Rifleman Archive

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RebRifle wrote:

Carbines are rifles in classification the only difference between a rifle and carbine are they are more compaced, usually having a shorter barrel and folding stock. Also smaller rounds

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A carbine is not a rifle. Carbines existed before Rifles were in common use. The early carbines were used by mounted troops such as Dragoons and were NOT rifled. They were smoothbore, just like the muskets. At the time you had a far better chance of finding a Carbine in a military unit than you did finding a Rifle.

Nor do carbines use smaller rounds. The M16A2 (Assault Rifle) and the M4 (Assault Carbine) both use the exact same round. Same goes for the Soviet AK and their Carbineversions.Even in WWII the M1 Garand and the M1 Carbine both used a .30 round. Though the M1 Garand used a more powerful one (.30-06 vs .30 carbine). But that isn't a smaller round. Carbines and Rifles generally fire the same calibre. You may be thinking of SMGs (which would fall under Carbine in SWG) however those rounds are technically a larger calibre, they are however less powerful since they use Pistol ammo.

A carbine by definition has a shorter barrel (not usually, always). They are used in situations where size could be a hinderance such as vehicle crews, pilots, airborne, and cavalry troops. They are also used in CQB situations where their smaller size is more advantageous while their reduced range is less of a factor.

Cpl wrote :

I can think of a machine gun, a rifle, and a carbine in regular use in the US armories that all fire not only all the same round, but can also all use the same magazine.

SAW, M16A2, M4. You could also go back to WWII where we have

British : Bren (LMG), Lee Enfield No4 MkI (rifle), Lee Enfield No5 (carbine)

Soviet : DP (LMG), Mossin-Nagant 91/30 (rifle), M44 (carbine)

German : MG34 or MG42 (GPMG), Mauser K98k (rifle), Mauser K98k Mountain version (carbine)

All the above use the same ammo between the three groups. Even after the war you would commonly find this with the 7.62mm NATO asthis always helps simplify the supply situation.

I could have included the WWII US arms in there too. They all fired a .30 round. However the carbine fired adifferent cartridge (.30 carbine instead of .30-06). Don't know my Japanese weapons well enough. So they may have been included there too which would have been all the major powers with the same calibre between their machine gun, rifle, and carbine.

Go back to the smoothbore days and you will also find examples of muskets and carbines of the same calibre.

Message Edited by Waste93 on 02-03-2005 04:59 AM

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SickSix wrote:

About Assualt rifles......You would call those Carbines really. If we had closer range Assualt rifles, i think that would take away from the Carbineers.

Maybe a long range rapid fire weapon? Like a machine gun...Mode1 and 2 damage (post CU) but no very powerful specials.

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No you wouldn't. An Assault Rifle is a Rifle, that is why it's called an Assault Rifle. A Carbine is something else. And yes there are Assault Carbines. Carbine is a term based on the barrel length. Assault means the weapon is capable to select fire (semi-auto and full-auto or burst fire)They are distinctly different. We've had this dicussion here repeatedly.

We have a machine gun. It's the T21. Look at the background info on it. It is a light machine gun. A LMG is about all we could ask for. Going heavier than that would be Commando weapon territory.

Message Edited by Waste93 on 02-03-2005 04:55 AM

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Cpl_Fisher wrote:

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RebRifle wrote:

Carbines are rifles in classification the only difference between a rifle and carbine are they are more compaced, usually having a shorter barrel and folding stock. Also smaller rounds

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I can think of a machine gun, a rifle, and a carbine in regular use in the US armories that all fire not only all the same round, but can also all use the same magazine.

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RebRifle wrote:


I said in some instances, all US amunition is now standerdized. Pistol-Submachine Gun 9mm, Rifle-Carbine 5.65mm, SAW 7.62NATO, Snipers Rifles Have 2 the 7.62+50cal, Machine Gun .50

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SAW is 5.56mm not 7.62mm. M60(machinegun)is 7.62mm. M2HB .50 BMG.

Defenition of a carbine "a light short-barreled repeating rifle that is used as a supplementary military arm"

That definition is incorrect. Like I said earlier. Carbines were in common use during the Napoleonic Wars when Rifles were not in common useage. Rifles were not standard weapons until American Civil War when the percussion cap and minnie ball made them so.

Carbine just means short barreled. If it means what you say then there are also no rifle, and hence no carbines, in SWG. Simply because there wouldn't be rifling on energy weapons. They don't need rifling. With the possible exception of the Tusken Rifle and Nyms Carbine.

Also during the American Civil War and the Indian Wars. Cavalry units used single shot percussion carbines. Those also wouldn't fit the definition since they aren't 'repeating'. Repeating weapons were not really possible until the self contained cartridge was used. Revolver type weapons are not considered 'repeating' in case you are wondering.

Yes I know the definition you are using is Websters. However they are incorrect in this case. As can be easily demonstrated. If that definition is correct, then there could not have been any carbines until the 20th century, or very late 19th. Which we can show isn't the case.

Message Edited by Waste93 on 02-03-2005 06:20 PM

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RebRifle wrote:
My mistake got the 2 mixed up. Anyway the definitionof the carbine evolves. If we used the definition of a rifle that was used just 200 years ago every pistol, or machine gun would be called a rifle because it has rifling.

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No they wouldn't. A pistold doesn't have a stock which is a requirement for a rifle. And a machine gun is full auto support weapon.

Definition of a Rifle is a 'A shoulder weapon with a rifled barrel'. Rifling alone does not make it a Rifle.Pistol isn't shoulder fired and neither is a MG. Some MGs don't even have a stock (M2HB). Nor are you likely to fire a MG from the shoulder while standing. At least not if you want to keep standing.

Nor does the definition of carbine evolve if the new meaning excludes that where it originally came from. It can be expanded, but not changed to eliminate the original meaning. Webster just had a bad definition in this case.

carbine

• noun 1 a light automatic rifle. 2 historical a short rifle or musket used by cavalry.

— ORIGIN French carabine, from carabin ‘mounted musketeer’.

/drgoon/

• noun 1 a member of any of several British cavalry regiments. 2 historical a mounted infantryman armed with a carbine.

• verb coerce into doing something.

— ORIGIN originally denoting a kind of carbine or musket, thought of as breathing fire: from French dragon ‘dragon’.

this was a little wierd but now I can call my Carbineer brother a Carabiniere (pronounciation is cooler)

/karrbinyairi/

• noun (pl. carabinieri pronunc. same) a member of the Italian paramilitary police.

— ORIGIN Italian, ‘soldier armed with a carbine’.

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Ackehece wrote:

btw how did we end up on this topic?

CARBINE (Fr. carabine, Ger. Karabiner) , a word which came into use towards the end of the 16th century to denote a form of small firearm, shorter than then a regularmusket and chiefly used by mounted men particularly in France. It has retained this significance, through all subsequent modifications of small-arm design, to the present day, and is now as a rule a shortened and otherwise slightly modified form of the ordinary rifle.

carbine

• noun 1 a light automatic rifle. 2 historical a short rifle or musket used by cavalry.

— ORIGIN French carabine, from carabin ‘mounted musketeer’.

dragoon

/drgoon/

• noun 1 a member of any of several British cavalry regiments. 2 historical a mounted infantryman armed with a carbine.

• verb coerce into doing something.

— ORIGIN originally denoting a kind of carbine or musket, thought of as breathing fire: from French dragon ‘dragon’.

this was a little wierd but now I can call my Carbineer brother a Carabiniere (pronounciation is cooler)

carabiniere

/karrbinyairi/

• noun (pl. carabinieri pronunc. same) a member of the Italian paramilitary police.

— ORIGIN Italian, ‘soldier armed with a carbine’.

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Probably because this is one of my two major pet peeves in regards to Rifle myths.

Good finds on the definitions. Though I have to point out that the second definition (first part) is in error. Not all carbines are 'automatic'. Probably the first 'automatic' carbine was the M2 Carbine which came out late WWII.

Oddly 'automatic' has a different meaning when used with pistols as compared to other weapons. An 'automatic' pistl is one that loads itself between shots. What is generally called a semi-auto or self loading weapon. Which is why the old Colt M1911 is considered an 'automatic'. The round it fires is the .45 ACP (ACP means Automatic Colt Pistol). With other weapons it is used in reference to the firing. An 'automatic' is a weapon that fires three or more rounds per single pull of the trigger. It leads to confusion rather frequently.

If you are curious why it's three rounds or more per single trigger pull. The answer it was done this way so that double barreled shotguns wouldn't be included in the automatic category. As in a number of models you can fire both barrels with a single trigger pull.

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Waste93 wrote:

Good finds on the definitions. Though I have to point out that the second definition (first part) is in error. Not all carbines are 'automatic'. Probably the first 'automatic' carbine was the M2 Carbine which came out late WWII.

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Ackehece wrote:

the funny thing about that is.... that is the Oxford English Dictionary definition - considered the best dictionary in the world by most eytmology majors but it is the abridged edition so it might be missing the major part of their definition.

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Waste93 wrote:

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Ackehece wrote:

the funny thing about that is.... that is the Oxford English Dictionary definition - considered the best dictionary in the world by most eytmology majors but it is the abridged edition so it might be missing the major part of their definition.

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Could also be a difference between American English and British (Commonwealth) English. Wouldn't surprise me much if that was the case.

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