Rifleman Archive
Thread: The range mod posts in Corre Forums
Elanoic wrote:
Are you suggesting that your specials should apply to targets in an area which is four times the size of our effective area?
Yes, considering that's the definition of a rifleman.
Verhoffin wrote:
Elanoic wrote:
Are you suggesting that your specials should apply to targets in an area which is four times the size of our effective area?
Yes, considering that's the definition of a rifleman.
The definition of a rifleman is a combatant equipped with a rifle.
The definition of balance is giving everyone a fair chance.
Having a fair chance does not require taking ours away.
Balance first. Then common sense. Always and forever.
-c.
Verhoffin wrote:
Elanoic wrote:
The definition of a rifleman is a combatant equipped with a rifle.
The definition of balance is giving everyone a fair chance.
Having a fair chance does not require taking ours away.
Balance first. Then common sense. Always and forever.
-c.
Fair chance huh? Then to "balance" that all melee fighters should be able t hit from 64m away.
Fact is pistol users shouldn't be very effective at max range, much less a Bounty Hunter with Eye Shot.
A pistoleer should be less effective at long range. A rifleman should be less effective at short range. A rifleman should be more effective at short range than he is now. Making this happen does not involve making pistoleers less effective at long range than they are now. You can improve your own class without breaking ours.
I can't tell you how to fix melee characters. Honestly, I don't know where they fit in to game balance. No, I don't believe they should be effective at 64 meters. Yes, I think the fact that every ranged profession can kite every melee profession is a problem. No, I don't know what the solution is. However, making pistols ineffective at long range DOES NOT SOLVE THIS.
Making pistoleers ineffective at long range also does not fix the fact that riflemen are ineffective at short range. The way to fix that is to FIX RIFLEMEN, not to BREAK PISTOLEERS.
-c.
Elanoic wrote:
Verhoffin wrote:
Elanoic wrote:
The definition of a rifleman is a combatant equipped with a rifle.
The definition of balance is giving everyone a fair chance.
Having a fair chance does not require taking ours away.
Balance first. Then common sense. Always and forever.
-c.
Fair chance huh? Then to "balance" that all melee fighters should be able t hit from 64m away.
Fact is pistol users shouldn't be very effective at max range, much less a Bounty Hunter with Eye Shot.
A pistoleer should be less effective at long range. A rifleman should be less effective at short range. A rifleman should be more effective at short range than he is now. Making this happen does not involve making pistoleers less effective at long range than they are now. You can improve your own class without breaking ours.
I can't tell you how to fix melee characters. Honestly, I don't know where they fit in to game balance. No, I don't believe they should be effective at 64 meters. Yes, I think the fact that every ranged profession can kite every melee profession is a problem. No, I don't know what the solution is. However, making pistols ineffective at long range DOES NOT SOLVE THIS.
Making pistoleers ineffective at long range also does not fix the fact that riflemen are ineffective at short range. The way to fix that is to FIX RIFLEMEN, not to BREAK PISTOLEERS.
-c.
If a rifleman is made more accurate at close range, then range doesn't matter for anyone cause everyone will be accuracte from anywhere. It's totally unrealistic. Nope. Pistoleers shouldn't be able to hit the broad sight of abronto with pistol after 35m.
It completely aboat balance the pistols advantage is curretly speed planning on placeing a hard cap on speed so that pitolers get the advantage.
Rifles advantage is surposed be RANGE but fact is currently pistols can hit just as effectively at long range as a rifle can in ideal range. Make current changes where a pistol shots 4 or 6 times faster then rifle then got a huge balance problem.
So going by current speed solution a HARD CAP should be placed on weapon ranges so no matter how many clothing inserts you place you cannot fire at same range as rifleman. In this way DPS of a pistol could be larger due to fact rifleman would get 1 shot off before pistoler could respond.
Fact 90% pvp occure in cities means hard cap on range would not equal much anyway as most fights occure below 50 m as is. So most likely a fight would be
Rifleman shots hits for 300 mind damage
Pistol useing burst closes in
Pistol shots for 240 health damage
Rifleman shots hits or miss 300 mind dmaage
pistol shots hits 240
pistol shots hits 240
pistol shots hits 240
pistol shots hits 240
pistol shots hits 240
pistol misses
Get the pistice 6 rounds the pistoler will get under the current system or 4 round if pistoler speed cap is reduced to 1 second.sorry unless a range cap is put in place a rifleman will automatical lose any fight due to fact. That a pistol users going to get 3 or 4 minimun shots of to every one of rifleman if one shot rifleman gets misses he in for lot of pain.
While pistoler misses half his shots rifleman still going FEEL the burn.
Zarl0k wrote:
If a rifleman is made more accurate at close range, then range doesn't matter for anyone cause everyone will be accuracte from anywhere. It's totally unrealistic. Nope. Pistoleers shouldn't be able to hit the broad sight of a bronto with pistol after 35m.
There's that word again. "Unrealistic". I say, if it makes gameplay balanced, to the nine he1ls with realism.
And as for homogenous accuracy, I say let it be so. Pistols will be slightly less accurate at long range, rifles slightly less at short range. If they ever get around to fixing rifle damage, this slight difference will decide battles.
Yes, I think rifle damage should be increased. Somewhere between current damage and your brief heyday with the T-21 would be appropriate, perhaps slightly favoring the higher damage.
-c.
Truncating the ranges of Carbines and Pistols is going a little far. Just being able to fire back isn't enough. They'll do damage to the attacker but you can't win a fight without being able to perform specials.
A Pistoleer does have a range advantage because their movement penalty is relatively small which allows them the advantage of mobility to keep targets in their optimal range. Also most combat takes place closer to Pistol range then Rifle range because mobs tend to close distances, dungeons are small, and players can more easily get closer to their target then further. In PvP the same general rules apply.
Since Riflemen are becoming more immobile there does need to be special consideration given to the fact that targets will almost always be closing distances. It would be better to give Rifles less penalties outside optimum range or give Riflemen a larger optimal range. This wouldn't require that one class be nerfed for another and Riflemen wouldn't loose effectiveness as quickly while mobs close on them. If specials are still a problem then accuracy modifiers on special attacks can be removed to make the range modifiers stricter.
-c.
It's not really constructive to bad-mouth the pistoleer correspondant. He also does have some valid points, although near the end of the posts the acerbity starts to take over.
Pistoleers DO have significant issues. One of the biggest ones is that ALL pistoleer specials are either random HAM or health-targetting healthshot/bodyshots, and they have NO capability of applying any state mods (no stun, no dizzy, no intimidate, no whatever).
Riflemen DO have significant benefits. We have the best AE DPS in the game. Bar none. Even commandos and BHs do not match us in this degree.
What we really need is a clear definition of what the classes are supposed to be. Right now, riflemen are AE damage dealers. We suffer a lot of penalties for that, but there are situations where you absolutely do not want anyone other than a rifleman backing you up.
The speed cap is an independent issue from the range issue. I don't see why we need to tie them together. The problem with the speed cap is a result of their poor choice of speed equation, nothing else. The problem with the range issue is that the weapon range mods were very poorly chosen (and BH pistol skill stacking with pistoleer skill). If the laser rifle/T-21 was -70/+50/+40 we wouldn't HAVE a range mod issue. THEY ARE SEPARATE PROBLEMS RESULTING FROM SEPARATE REASONS. Don't link them.
If anything, ask for BH pistol/carbine skills to be separate from pistoleer/carbineer skills. Split the skill up into a 'scatter pistol speed/accuracy' and a 'non-scatter pistol speed/accuracy' (possibly exclude launcher, too) with the base marksman 'pistol speed/accuracy' stacking with both (separately). A pure pistoleer's accuracy isn't actually much of an issue. It's when they get +160 pistol accuracy from mastering pistoleer and BH pistol 4 where the accuracy becomes ridiculous. The accuracy/speed mods are all pretty obviously given with the assumption that there aren't any elite-level stacking - that's precisely why defense mods are so much smaller than accuracy (because they stack).
Seflyn wrote:
"All our AP2 or greater guns do energy damage, a PSG helps very nicely against that, add to that AP doesn't even work on people without armour and it is not that great advantage. "
Sure it does, there's a damage multiplier
If I wanted to post on the rifle forum I would, please don't cross post my posts, out of courtesy. There is no rule against it, but I think folks would need to see the entire post, starting with, your adamant stance on nerfing the crap out of pistoleers so they can fire only at 32m or less range. You started the post, clearly, not asking for rifle changes, simply asking for pistoleers, and to a lesser extent, carbineers, to be reduced in effectiveness. Yes, it might accidentally affect BHs too, but far lessthan the disastrousaffect it would have on pistoleers.
Asking for nerfs, directly, and explicitly, on another profession, to make your profession "better" realtively speaking, is in bad form IMO. I understand how it could happen with the speed nerf looming, but I explainedthat everyone should be involved inhelpingprevent that from going in as you think it will, we agree, it's a little over the top (a lot over the top). If you want more accuracy, you ask for more accuracy for RIFLES, if you want less of a disadvantage in melee you ASK FOR LESS DISADVANTAGE in melee. You don't ask for pistoleers to be nerfed, out of spite because you see the impending speed change that might...actually...balance things easier. And we're talking about pistols/rifles AND carbines will be easier to balance if speed works. Even BH for that matter. Speed was borked, plain and simple.
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Now, since somone decided to respond, I'll gladlyrespond.
Unless I'm mistaken using a laser rifle you can't hit 1 second per style unless you reduce the speed or have master marksman.
Master marksman is much cheaper than BH pistol 2, or BH carbine, which pistols and carbines require to hit the speed cap. But this is not really relevant to his request to "NERF PISTOLEERS". But yes, you get it cheaper, nice.
As for the TKA comment, tell him to take BH and **edit** already. Rifle can ONLY take master marksman to make their rifle better, a pistoleer has lots more options to make his pistol more effective. Currently a BH pistol and pistoleer stack up much better thanhaving 2elite combat classes.
I did. What does this have to do with nerfing pistoleer range to 32m instead of improving or "fixing" rifles? Fix rifles, that is, if you have problems. I see flushing volley hitting for 500+ AOE + STUN every second as "fairly effective". All for the low cost of master marksman. Try adding master scout and 3 boxes in BH just to compete with that if you really want to talk about a skill point sink..but again, we're digressing here.
Saying nothing has changed yet is just being silly, we are trying to prevent the change going in ffs, is he trying to be stupid here or what?
??? If only you/he were trying to be constructive.You are right, fix the speed issue before it goes to test, and/or fix it when it's in test. Don't take it laying down, sheesh man. Pistoleers dont want 2x boost in damage at the same time rifleman get knocked to 1/3 of their present level? What SENSE does that make?? Give me a break, if it does go in, yeah, go for it, remove mind cost, make rifleman buff mind, whatever, because if pistols do 2x to your 1/3, you're in serious trouble. But that simply won't happen, and if it does...not for long.
helmet on is asking for a quick trip to the cloning center.
Your call, die in 6 shots or use more mind when shooting. You can get 60-70% composite and equip it if you see "blind" state, whatever works for you. if your analysis shows that firing every second you lose more mind than you take, when eyeshot's hitting for 250-300 per hit every second, I doubt it. Eyeshot is simply better than your mind shots. Why would nerfing pistoleers be the answer to what you see as an issue here? BHs use pistols better than pistoleers, and carbines..well, i dont know if better than carbineers, but certainly well, and LLCs are pretty close to commando flamers...well, why would you not think they would also be gifted with "rifle-esqu" skills like hitting mind pool free of mind cost? BH> you. Probably always will be.
All our AP2 or greater guns do energy damage, a PSG helps very nicely against that, add to that AP doesn't even work on people without armour and it is not that great advantage.
PSG helps against all damage types, depends on how they craft it, I personally buy more balanced PSGs that dont focus on energy, preferring more well rounded protection.My PSGs have acid resist, and stun for that matter. moot point. actually, no it's not. Your AR2-3 does indeed help in PvE, and PvE is part of the game, you know it's not all PvP.
He seems to totally ignore the fact that we use an insane amount of mind, sure we will be the damage kings in a large scale battle, all for the 15 seconds it takes to empty our mind bar (That's when we don't use a laser or T21 and miss half the shots). In PvE this makes a hugh difference, a pistoleer can have almost no downtime compared to a rifleman.
Ignore what fact? How do I ingnore that? Do you see what we're talking about in the above? Your correspondent made an entire post with one request in it. Change pistoleers to around 32m range, and carbines to around 50ish range. For Pete's sake man, Idon't know what allyour problems are, but I hope you get them fixed, but I DONT care for anyone asking for the gimp that is pistoleer to be gimped even more, just because you think bounty hunters are better than you. You know, many master pistoleers would like to be good with pistols, and not just a platform for better BH pistol users.
He really does seem to want a no disadvantage except the no high AP guns situation. I bet if the changes go in as is, the next request from pistoleers will be a AP2 gun.
Pistoleer:
Pistol Melee defense 1: our only knockdown, range, 7 FREAKING METERS
Pistole melee defense 2: anyone use this piece of garbage? I dont, but hey, RANGE 7 METERS
Point Blank Single 2: range 12 METERS
Point Blank AOE 2: Doesnt hit AOE, but oh well, we're uber right? 12 meters
SRCOMBAT, one of our 2 AR1 guns. Range, 48m, and horrible stats, no one uses them
Tangle pistol: our stun gun: ~104 max damage, range, 48m
OUR TOP OF THE LINE, PISTOLEER DX2:
Point blank range as ideal range. Ever try to shoot at long range with a DX2? Probably not.
Anyway, it's 100-150 damage AR1, with point blank ideal range. That's as good as we get.
Four special attacks at <=12 meter range? 2 of our best AR guns at 48m, and our best with ideal range set to point blank (translates to, worst pistol accuracy in our lineup) Riiighhtt.. please tell me more about pistoleers being uber.
What about targeted shots? Hrm, health shot vs mind shot? Take your pick.
Bleeds? Low damage healt bleeds vs VERY high damage mind bleeds? No brainer eh?
what about random HAM damage. Hrm..fan shot vs flushing volley...you decide.
What about melee damage. Wow, something pistoleers do well at, tanking..well, we get no melee toughness so we dont tank like melees, we just take less damage than carbines FROM melee, but far more than melees take from melee. But you know the irony here, your correspondent's #1 issue is "remove the damage rifleman take from melee". Funny, I know.
State effects? A few "real" ranged profession get knockdowns, dizzys, and posture changes, which seem to be fairly interesting combos (posture change dizzy is OK, you think?) Heh, pistoleers? 7m knockown is it. Thank you drive through..right?
But we're really off target here. I know plenty of what pistoleer have and don't have, come to the pistoleer forum if you want more examples.
Pistols get VERY nice defensive mods compared to rifles.
What do you mean, VERY nice defensive mods? Dodge does next to nothing, just like your block. You get cover, we get a few more state defense mods that really dont do jack, because you know darn well that anyone firing, say, posture change, just has to fire it twice, to get around any "state defense" that might make it "slightly" harder to land a shot. Personally, I spam attacks when I want them to land, we all do, that's why state effect defense is silly unless you have around +90. Defense <<<< everything else in the trees, we all know it (well, ranged defense is OK, and you get it, + cover).
I wouldn't be so against a pistol buff if it would not also buff BHs, as it stands any advantage given to pistoleers falls right out of whack because so many of them have the BH pistol tree.
Agreed, my first issues report was looking for some way to split the two up. But you know how well that was recieved by bounty hunters.See how your efforts should be focused on rifles, and not bounty hunters, and CERTAINLY not pistoleers? Pistoleers are chumps guys, they dont' stand a chance unless they spend all their points on mastery + BH pistol 2+, and THEN they are out of skill points, and are really ONLY good because of BH. see the trend? BH>all, always has been and probably will be. And pistoleer do not want or expect some huge advantage if speed is changed. Quite the opposite, we expected to get a slight nerf from this, since one would have thought, that if speed was "fixed", that NO ONE would hit the speed cap. Shouldn't we be making suggestions on how to fix speed in better way? Pistoleers would however, prefer to be a working, capable, stand alone ranged combat weapon profession.
Sorry I wrote half these before I saw your reply, nicely done. I have overstated some of our weaknesses here, but not even close tothe amount the pistoleer correspondent did.
No no no. Speed being fixed fixes far more than rifles firing every second. You see, when we set out to propose changes for our specials, we kept having problems because of the stupid freaking speed formula. We did our homework, tested each and every special attack, we figured out the speed formula before anyone had it posted (yes, I tested it using CDEFS and a stopwatch) Well, at mastery, this special is "slightly" better than that special, but when you get it, it sucks compared to everything else. Is this intentional? If so, it's silly. stopping shot only effective if you get BH pistol? **edit** is that? Speed slices and powerups mean jack after you cap speed? Why? Why is kip up shot the same damage as fan shot?? It made it too hard to figure out balance, plain and simple. No one wanted/expected them to make that crazy post about speed caps .5, 3x and all that stuff. Yes, we think pistoleers getting 2x damage and rifleman getting 1/3rd (as I said in the thread to your corr) is goofy. Of course that's not "balance". It's actually worse than the way it is now. It would never stay, and IMO, it won't even go in like that, it will change, as longs as we show clearly why it's a bad move.
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Bottom line:
Find out a better answer to the speed issue. Work with the dev, us, carbineers, whoever. Make sure we test it, make sure it's fairly well balanced. Most pistoleers "assume" speed would simply be changed so that it has less of an effect (to EVERYONE), or that everyone would be cap'd at say, 80, or something that didn't allow hitting the stupid cap that screws everyone up (yes, everyone). TKAs got more speed than +100 or something I hear, talk about "not working as intended. No one anticipated this change specifically to pistol/carbine/rifle, etc.
Work on making rifleman work in PvP and PvE at an acceptable level.
Should all "mind" attacks cost mind?
If not, should your focus be readily buff-able or your weapon action costs lowered or the action cost modifier on your specials lowered?
Should your accuracy mods on your rifles be more consistent?
Do the devs really expect you to be a finesse weapon, with better stopping power if and only if you set up prone, and have a frontline to protect you?
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We'll back you on most any reasonable request as long as it's not to nerf pistoleers to 32m range, I mean, we're gracious but that's just not good mojo.
That last post was to set the tone, oh, and this:
PsychoticChipmunk,
I take offense to that, you don't know me, and if you did, you'd know I'm generally pretty humble and would prefer balance/challenge any day, over the opposite.
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Ways you can fix rifles without nerfing pistoleers:
Increase rifle accuracy skill mods
Increase rifle accuracy when prone
Increase rifle accuracy when kneeling
Increase some rifle special abilitity accuracy modifiers (they are +5 according the the tactics guide, which I havent bothered to test).
Increase rifles accuracy profile at range. as it is, most rifles are ONLY accurate right around ideal range. It drops off sharply in some cases from say 50-64m. the example aldeon kept using was a good example. Boards dead, can't copy/past. It was something like, for every meter past ideal, the FWG5 loses 1.5 accuracy per meter, but the E11 lost 3.6 per peter past ideal range, to max range. anyway, examine your rifle profiles. Actually, that may be part of the problem altogether, some rifles if you dont stay in ideal range, your accuracy drops dramatically, even if you are at say, 64m rather than ideal of 50m.
Don't you have good short range rifles...spray stick, what..2.0 speed crafted? I'm no rifle expert, but I know I have to switch pistols given different situations.
Given: Mind pool targeted shots is a great advantage, offset by the fact it costs you mind.
Fact: There are "other" mind shots, that do not cost mind, and do comparable damage.
Fact: BHs are what your #1 issue is, and that's either "too bad" since BHs do indeed seem to be the chosen profession to have as good or better skills than their less costly counterparts, or it's something that needs to change...i.e. all mind pool shots should cost mind. I mean, CM poisons cost mind, dont they? Your special do, actually, ALL your specials do.
Make focus more readily buff-able.
Find out what the design goal for rifles is. It may well be that you are expected to go prone ( mean, you have an entire freaking skill tree devoted to it, why in the hell would you deny it's part of the design) to get on par with accuracy, and when you DO, you are more effective than other ranged professions, minus BH.
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But honestly, personally, I'd rather see how balance works after the speed change..THEN make change requests on new stuff, otherwise, who knows what we're really working with. And 2 gurrecks charging you..dunno, have to think more on that. I mean, we all get nailed when 2 gurreks wail on us for PvE damage in PvP, unless we can switch target fast enough and start the warning shots, then kill the owner. I mean, again, this isn't related to pistoleers..
Noules.
It's not really constructive to bad-mouth the pistoleer correspondant. He also does have some valid points, although near the end of the posts the acerbity starts to take over.
I think by then we were on post 6 or so in reponse. I was getting quit tired of 32m hard cap request to pistoleers, being made to devs, by the rifle corr.