Rifleman Archive
Thread: The range mod posts in Corre Forums
Noules,
Pistoleers DO have significant issues. One of the biggest ones is that ALL pistoleer specials are either random HAM or health-targetting healthshot/bodyshots, and they have NO capability of applying any state mods (no stun, no dizzy, no intimidate, no whatever).
agreed 
Riflemen DO have significant benefits. We have the best AE DPS in the game. Bar none. Even commandos and BHs do not match us in this degree.
agreed.
What we really need is a clear definition of what the classes are supposed to be. Right now, riflemen are AE damage dealers. We suffer a lot of penalties for that, but there are situations where you absolutely do not want anyone other than a rifleman backing you up.
Yes! IN fact, in response to Alderon's first nerf pistoleer post, I said just that. "Hey, lets work on getting a definition of our professions." I think we posed this to the devs directly, if not, I'll check and make sure we did. It's one of the top issues IMO, if players have to make suggestions about profession balance (we do.)
The speed cap is an independent issue from the range issue. I don't see why we need to tie them together. The problem with the speed cap is a result of their poor choice of speed equation, nothing else. The problem with the range issue is that the weapon range mods were very poorly chosen (and BH pistol skill stacking with pistoleer skill). If the laser rifle/T-21 was -70/+50/+40 we wouldn't HAVE a range mod issue. THEY ARE SEPARATE PROBLEMS RESULTING FROM SEPARATE REASONS. Don't link them.
Yes! And the laser/T21 are good examples. E11, 50 ideal with 30/-50? Seems odd, either devs want it to be VERY finesse in the way you use it, only when you know you can set up a shot, or it "could" be tweaked like you say, lower the max range mod, I mean, really, it's 14 meters, why go from 30 to -50 (or whatever the #s are, I dont have all rifles yet entered in)
If anything, ask for BH pistol/carbine skills to be separate from pistoleer/carbineer skills. Split the skill up into a 'scatter pistol speed/accuracy' and a 'non-scatter pistol speed/accuracy' (possibly exclude launcher, too) with the base marksman 'pistol speed/accuracy' stacking with both (separately). A pure pistoleer's accuracy isn't actually much of an issue. It's when they get +160 pistol accuracy from mastering pistoleer and BH pistol 4 where the accuracy becomes ridiculous. The accuracy/speed mods are all pretty obviously given with the assumption that there aren't any elite-level stacking - that's precisely why defense mods are so much smaller than accuracy (because they stack).
Right on the money Noules, as usual. (and less wordy than me, as usual)
honestly, i like the idea of a range cap FOR SPECIALS. What i mean is that rifles, pistols, and carbines could fire normal shots at any distance but pistols could only use specials within 30m, carbines 25m-45m, and rifles 40m-64m. Or maybe you could make it gun specific, like a specials range so a laser rifle might be able to use specials from 46m-64m but a spray stick could use specials from 10m-32m.Of course the specials acquired in the ranged support lines for marksman would be good to use at all ranges.
I know that I am not an expert at this b/c i have very little PvP experience in this game but I think a system like this will make people decided on what is best for the situation more so than what happens now.
Well Jaegen the reason pistols need to be nerfed at least somewhat is because of the range differnces between rifles and pistols. If we are to balance them then we can either bring rifles up to par with pistols or pistols down to the lvl of rifles. The problem is pistols are more accurate at long range then rifles are at close range and rifles arent much better at long range than pistols. What we want is a balance that would allow pistoleers to have a good advantage at close ranges and rifles at long ranges. If we bring rifles to the level of pistols that will mean rifles will be good at long and close range and all the classes will become the same and have no advantages to either. When someone decides to pick rifle carbine or pistol they are in essence deciding what range they want to fight from in a fight. Why should pistoleers be able to fight from any range? I dont know if aldeons solution is the answer but you have ot understand a nerf is necessary. I think a good start is to stop the stacking of BH and pistoleer mods. I think most pistoleers and irfleman alike can agree with that. Then from there we can see what changes need to be made.
On a side note I do hope you take aldeon up on his offer to test on the test center. I think it will help everyone out. I think the reason aldeon posted this in here is to let us know he is trying. He sees whats going on and he wants to know hes at least trying to help fight the nerf. Ever since he started the correspondent job SOE has done nothing but nerf us. I think we need to see this sort of stuff so we can no hes fighting for us.
Just my two cents
I've got no problem with the 3 sec cap. I don't want the rifle to be faster. Just make it effective at a range that is more realistic if this happens...like a mile and a half for a sniper...or how about 1500m for a rifleman?
The ONLY problem with having a 3 sec cap is that ANYTHING in this game can close to melee in 3 sec. You get one shot, so that shot should be able to count to the effect of death, or nearly so. It simply doesn't make sense for a rfile to have a maximum range the same as a pistol.
ok, if adding the 3sec spd cap nerf, then...
Up all rifle dmg by a factor of x6. (if dropping the pistol to .5, but I'd be ok with x3 if the other things are implemented)
Add radar invis to sneak ability. (include the inability to target with TAB)
Make conceal shot disallow target to know where shot is coming from (both PC and NPC, like it is supposed to).
Take Cover should work on a skill mod same as the Scout ability Mask Scent. Target cant detect you unless it breaks the ability. (or maybe include the inability to target with TAB here instead, and the number of times they hit the TAB key and would have targeted you, factors in to them being able to break the Cover)
Remove x2.5 melee multipler (though if above concepts are implemented, then I'm not too concenred about this one.)
These concepts will also cure the issue of the 64m max range BS.
jaegenthe core problem i have regarding pistoleers in comparision to rifleman is that you hit a whole lot too much even when moving at maxrange and despite -90 mods on pistols. somehow the to-hit-modifier on specials is in large favour of pistoleers.
regarding your post in pistoleer forum concerning speed: http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=12637
sure pistoleers needed help - with no. 1 priority in fixing broken specials which are actually a lot but i just cant accept you are against a "nerf" (which in my opinion just brings pistols in line with carbines and rifles in overall effectiveness) of your range while you fought the whole time to nerf to carbineers and riflemen which i greatly accuse you of. the proposed changes posted by the developers could have just been taken of your post so please dont tell the community you were against nerfs.
your replies like the one with using a helmet dont enlighten my mood much either. we arent strictly talking pvp here but pvm too. pistoleer is so easy to level in comparision to rifleman its not even funny anymore and i should know because i mastered both.
I fail to see how supporting a speed change that helps one profession and hurts two others is any different from supporting a range change that helps one profession and hurts two others. To support one and decry the other as unfair is hypocritical.
Things that can be done to offset the penalty imposed by the suggested speed cap:
1. Increase the damage on rifles and carbines proportional to thier loss. If done fairly this will almost guarentee one hit kills as the rule for rifles and make one hit kills a real possibility for carbines. I don't think anyone wants this.
2. Impose a damage cap so that weapons cannot do more damage than intended. The developers could then look at weapon speeds and possibly adjust as necessary. This will allow the developers greater freedom to balance the speeds of all weapons at a later date.
3. Impose range caps so that weapons cannot function above their intended level outside of their intended ranges. This could be as simple as horrendous accuracy modifiers or be a hard cap. The developers could then investigate weapon speed and damage and adjust if necessary at a later date.
I realize that this post is not as neutral as I normally try to be, but I've never learned to stomach hypocracy. If the dps on pistols is low, why not ask that their dps be increased instead of asking that everyone elses dps be decreased? Ask for higher powered pistols. Ask for better specials. Don't support theharming of two other classes and then cry foul when it's your favorite class on the line.
In short, the proposed speed changes ask for everything from the Rifleman profession and promise nothing in return. This is not fair. Members of the Rifleman community are suggesting a tradeoff of speed for range. The reason they are asking for this tradoff is because they wish to avoid the trouble that trading speed for front loaded damage would bring (or so it seems to me, see 'one hit kills' above). This is know as balance. For every significant advantage,onehas an equally significant disadvantage and vice versa. Being able to only take 1-2 shots pertarget without the use of a 'tank' is a huge disadvantage and requires and equally huge advantage. Being able to take 6 shots to another person's 1 shot is a huge advantage and requires an equaly huge disadvantage.
My intrest is not to destroy or promote one profession over another. My intrest is to honestly examine the advantages and disadvantages and point out where they are not equal. I urge you to search your motives and appraise them. Zealotry is bad, do not turn into a zealot.
EternalN00b wrote:
My apologies, I posted in anger. If there were an edit button I would take back what I have said.
Not sure who you were angry at... The pistoleer correspondant?
Personally, I think your above post was well-though out and reasonsed. One of the best 'balancing' ideology posts I've seen actually. It explains exactly what the problem is with all the nerf-crying and the like. Too many people want their profession to 'pwn jooz' without thinking of the reprocutions of their cry. Too few analyze the concepts (and try to work out solutions) of their own profession(s) without comparing it to another. This is among the greatest problems on the entirety of the boards.
Good Post EternalN00B
To be up front about this post, this isa rant from a disgruntled rifleman (3/2/3/3)
As far as I can tell from reading these forums, less-than-master riflemen are not gods of anything. The grind to master rifleman is excruciating. Just how many master riflemen do you pistoleers see? I haven't seen one on Eclipse yet (but I dont PvP either). I've been grinding PvE 3-6 hours a day for weeks and I am not there yet.We are gimped enough that very few people are trying to become master riflemen. So why is this speed cap even being proposed? And why do the devs always OVERDO every nerf anyway? Seems to me, if they were going to do anything at all,they should try a 2-sec cap (and keep the 1-sec cap for pistols) and raise damage a little or fix our T21 if they are going to do anything.
OTHER ODDS AND ENDS:
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Elanoic wrote:
"A pistoleer should be less effective at long range. A rifleman should be less effective at short range."
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Well guess what, A rifleman IS less effective at short range. Pistols however are NOT less effective at long range.
Also, the issue of Mind damage and recovery time has been brought up over and over again by riflemen, but never gets a response from the pistol community. To be fair, shouldn't you pistol usersbe forced to sit and recover for 2-3 minutes after every10-15 specials?Maybe we should ask for that?
Who was it that started talking about AREA in this thread? What does that have to do with anything? My rifle shoots in a straight line. If something is one foot on either side of that line, I dont hit it. Maybe with master I will, eh?
Personally, I would like to see melee lowered, HAM costs lowered, some minor range mods put into effect and then re-evaluate where everyone is. Fix everyone's specials to work the way they are supposed to before trying to re-balance everything. Then start TWEAKING, not re-writing, the balance! Jeez!
I dont get how Pistol players any type dont realize how they are in fact masters of both long range and short range. We are supposed to be the masters of logn range, meaning we shoot 10x better then you at 64 meters.
Like I said there are 4 solutions I can think of.
1.) Increase Rifleman/Caribineeer Max range.
2.) Decrease Caribineer/Pistoleer Max Range.
3.) Decrease styles max range as are commandos
4.) Decrease accuracy bonuses on all pistol/caribineer styles.
If we do not get masters of long range, no matter what we do a rifleman will be dead. No matter how much damage we add we will die. You get 6 shots to our 1, suppose you have 1k HP, I hit you for 800 damage with strafe shot. Will say the average pistoler damage is 250. I have 1k HP to all pools. Now lets assume Body Shot 3, wich is a multiplier of 3. Were saying with Bodyshot 200 will be your average shot, now this is all assuming were both not wearing armor. Becuase Rifleman happen to not wear armor unless they want to kill themselves.
800 damage Action
200 health
200 healh
200 health
miss
200 health
200 health
Now this can all be done at 60 meters with a pistol. Your telling me something like that should not be changed? That we should not be the masters of long range?
I can easily prove to you your accuracy at 60 meters, so I again invite you to do tests. Any pistol of your choice, at 60 meters, shoot me styled then un-styled. Just private message me a time and date. This is what the 10th time Ive asked you to run tests with me.
Making it so riflemanare accurate at all ranges just like pistols isnt going to help.
AldeonAvardulin wrote:I dont get how Pistol players any type dont realize how they are in fact masters of both long range and short range. We are supposed to be the masters of logn range, meaning we shoot 10x better then you at 64 meters.
The Pistoleers probably just want to remain "uber." And even if many aren't the Pistoleer correspondant certainly acts that way.
EternalNoob,
I fail to see how supporting a speed change that helps one profession and hurts two others is any different from supporting a range change that helps one profession and hurts two others. To support one and decry the other as unfair is hypocritical.
Not exactly, but I won't waste time describing why that's not a correct statement.
What you're trying to imply is that the speed change "only" hurst rifleman. This is not true. In fact, I already stated, and you know, that the speed issue affects rifleman, BHs, Carbineers, Pistoleers, even melee, but less so since their speeds are divided, but TKA is over 100..which meant again, it was screwed up.
The ONLY change needed for speed was to make it so there was no 1.0 speed cap that was easily reached, and so speed scaled fairly regularly as you approach your maximum speed. The game was desgined with speed in mind for balance, and speed goes out the window at around +90-95 speed, you know this. Even your corresondant said this, everyone that hit master silently continued playing in the hopes it wouldn't be changed.
When we did our special ability analaysis, took the DPS for all our specials, we noticed that we kept having difficulty figuring out what's best, and why, because of the stupid wasy speed was calculated. I'm repeating myself, re-read my post if you need to know why it was first brought up.
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What you DONT like is the new speed proposal. Focus man, focus. Don't swing a brush of being victimized around. When our disarming shot 2 got nerfed to hell did we try to get Carbine special attacks nerfed? Good grief, no, we examined OUR issues, and yes, speed affected pistoleers, carbineers, rifleman, and bounty hunters..heck, even smugglers.Last ditch firing every second? You think that was intentional? Maybe, but if so, all the devs had to say was "that's intentional" which we know it wasn't. We have a list of 10+ PISOTLEER issues we want fixied, not 6 fixes, 2 nerfs to rifleman, 1 to BH, and one to carbineer. Sheesh.
What about melee professions that had no way to reach their uber speed cap? Left in the cold? Yeah, you'd like that wouldn't you. Your damage goes off the charts, and theirs just chugs along at low speed even at master. You'd like to spend only master marksman + master rifleman while carbineers had to purchase BH and had no skills left over. Hey, you're human, I don't blame you for liking the advantage, but when push comes to shove, and it's being removed, don't kick and scream about how it was your ONLY advantage and that it was inentional. Instead, figure out how YOU would like rifle speed to work.
Again, the proposal for pistoleers to get a 2x damage boost is pretty silly, if you want to argue about that, fine, you should. But don't say it hurts you and you alone. it doesn't, and if they do it "right" it should help balance across the board. The devs now plan to allow only some to hit the cap, and still others not being able to. What does this solve? Nothing. So nerf pistoleers? *shakes head*. Obviously you're off track.
Put simply, with a front line to keep your from being immediately charged up close, you are more effective than pistols/carbines at range. That is true. How much more effective gets you all confused when you start comparing yourself to Bounty Hunters, and when you try to "duel" someone who can, at the very LEAST, burst run over to you and lay the smack down. Sorry, that's the way it works, just like casters in other MMORPGs, you get rushed, you die. You stay at range, by whatever tactics, groups, spcecials allow you to, and you do better than the other, more generic damage professions. But even solo in a "duel" you do have options. Open with rifle and switch to 2H or TKA when close, it all depends on YOUR decisions. Do you have dizzy/posture change to keep someone at range? I don't know, you play a rifleman, you tell me. You can master rifle/pistol if you think it's so wonderful, please do. Then you can help us fix pistoleer, because that's what we're after. No, you like to charge up, running with your rifle and wonder why you are ineffective. Hang in the back, wait until folks engage, pick your target, prone, boom. You can even DB before they get dragged or healed, I can't stand when rifleman take me out..insta corpse even if we are holding the front line.
You have cover, pistoleers have..nothing like that
You have DB at range, pistoleers have...nothing like that
You have faster crawl speed, pistoleers have nothing like that.
Even when it comes to variety, pistoleers suck. So quit with the pistoleer nerfs, no one is dying to pistoleers, it's bounty hunters.
Here is your arugment:
Rifles suck because other players can charge us, therefore pistoleers need a range nerf.
eh? If we can charge you in 3 seconds, as you say, in 1.5 seconds we're STILL on top of you, what does that buy you? NOthing. See why you're shooting in the wrong direction when what you should be working on is rifleman?