Rifleman Archive
Thread: You wanted knockdown logs? Well here you go
Silver Lobo,
All you've done is prove everyone's point here. And yes, you are a tool. The idea that anyone would build their entire skill tree against one type of type proves how imbalanced the game really is when it comes to knockdown. Why didn't you build your character around defending againstdizzy attacks? What you are basically saying is that for anyone to enjoy combat they should craft a good knockdown defense. That's silly. You are also basically saying that unless you want to max out combat skills in a vareity of defensive trees, then don't bother showing up on the battlefield. That's plain stupid, and although it seems obvious they are, I hate to think the Dev's are that stupid too.
Flick
Unfortunately... this entire argument, which has prospered to long, is based on a failed predicate.
Bounty Hunter's are NOT supposed to be the super,duper, end-all, god-kings of COMBAT!.... HENCE the name BOUNTY HUNTER. THEY HUNT BOUNTIES. They can track, capture, and kill. Your misconception is biased by your personal preferances... Yes a Master bounty hunter should be the best at BOUNTY HUNTING, NOT COMBAT CLASS. If anything Commmando has a better argument for the end-all combat class.
Therefore it is irrelevant how many points are spent on master bounty hunter v.s. master rifleman. That's equivalent to saying It cost me X number of points to get Master Combat Medic, and it only cost you X - Y number of points to reach Master Doctor, therefore I should be better at healing then you are. Guess what... Doctors are better at healing, and they spend less points to get that way. WHY? They are specialized in healing.... and no.. they don't have to take scout wildneress skills to be able to climb hills and heal people either.
Please take your disjointed arguments to a forum where people can be easliy fooled and manipulated. Might I suggest one of the vault forums,.
I dont understand whats other people's beef about having to go somewhere else than the rifleman tree to find KD defense.
You are not a rifleman, a rifleman is a sidedish that only takes 40% of your point. You are mainly something else, then a rifleman. Likewise for pistoleer and carbineer ( the low elite profession, that only requires one tree of a basic profession to become).
Why not use your main profession for the KD defense? I agree with eveyone here that a carbineer and pistoleer gets KD, which is a very useful skill in PVP. Thats their advantage.
But, can a carbineer or pistoleer slap a 2500 combined bleed on something? Didn't thought so. Thats OUR advantage.
So you give some, you take some. Lobo is mainly right here.
I think the point beind made here is this.
If you just have the 97 or so points to master riflemen, you'll be at a disadvantage (vs pistol, bh). but overall, if you just have 97 skill points, you're a relatively young player.
when everyone starts to approach their 250 sp limits, that's when the rifleman will become better.
a rifleman with 250 spent points will be able to defend against the 97 point pistolman, and perhaps the 250 point pistolman as well.
so, as i see it, rifelmen have a choice. to be a little bit weaker from 0-97 points, and after that they can pick up more points to become stronger than pistolers with more points.
You guys who think the BH should be better because of the points they spend really need to take a minute and really THINK about what that means. If a couple more months go by, and the BH is still clearly on a whole other level above everyone else in pvp (fire, KD, eyeshot), nobody who likes pvp will be left playing any other class. That is not going to be fun. It's going to be boring as hell.
BHs spend those points to get VARIETY, not to have an unfair advantageat pvpover amaster in another ranged class. It has to be that way, or this game is toast.
With all these posts to nerf knockdown I believe they are strong evidence to support my statement that people just want a free ticket. The ability is out there, but that isnt good enough, oh well.
Silver Lobo,
You still don't get it do you? Have you noticed there aren't "all these posts" about nerfing stun or dizzy? Would you like me to tell you why? Because dizzy and stun attacks don't pack the kind of combat disruption that a knockdown does. So you went out a built a uber-defensive character, I think that's marvelous. My hats off to you brother. But why not admit that you did it to defend against knockdown?
I promise you that as you started taking your defensive route you didn't say to yourself, "OMG thesedizzy attacks are incredible. I better build a better defensive against them or I'm toast."
As far as your "test" goes, you can't really demonstrate whether it's defense against knockdown or melee defense causing your opponent to miss. I suspect it's melee defense rating.
I also have to question you on this--- Why did this fight between you and opponent X take well over 10 minutes to complete? Don't you realize that after you get knocked down a normal enemy will unleash devestating bleed attacks or other attacks on you?
Last night I witnessed a TKA artist (level unknown) fight an Apprentice Pistoleer with maybe a few bars of pistol XP filled. Within a few seconds the TKA closed in on the pistoleer. The pistoleer got knocked down. The pistoleerNEVER got back upeven after 90 seconds of combat. TKA dude had scripted something out or was so good at timing his attacks that the poor guy never got off the ground. I watched a HAM bar that was almost full go to zero in about 20 or 30 hits. I wish I had that log to post. It was say "Knockdown, Stim B, unarmed attack 2, knockdown, stim B, unarmed attack 3, knockdown, stim B" ad nausem.
Now you tell me any other special attack that can have this effect, or could be macro-ed to be such an obvious exploit of developer's intent. Everyone knows it needed nerfing, everyone. I don't think too many on this board want it to be nerfed again so much as they think it's unfair to be the only ranged class that can't do it-- since it's the most powerful "healable" attack in the game.
We get "dizzy" attacks! Whoot! No one is afraid of dizzy. And no one goes out and tools themselves a defensive character out of fear of peeing their pants in its presence.
Flick
If the TKA was using unarmed attack 3, then he must have been a master.
Why did it take 10 minutes? Because it was a test you momo. We stoped so he could get his HAM back because he was running out so fast. Actually if I remember right, without looking at the logs, the test was a hell of alot longer then 10 min.
If you would have spent even 5 min looking at the logs 90% of the test was done against underhand shot, and only a few attacks by pistoleers melee defense 1. So how you get that melee D was the main factor is beyond me. Unless you have some proff that melee/ranged D can effect if knockdown lands after taking damage from the actual attack I chalk your statement up as being ill informed on how the system works.
Do you expect me to disagree with you that knockdown is not stronger then dizzy? Well ofcourse it is, way to state the obvious. The diffrence is you take KD away from a Pistoleer he gets owned, you take dizzy away from a Rifleman he is just fine. Cant you understand that already? Master Rifleman > Master Pistoleer without KD, plain and simple no debating it.
Right about now you are saying SEE that proves my point YOU are forced to take a skill to stop a overpowered attack. I say this, what can a master pistoleer do to stop a Strafe shot 2 if they cant use KD? Nothing absolutely nothing. At least we have a option, no one else can do squat but hope we miss, because short of eye shot, we have the highest DPS period at Master. Only thing between Rifleman and the Nerf bat is Knockdown you can disagree with me but I believe its true.
That leads me to my last point. Rifleman is just a profession it does not take up 100% of your skill points, it is not a "class", it is just a small fraction of what your character is, less then 40% of available skill points. NOTHING is stoping you from getting knockdown, you have 157 points to be exact to get it yourself. My point is very simple no one is forcing you to do anything, but to think that you should at 93 skill points used be able to compare templates is wrong. That log is just one of many ways you can combat KD, but for my template it was the only way I could show it could be done, that doesnt mean it is the only way.
No it doesnt. Take a look at the logs and you will see where I was shot by underhand shot for X amount of damage, but I was not knocked down.
Silver Lobo,
You're wrong Lobo. At numerous levels.
Knockdown if far, far, far, farfrom being the only advantage of the pistoleer over the rifleman.Uber-accuracy from anywhere within 64 meters is one difference. Pistoleers are accurate with a weapon that shouldn't be fired from across the battlefield-- period.
Pistoleers suffer no 3X penalties from up close attacks while using their weapon because they dont have to go prone to use itaccurately.
Pistoleers can do a variety of special attacks which are all healable by stimpacks. Rifleman cannot heal after usingspecials without sitting down. Six special attacks from a rifleman and it's over-- they've bascially incapped themselves. The other professions, included melee can just keep going as long as they have stims.
I love going to Fort Tuskan in a group and watching everyone. They're out blasting away going from room to room, while I'm sitting in the corner waiting for my mind bar to return. I earn XP at about 1/5 rate because I have to sit my fanny down to recoup mind.
By the way, the rifleman profession is supposed to overpower pistoleers in ranged combat. That's why soldiers don't fight their battles with pistols unless indoors or in close quarters combat. Duh.
Flick
This was a discussion based from a PvP stand point. Your points, some being valid, just dont apply to this discussion.