Rifleman Archive
Thread: Rifle Speed Cap Change?
Waste93 wrote:
Both Commando and BH have Master Marksman as a pre-req. Which means they have both HeadShot and MindShot. It also means they have the Jawa cert.
Is it as effective as a Rifleman? No. But it is a possibility that is often overlooked.
OMG - A Master Armorsmith/Merchant/Artisan can target the mind pool directly and have the Jawa cert!!!one!11eleven!!!11 Nerf them.
Message Edited by MochaF on 10-20-2004 02:19 PM
ForceDisturbance wrote:
This isn't even close to the truth. After picking up Master Carbs and BH Carbs, you have 61 SP remaining. You can't come close to master an elite melee prof (I believe it leaves you about 32 SP short). So, no, a BH/Carbineer can not pick up any defenses worth a crap.
If you are taking the entire BH carbine line you are wasting SP if you goal is speed. At BH Carbine III you are at +105 speed. As anything over +100 is lost there is no real reason to take the IV box. You can even drop the III box and be sitting at +85. Which leaves you with 63 or 66 SP's. You aren't going to Master a melee profession with that. But you can pick up the defensive line of one.
Don't forget you can pick up defense from Pistoleer or even Rifleman.
Try this template and check the defenses. Master Carbineer, Master Marksman, Scout 4/0/0/0, Pistoleer 0/0/4/4, BH 0/0/2/0, Rifleman 0/0/0/4. That leaves you with 12 SP's.
Message Edited by Waste93 on 10-20-2004 03:24 PM
Waste93 wrote:
Try this template and check the defenses. Master Carbineer, Master Marksman, Scout 4/0/0/0, Pistoleer 0/0/4/4, BH 0/0/2/0, Rifleman 0/0/0/4. That leaves you with 12 SP's.
First column your template / second column Master Rifle/Fencer 4440/TKA0300/Pistols 0040(this leaves you with 15 skill points)
Blind +40 / 100
Posture Change +20 / 130
Counterattack +140 / Block +70
Dizzy +40 / 95
KD +65 / 120
Stun +40 / 65
Melee Defense 82 / 111
Ranged Defense +42 / 143
Message Edited by MochaF on 10-20-2004 02:38 PM
Message Edited by MochaF on 10-20-2004 02:39 PM
Exactly. Quit trying to blindly defend your position. You have no ground to stand on here. Rifleman/anything is greater than carbineer/bh carbines or your template which is about all a carbineer can do for defenses without +25 in speed attachments. Accept the fact that in the current system, rifleman are overpowered. Like Kilon, I don't scream nerf, just some sort of balancing. As for the master marksman thing, come on man. That isn't even an argument. Yes they can attack mind with the jawa, but ineffectively at best. A commando choosing to use a Jawa and headshot 2 needs to have their freakin head checked. Anyone would own them.
MochaF wrote:
Waste93 wrote:
Try this template and check the defenses. Master Carbineer, Master Marksman, Scout 4/0/0/0, Pistoleer 0/0/4/4, BH 0/0/2/0, Rifleman 0/0/0/4. That leaves you with 12 SP's.
First column your template / second column Master Rifle/Fencer 4440/TKA0300/Pistols 0040(this leaves you with 15 skill points)
Blind +40 / 100
Posture Change +20 / 130
Counterattack +140 / Block +70
Dizzy +40 / 95
KD +65 / 120
Stun +40 / 65
Melee Defense 82 / 111
Ranged Defense +42 / 143
Message Edited by MochaF on 10-20-2004 02:38 PM
Message Edited by MochaF on 10-20-2004 02:39 PM
Iefaot Womi ¤ IEBO Fix armor & buffs. BH/Carbines beats Rifleman/Anything except possibly Rifleman/Doctor. However, the popular /stand, /healstate macro is technically an exploit, so a smartBH/Carbineer should be able to handle the situation. You think Riflemen fire too fast? If they are firing at the cap maybe. If you think a regular MR with no exta speed is too fast, you are being misinformed. If you don't like the current speed equation, good for you. I don't like it either. It needs to be changed and it will be. Rifleman may even get less speed at Master- good newsfor you
ForceDisturbance wrote:
Exactly. Quit trying to blindly defend your position. You have no ground to stand on here. Rifleman/anything is greater than carbineer/bh carbines or your template which is about all a carbineer can do for defenses without +25 in speed attachments. Accept the fact that in the current system, rifleman are overpowered. Like Kilon, I don't scream nerf, just some sort of balancing. As for the master marksman thing, come on man. That isn't even an argument. Yes they can attack mind with the jawa, but ineffectively at best. A commando choosing to use a Jawa and headshot 2 needs to have their freakin head checked. Anyone would own them.
So you do not have a problem with Rifleman(because I really doubt you wanted Rifleman nerfed a year ago when we were just the same as we are now), but rather you want armor and buffs(possibly SEAs) nerfed. And in that you are correct.
Well, not good news for me since I'm going with the "can't beat em join em"
XaverriJade7 wrote:
Fix armor & buffs. BH/Carbines beats Rifleman/Anything except possibly Rifleman/Doctor. However, the popular /stand, /healstate macro is technically an exploit, so a smartBH/Carbineer should be able to handle the situation. You think Riflemen fire too fast? If they are firing at the cap maybe. If you think a regular MR with no exta speed is too fast, you are being misinformed. If you don't like the current speed equation, good for you. I don't like it either. It needs to be changed and it will be. Rifleman may even get less speed at Master- good newsfor you
ForceDisturbance wrote:
Exactly. Quit trying to blindly defend your position. You have no ground to stand on here. Rifleman/anything is greater than carbineer/bh carbines or your template which is about all a carbineer can do for defenses without +25 in speed attachments. Accept the fact that in the current system, rifleman are overpowered. Like Kilon, I don't scream nerf, just some sort of balancing. As for the master marksman thing, come on man. That isn't even an argument. Yes they can attack mind with the jawa, but ineffectively at best. A commando choosing to use a Jawa and headshot 2 needs to have their freakin head checked. Anyone would own them.
Now again, we need balance, not nerfs. Part of that is armor/buffs/food and part of it is AP3 weapons hitting the only unhealable pool (cm heals don't coun't cause they suck really). Mind, in my opinion, should be unattackable. Make everything go after health and we have a little more balance, but I'm sure there are plenty of great ideas out there and this is another discussion altogether. My whole point was to refute the numbers given out in previous posts. They were misinformed and any pvper on any server will tell you that rifleman is greater than any other ranged prof hands down. Part of that is the fact that rifleman can stack defenses with minimal attachments (not none, just minimal) while a carbineer needs +25 to cap. Anyway, just making a point and I certainly hold no animosity toward anyone on this forum or rifleman in general. Hell, as I stated, I becoming one.you see, carbines are not about damage, they are about state defenses, and they are damn good at it. in all honesty, a skilled bh/mcarbine template would not have much trouble beating a rifleman... here is why:
as a solo rifleman you have:
[*] No Knockdown Defense
[*] No Defense VS Dizzy
[*] 72 ranged defense, not quite enough to make a large difference in pvp
[*] 30 LESS accuracy than a 0400 bh, mcarbine template
carbiners are very good at getting you to be less accurate, less defensive, and on your back.
imo, the only reasons carbines are not a viable option is due to the common misconception that stun damage is the end all in PvP, and the lack of a mind damage special, on of the better carbines, is in fact acid, the most potent damage type in the game, as although it is highly resisted, there is no resist against it with a psg
in all honesty, the fact that a rifleman can stack defenses with other professions is completely irrelevant. heres why:
block sucks. dont even get me started on block.
ANY profession can stack defenses with another profession, just master it... add 0040 pistoleer and/or 4400 fencer... and there you go.
now please... go bother the armorsmiths about armor, doctors and chefs about buffs, and core systems about defense stacking, pool targeting and such.
dimmu-borgir wrote:
clearly, by comparing carbines and rifles only in terms of speed and defenses, especially since you are borrowing defenses from other professions, which, imo, is not a rifleman problem.
you see, carbines are not about damage, they are about state defenses, and they are damn good at it. in all honesty, a skilled bh/mcarbine template would not have much trouble beating a rifleman... here is why:
as a solo rifleman you have:
[*] No Knockdown Defense
[*] No Defense VS Dizzy
[*] 72 ranged defense, not quite enough to make a large difference in pvp
[*] 30 LESS accuracy than a 0400 bh, mcarbine template
carbiners are very good at getting you to be less accurate, less defensive, and on your back.
imo, the only reasons carbines are not a viable option is due to the common misconception that stun damage is the end all in PvP, and the lack of a mind damage special, on of the better carbines, is in fact acid, the most potent damage type in the game, as although it is highly resisted, there is no resist against it with a psg
in all honesty, the fact that a rifleman can stack defenses with other professions is completely irrelevant. heres why:
block sucks. dont even get me started on block.
ANY profession can stack defenses with another profession, just master it... add 0040 pistoleer and/or 4400 fencer... and there you go.
now please... go bother the armorsmiths about armor, doctors and chefs about buffs, and core systems about defense stacking, pool targeting and such.
Last post on this because some of you will never get it. Now, as a master carbineer you have:
No Def vs. Dizzy
+15 Def vs Knockdown (equates to 0 in pvp)
+105 Counterattack (not capped, but the only decent def for a carbineer)
+27 Ranged Def (pales in comparison to rifles)
No Melee Def
+60 carbine speed (you need +20 to +25in speed attachments to cap cripple shot - my original argument)
You are right about one thing. You go strictly rifleman (in which case you have no idea how to pvp) in pvp and as a carbineer with BH or attachments I would chew you up easily. However, you go Rifleman/Fencer/some pistoleer and you own me completely. It isn't a rifleman problem per se, that you can cap speed and stack def. I was merely pointing out that rifleman have an inherant advantage over other ranged profs and becasue of this they own pvp. Also, acid is somewhat potent in the game due to a vulnerability on the psg. Now, a AP 3 T-21 cuts through a psg and armor with little problem. Not to mention, you aren't going to get much better than a mid 300-400 dmg (and this is a nice krayt one) DXR-6 while a pvp T-21 will hit over 700 dmg easy.
I never intended to piss a few of you off like this, but you need to play the other side for once. I merely wanted to point out inaccuracies in previous posts.
Anyway, I'm coming to your side now for a little change. I'm looking forward to it too since I've never been a rifleman or a swordsman before. Maybe it'll keep this game interesting for a little longer. So, no hate from me I assure you. I was just stating some truths about carbineers
ForceDisturbance wrote:
Now, a AP 3 T-21 cuts through a psg and armor with little problem. Not to mention, you aren't going to get much better than a mid 300-400 dmg (and this is a nice krayt one) DXR-6 while a pvp T-21 will hit over 700 dmg easy.
T21 is energy. Which is one of the most common resists in the game. In PvP what is the average Energy resist on Composite? About 70-80% ?.
The T21 usually has a max damage of about 410. Lets assume a powerup and damage slice of 30%. Max damage is now 693. StrafeShot2 (highest damage mod)brings that to 3465. AP bonus to 5405 (AP3 vs AR1). Resists (80%)brings it to 1081. Followed by PvP reduction which ends it at 270. Factor in the 1.5 multiplier and it's 405. Well short of the 700 easy you claim.
Assuming a lower 70% resist on the armor brings it to 608 damage. Still short. And both those numbers are without the PSG reduction which would reduce it further.
If you know someone that is getting 700 PvP damage easy. It probably isn't a player crafted T21. More likely it's a looted weapon.
This isn't even close to the truth. After picking up Master Carbs and BH Carbs, you have 61 SP remaining. You can't come close to master an elite melee prof (I believe it leaves you about 32 SP short). So, no, a BH/Carbineer can not pick up any defenses worth a crap.
Waste93 wrote:
ForceDisturbance wrote:
The difference is a rifleman needs only +5 to +7 in speed tapes. A carbineer needs all +25 in most cases. Yes, you are required to get tapes while carbineers can ick up BH carbs. However, by doing so carbineers leave themselves defensless. Rifleman can get a few tapes and then pick up a melee prof and become a def stacker. Believe me, I'm looking forward to buying a couple of tapes and being able to be a melee prof as well instead of wasting all my SP on ranged professions that can't hunt any high level MOB effectively and can barely touch jedi.
Yes a Carbineer may need +25. However can pick up BH to get that. Sure it costs some SP's. But you will still have enough to Master a melee profession for the defenses. Especially since they lowered the BH pre-reqs. But not only do you get speed from the BH line. You also get accuracy and new specials.
Is that a fair trade off? Some SP's for more speed, accuracy, and specials? That is up to each player to decide. Some will think it is. Others will say it isn't. But I wouldn't dismiss this line out of hand.
Do Carbineers and Pistoleers need a speed boost? Certainly.
5* for joo Kilon!
DarthVillanus wrote:
Lol it's really hilarious listening to all the rifleman try to explain why they are balanced and shouldn't be nerfed
I was a rifleman for 5 months. I don't support the nerfing of any profession but don't try and convince us that rifleman doesn't need changes/balances. True, most of the problems aren't with rifleman, but more with overpowered buffs/armor.
Doesn't the fact that most pvp'ers and pve'ers are rifleman tell you something? There's a reason rifles is so popular. You are the most powerful profession in the game.
You say carbineers may be slow but at least they can dabble in BH which rifleman can't do? All that does is hurt your case because what a rifleman can do with 92 skillpoints, it takes a carbineer 221 skillpoints to do.
You say you can't stack defenses like Carbineers? Utter bs. Rifleman is the best profession to stack defenses with.
Master rifleman
Master fencer
0/0/4/0 pistoleer
You cap on ranged defense and almost on melee defense. You also get +100 state defenses.
Right now rifleman is god. If a rifleman can't kill it, then it's immortal. Mind cost on specials used to balance riflemen, then along came brandy/canape/ahrisa/music buffs which make armor encumbrance and special cost totally void.
In the red highlighted text you are missing the point entirely. Kilon never said you get the state defenses from Rifleman. In fact, he showed the template where you get them, from Fencer and Pistoleer. The point of this is you CAN cap speed with minimal to no attachments AND hit +100 on state defenses AND cap ranged and almost melee. Carbineers, without +25 in attachments or a damn nice speed sliced krayt carbine, do not have this option. Picking up BH carbs does not allow for a melee profession. Your comment on the melee bonus when attacking rifleman is a bit off too. Since you can master a melee proffesion as well (say fencer), I'd assume you are smart enough to whip out a nice stun baton when a melee opponent gets close, thus negating the bonus.
Waste93 wrote:
DarthVillanus wrote:
Lol it's really hilarious listening to all the rifleman try to explain why they are balanced and shouldn't be nerfed
How is pulling the trigger on a rifle any different than doing so on a pistol or carbine? At Master all three should be at or just about at the cap.
How having the only ap1 stun weaponand only non-limited use ap3 weapon in the game is balanced. How you cansolely target the mind. How in pve, being as accurate at 0m as you are at 64m.
We can't solely target the Mind. So can TKA, BH, Commando, and Swordsman.
I was a rifleman for 5 months. I don't support the nerfing of any profession but don't try and convince us that rifleman doesn't need changes/balances. True, most of the problems aren't with rifleman, but more with overpowered buffs/armor.
Doesn't that mean then to fix the problem with buffs and armor? Nerfing Rifleman doesn't fix the buff/armor issue does it?
Doesn't the fact that most pvp'ers and pve'ers are rifleman tell you something? There's a reason rifles is so popular. You are the most powerful profession in the game.
Debatable. I'd say the melee professions are the most popular. Both Swordsman and TKA are excellent for PvE. While in PvP you will want a melee profession especially if hunting Jedi. Rifleman are probably the most popular ranged profession but that is in may ways a factor that Rifleman is mostly working. Which can't really be said of the other ranged professions.
You say carbineers may be slow but at least they can dabble in BH which rifleman can't do? All that does is hurt your case because what a rifleman can do with 92 skillpoints, it takes a carbineer 221 skillpoints to do.
You are off by about 40 SP's. You only need the first two or three boxes of BH Carbine line. Getting to the second box will give you Carbine speed +85, getting the third box jumps that to +105. Total cost of 184 or 187 SP's.
You say you can't stack defenses like Carbineers? Utter bs. Rifleman is the best profession to stack defenses with.
Master rifleman
Master fencer
0/0/4/0 pistoleer
You cap on ranged defense and almost on melee defense. You also get +100 state defenses.
Not quite. Block isn't the best secondary defense. Dodge and CounterAttack are much better since they avoid all damage. Also a dirty little secret. It's impossible for a Rifleman to cap melee defense. The reason being that melee have a bonus to hit Rifleman. Which means even with +125, their effective defense is lower.
If you are getting +100 defenses that isn't from Rifleman. Rifleman have very few state defenses. You got those stats from Fencer and Pistoleer. Which you can achieve with about any profession you stack those with.
Right now rifleman is god. If a rifleman can't kill it, then it's immortal. Mind cost on specials used to balance riflemen, then along came brandy/canape/ahrisa/music buffs which make armor encumbrance and special cost totally void.
Yep. Which again is an issue with buffs and food. Not Rifleman.
Message Edited by ForceDisturbance on 10-21-2004 09:16 AM