk responses of people. Investigate, fix all the relevent problems, but save the nerfing until it is readily apparent that it is needed.
Exactly. Ignore DPS ... give me Damage Per Ninety Seconds comparisons between two characters with equal HAM and buffs, using weapons with different SAC, and then analyze what real 'balance' is. Count my downtime to recharge Action in this equation or it's a meaningless comparison.
KzinKiller wrote:
GraySeven wrote:
I'm a Master Rifle, Master BH, 0002 Pistol. My DPS with my rifle is 538. My DPS with my Scatter Pistol is 504. My SAC, however, is 104 for the rifle and 84 for the Pistol...
I'd be curious to see a Damage per Action point comparison for weapons. In the above weapons, my Rifle has a DPA of a little over 10, while my pistol has a DPA of almost 12 using just the Base Damages of the weapons above. Using the DPS stat, my DPA is 5.17 for the rifle and 6 for the pistol....hmmn.
Only two minimal examples, but both point towards pistols doing more damage over realistic combat time than a rifle.
Yes, in one shot a rifle will do more damage than a pistol, but a pistols advantage comes with a lower action loss for misses, faster specials, faster ROF....the more I run the numbers, the more it points to Pistols doing more damage throughout an engagement than a Rifle...meaning it initially appears a rifles only advantage is range...
Blix, again, don't pay attention to the kneejerk responses of people. Investigate, fix all the relevent problems, but save the nerfing until it is readily apparent that it is needed.
Exactly. Ignore DPS ... give me Damage Per Ninety Seconds comparisons between two characters with equal HAM and buffs, using weapons with different SAC, and then analyze what real 'balance' is. Count my downtime to recharge Action in this equation or it's a meaningless comparison.
Sometimes you can't even properly use Damage Per (a set number of) seconds either for a fair comparison. For instance, usage of hard-hitting "nuke" attacks that takes an extraordinary time to set up and cool down would probably end up with fairly low DP(n)S...
Besides, it's folly just to focus on damage anyway, there are many more variables to combat. Yes, riflemen hit hard, but isn't that the very point? Isn't that and the range the SOLE advantages of the profession, really?
Of course, the developers created a mess for themselves when they let people use ALL specials with all weapons of the same type. But, eh, that's their headache, not mine.
Diversion wrote:
Everything but minimal range. It is just plain ridiculous. Whoever has heard about a weapon that can't be fired at point blank. Yes an accuracy penalty would be okay but no min range.
If rifles had a min. range of for example 30m it would be useless. Keeping an opponent in "the zone" taking lag into account would be impossible and Riflemen would esentially be forced to master pistols.
A min. range could maybe work if max range was 100m, but with the current 65m where someone can close the distance in 4 seconds, no way.
The max rangewould have to be more than 100m. For a "minumum range" thing to work, low level rifle-users would have to be able to kill PvE creatures before they come within the minimum range, or else they would have a hardtime getting XP. So either the max range on rifles needs to be increased with a rather huge multiplier, or the damage would have to be increased with a huge multiplier (and that's pretty insane).
Vicotnik wrote:
Diversion wrote:
Everything but minimal range. It is just plain ridiculous. Whoever has heard about a weapon that can't be fired at point blank. Yes an accuracy penalty would be okay but no min range.
If rifles had a min. range of for example 30m it would be useless. Keeping an opponent in "the zone" taking lag into account would be impossible and Riflemen would esentially be forced to master pistols.
A min. range could maybe work if max range was 100m, but with the current 65m where someone can close the distance in 4 seconds, no way.
The max rangewould have to be more than 100m. For a "minumum range" thing to work, low level rifle-users would have to be able to kill PvE creatures before they come within the minimum range, or else they would have a hardtime getting XP. So either the max range on rifles needs to be increased with a rather huge multiplier, or the damage would have to be increased with a huge multiplier (and that's pretty insane).
I agree. Personally I am quite happy with the way things are except for kneecap. I can't even see a slowdown, not even for a second. 3-4 seconds would be nice and hardly unbalancing.
guessit wrote:
"Sorry, still stupid. Other professions have all sorts of things going for them other then damage, rifleman honestly arent supposed to have much BUT their damage."
That is an irrelevant arguement since master rifleman will only get you to CL50; you NEED another combat profession; therefore one way or another, you are going to have some badass styles from the other professions... while retaining the superior range, accuracy and damage of rifles.
The way I figure it, they should just make rifle damage and accuracy piddley if the enemy is closer than 50m. And make pistols miss alot more, and do less damageif they shoot at something farther out than 50m.
And of course, delete jedi from the galaxy, but thats a different story
So what amazing specials do I get when I take Master CH with rifles? The tame function? That's a powerful special to use with my rifle. I am guessing you just ass-umed that MR has another Master shooting profession to go with it.
People like you amaze me. Do you see any other cars on the freeway when you drive to work? Or you just one of those people that think they are the only person on the road.
P.S. I need my horse blinders back,I need to train a new mount.