Rifleman Archive

On the subject of stupidity...

Lobo -

I don't agree with the idea that a BH is paying all those skill points to be better at a carbine than a carbineer, or better at a pistol than a pistoleer, etc. My view is that they are paying those skill points for VARIETY. (and a unique revenue stream from BH missions, and some unique skills, and a unique weapon, etc)

So I don't agree with the assertion that they should be able to beat a rifleman every time because of the amount of skill points they spent on BH. If that's the way the game is designed, the game sucks. In time, everyone who likes pvp will simply become a BH. You just can't design that way.

But that's beside the point, because a pistoleer gets knockdown too, and so does a carbineer. There's nothing that a pistoleer or cabineer has to spec in specifically to avoid a rifleman attack. So why should a rifleman be different?

"Only people who lose all the time say there is no skill involved. As a rifleman I have beaten groups of 5 or more on many occasions. It's not luck. It's not a "learned response".

That's just... stupid."

No, what's stupid is moronic people changing their position while dizzy. And whats even more stupid is you referencing them as skilled.

First off you arnt going to get off the hook when you say "I have killed groups of 5 on occassion" So let me see if I get this right. If you lose then it is because knockdown is overpowered, but if you kill 5 people it is your amazing skill using a sub par class? **edit** it is getting deep in here.

Got to love when peoples ego's get hurt that they have to proclaim their amazing skill in killing legions of enemies, but at the same time say over and over that their class is underpowered. So Taco should you be able to kill 10 to 1 odds or 20 before rifleman in your eyes is on par? Any credability you might have had is gone with the above statement.

Now lets look at your last post. I will try to make this as clear as I can. Take KD away from Master Pistoleer and Carbineer and any Master Rifleman will win. This is not even something that can be debated, it is fact and we all know it.

I am sorry that you cant accept that this game is based on who has the higher skill. Higher skill means more xp earned, more time played, and more spec points used. If someone spends more spec points in combat, I know this is a shocker, but they will end up being better in combat. That you think at Master this should just stop is wrong, you have over 150 points left to spend, you havnt even used half your spec points but you think you should be able to hang with someone that spends 250 in combat skills? Why dont we just have novice brawlers being on par with Master TKA's then?

Lastly to say that I MUST follow the pre designed template that SOE made is idiotic. To say that because the template I have chosen doesnt fall under a profession then it must be disregarded as a credable alternative to the cookie cutter classes already in game.

You can argue with me, get pissed at me, ignore me for all Icare. The fact of the matter is this, KD can be stopped,I have told you how. If you want to ignore it go right ahead, but I promise that for every uneducated "nerf" KD thread I will be their voicing my opposition.

Thanks silverlobo for actually doing a test. Its good to see that the resist work. I agree that if you want to resist knockdown you should probably search the resist trees. But i think there is something more to this probably. Im a master sniper/master swordsman and have done pvp alot. To many times i see knockdown be the deciding factor in the match and not actual skill.
But lets look at the facts. Lets say that you have a ton of resist and block 75% of knockdowns. Even if you are blocking 75%, most classes that have a knockdown can spam atleast 4 times in about 4 to 6 seconds. The problem i see with knockdown right now is that one succesfully landed knockdown attack can leave you unable to attack for the rest of the fight. If dizzied you are left unable to stand up or attack until the dizzy wears off. And if you are low blowed or Pistol whipped , you are unable to attack for 15 seconds times the amount of times they do it. I don't mind getting knocked down, it just when im left unable to do anything that pisses me off. I haven't played the game since a few days after the big patch because ive been moving, but i take it that KnockDown is still causing problems. Bottom line for me is that I do not think that it will be neccessary to waste a ton of skill points on knockdown resist if they fix it. Its cool that you were able to mod your character that way, but it kind of shows that kd is a little to powerfull if it is forcing everyone to go way out of their path to elite professions to get it.

Lobo -

It's true... when I lose it's almost always due toknockdown (specifically the knockdown bug, where the timers stack) or the BH eyeshot, which does mind damage at 3 times my DPS. In those "fights" there's no way to know who's the better player. It's just a waste of time.

Supposedly at master it suddenly tips in our favor, when we get this ridiculous speed increase out of nowhere and end up shooting the T21 once per second... that's not a working system. There needs to be a gradual increase, not a total flipflop at master.

Instead of posting your BS Lobo...Why don't you tell me what extraprofessions a Pistoleer, Carbineer, and a BH have to take to counter ONE of our skills.

Ya thats what I thought. None. There needs to be a little something called balance. I need to spec a certain way to be effective because ONE of their abilities is overpowered but they don't spec to counter my abilities? BTW, BHs may master two other professions, BUT to get to master they do not have to earn more combat xp OR total weapons xp than a Master rifleman. So why should they be SO superior in combat than a profession that needs more of it to get to master? Those scouting skills are suppose to apply to the "hunter" aspect of the BH profession. Its what makes them unique. Not that they can own anyone on the battlefield. Its how they track down and "hunt" their marks.

Sorry but these are the RIFLEMAN boards. You are saying that in order to compete with a Master Pistoleer or Carbineer I have to take random tiers from OTHER professions? And you say something is wrong with my thinking? Please...Get a clue.

I agree that someone who invests a **edit** load into BH should have a marked advantage in PvP combat. But, as the game stands now that advantage is inordinately high. One knockdown and your dead, end of story. With a good pistol they can launch about 8 knockdown attempts in 10 seconds. If a BH has a combat advantage I still should have some chance (albeit lower) of defeating him. In its current state a Rifleman has a very low success rate in killing the BH. So much so that BH's (Pistoleers) have grown to dominate the PvP scene. Basically what I'm trying to say is BH's SHOULD be better than the other combat classes in PvP, but not so much so as you have little chance of defeating him.

Google I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree with your conclussion.

They put defense vs knockdown in the game for a reason to remove knockdown you also remove a reason to have the defense. You remove the ability for all of us to decide what we want to do with our character. If you want to be Mr. PvP then spec for it is all I am saying. If you want to dabble in healing and armor smithing please dont come here expecting that you will be able to competewith the few, and yes few, people that will go 100% combat.

I am not arguing that pistoleer is weaker then rifleman, I agree that straight up right now a Master in both classes, a pistoleer has a better chance of winning. But take both of these classes and add other combat capabilities and theRiflemanstarts to surpase the pistoleer because we can find ways to defeat their best attack, knockdown. In return a pistoleer cant do squat to stop that 800+ strafe shot 2.

In closing just because thereare cookie cutter professions doesnt mean everyone has to use them. SOE gave us the ability to train whatever we wanted, but like anything there is give and take. Like I have said so many times before if KD effects your "fun" factor stop complaining and do something about it, set your character up to defend against it.

So where are the Rifleman/doctor boards, or the Pistol/Novice BH, and the flavor of the month, Rifleman/CH board? Are you trying to tell me that the for mentioned combinations are done for giggles? They are done to to enhance the persons combat ability.

You fail to address that after Mastering a weapon you have 157 points, you continue to dodge this. You want to only rate Master profession vs Master profession and you just cant do that. There is 157 more points for each person to spend before their template is done, then and only then can you determine which is better. You look at your character as a Master Rifleman but in reality that profession hasnt even used 40% of your available skill points. You can not truthfully lable anyone as strickly a Master Rifleman or Master whatever, because I gurantee they have other skills trained.

You might not like the idea, but continuing to close your eyes and cover your ears to the truth wont change the fact that KD can be stoped.

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SilverLobo wrote:

This is a pure cut a paste, so there is some other things we tested but you will see that knockdown defense works, ranged defense works. I have +50 to defense vs knockdown and +49 to ranged D.

For the people that dont want to read through this I will spell out the particulars:

Missed shots: 8

Knock Down resisted: 18

Knockdown landed: 14

Going by these numbers Ikenn would have roughly 33% chance of landing a knock down each round.

Conclussion: If you dont spec for defense then you cant whine about being knockdown. The skill works, it is your choice to spec for it or not.

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Would you mind informing the rest of us what your spec is to get +50 defence vs knockdown?

Hmm, pistoleers get Pistol Whip? Rifleman should get Stock Smash. Where the rifleman hits the opponent in the head, does mind damage, and knocks them down with the butt of the rifle.

It's cool that you can get good resists to KD.

IMHO the problem is that in order to defend against it, you are REQUIRED to pick up other random skills just to get the various +10s to knockdown. Other than the knockdown bonuses, the skills really aren't all that valuable if you want to be a rifleman. It's just "wasted" points. It's the definition of unbalanced when one class has to go well out of it's way to counter a single attack by another class (you never see BH/pistoleers really worrying about rifleman attacks to the same extent). You can tell that it's unbalanced just by looking at the distribution of player classes in PvP. It's almost entirely pistoleers and BH who love to spam knockdown. In a balanced game, you should expect more balance in the profession choices.

One other problem is the rate of fire of the KDs. Sure you resist 70+% of them, but they fire around4 shots to your one in most cases. So, you're going down somewhere between your first and second shot. Throw in a knockdown and a dizzy and the fight just ended. And there are Area Effect knockdowns, so they drop you while fighting your groupmate. You have to resist all the ones fired at you(while prone even)and the guy 10m away. One person with an Area effect knockdown can keep a whole group of players unable to respond for most of the battle.

Lobo, your post just proves our point. We have to take random skills from other professions but they don't have to do the samein order todefend against us. OBVIOUS sign of unbalance.