Rifleman Archive
Thread: The lovely Pistoleer Correspondent at work AGAIN!
Krups,
I cannot believe anyone else reads your posts.
I just posted 3 quotes, I took the time to search around, and show you, clearly, where I recognize this, yet you continue to accuse me of things you cannot, and do not, support.
That's the facts Krups. The rest is your usual jumble of nonsense.
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A. Get everyone involved in making sure speed is fixed "properly"
B. Attack Jaegen personally.
Krups choses B. I think that's speaks for itself. Thanks for proving my point.
What do you have to say to Noules Krups, is he under the mind control spell too, like the devs?
That fact is Krups, this is what I have done for pistoleers to date:
DA2 knockdown removed
PMD1: action cost drastically increased
PMD2: Action cost incorrectly, drastically increased.
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Wow, I've really got a hotline to the devs and am really "effective" at screwing riflemen, I mean, really. Right? Nothing but pistoleer nerfs have gone live so far.
Where is your evidence to support that they listen to me? Speed was not MY issue, it was everyone's issue, and it was pushed by a pistoleer/BH, not me. TKA had +115 speed, why Krups? Why could polearms at +75 not reach cap like the rest of the cool people? Why, why why...it was broken at high speeds (cap).
I'd like to see your responses to Noules and I, in breif form so we hear your arugment rather than the long winded obsfuscation (your word). Remove all your persona attacks, the allegations that you cannot support, and the emotion, and I want to see real, concrete reasons to back your flames on me.
"If I'm so mislead, I'd ask you to provide quotes and evidence to prove your point. Because I don't see Jaegen being out to 'get' riflemen in anyway."
Look at the enormous Pistoleer Petition that dominated General Discussion for several days. Look at the thread Jaegan chose to link on speed modification on the first page thereof. This is the sanitized thread, riddled with blatantly incorrect numbers, unsubstantiated suppositions, much heresay, much abstraction, much fabrication, and no evidence. Look up the thread of the same name posted on SWG General Discussion -- which generated considerable controversy -- examine the numbers provided by the opposition therein, which disprove the original calculations. For pages and pages, to the conclusion of the SWG General Discussion thread, the contrary calculations were not refuted -- and the input of many established the original numbers to have been wholely incorrect. Can you guess which thread Jaegan linked as 'proof'? And this does not strike you as the least bit disingenuous? The stated implication of that thread on speed modification was that Rifles are effected in an unbalancingly favorable way, with the obvious implication that they needed nerfing -- and yet, in supporting this statement, Jaegan is not out to get Rifleman?
"Pistoleers have plenty of valid complaints. They have no status effects. Their specials have the lowest DPS add of any class. More of their specials are broken than ours. Right now rifle DPS is far greater than pistoleer at master, and we do AE damage to boot. While pistol is easier to use because of the range mods and smaller melee penalty, there is NO reasonable way you can argue that the advantages are all one-sided, because they aren't. I can outdamage a master pistoleer any day, and I can do it in an AE area. I can also AE stun so I take less damage, and I can AE dizzy to assist the rest of my group."
I'm a Master Rifleman, and a Master Marksman, and when I engage a Master Pistoleer in P v P, I will most likely lose. Sheer damage is not the only consideration -- and that is the exact fact the thread on speed modification, which Jaegan embraced as axiomatic, refused to accept. Yes, Rifles may enjoy a 50% damage superiority, but only over the first few seconds of the confrontation -- Riflemen will run out of HAM at a far greater rate, and the Pistol-user will enjoy a higher overall damage, simply because he is able to continue styling for a much longer time. There were calculations on, I believe, page 7 or 8 of the old Speed Modification thread establishing this -- calculations which Jaegan could not possibly allow the Developers to consider, prompting the presentation of the "clean" thread from a different forum. Which, quite simply, gave the Developers the impression that we do something like eight times the damage of a Pistoleer in the end game.
"I'm confused why you think Jaegen has some sort of magic influence over the devs. I'm pretty sure he doesn't. If he did, Disarm2 would probably AE KD still (IIRC, Jaegen petitioned to get that removed if it wasn't intended) and their specials wouldn't be broken, and they'd have a wider variety of attacks."
Jaegan does not have a magic sway -- he is, however, an intelligent, efficient, and determined correspondent, able to mobilize his community over even the most spurious allegations on a few moments' notice. When he is able to output dozens of pages in a Pistoleer petition bemoaning Rifleman speed, and the Developers announce a few days later that they are nerfing Rifleman speed, how exactly do you not see the correlation?
"Pistoleers are SIGNIFICANTLY worse now than at launch due to the KD nerfs and the Disarm2 fix (they always had problems, but two overpowered attacks covered them up)."
And, once again, I believe that Pistoleers deserve higher damage styles, better knockdowns, and a much better style at Master, if the speed changes do not go live. If they do, Pistol-users will be so unbalancingly overpowered that they will deserve a slew of nerfs. I would honestly much rather see speed remain as is, with improvements on the damage of Stopping Shot, Fan Shot, BS 3, reduction in HAM costs of the Pistol Melee Defense attacks, institution of a high damage, AoE attack at Master which also inflicts some variety of status effect upon everyone within the radius -- these are reasonable suggestions, great improvements for the Pistoleer class. But the empowerment of Pistoleers should not be achieved by delivering the coup de grace for Rifles and Riflemen.
Man, one day maybe you'll change your writing style. Your main argument is that things that I say are lip service. And things other people say arenot. It's a rhetorical argument, and has only emotion and false/unsupported claims to back it.
. Whether or not you agreed with it, you supported and compelled it. Qualms after the fact are irrelevant.
Anything said after the fact that nothing has changed..is irrelevant? You make absolutely no sense Krups, although I hesitate to point that out, since it's so obvious.
2. I do not support any Pistoleer nerfs unless the speed change goes live. I support higher damage modifiers for Stopping Shot, BS3 and a better AoE Master style for Pistoleer (some of which I believe the Developers have acceded to) but support only nerfs if such an unbalancing change as the speed nerf is implement, simply because, if it goes live, nerfs will be needed.
Agreed. Man, why do we have to pour through pages of your flames to agree on this one simple thing? Why can't you just read other posts of mine that say the exact..same...thing? Because you prefer to mislead, misdirect, etc., etc?I think it's better than that, I dont think speed should change the way they want it to, no one does. It doesnt fix hitting cap. it doesnt fix hitting cap. Maybe saying it twice will make it "real" rather than "lip service".
"Common courtesy -- you did everything you could to eviscerate the Rifleman class in the name of "balancing" speed. But we should avoid advocating nerfs after receiving one because that is not constructive; we should refrain from personally attacking after our whole class has been tarred, libelled, and personally assaulted; we should speak with courtesy and respect to the individual who offered unrevised, uncorrected numbers to the Developers fabricating an immense Rifle DPS and combat superiority which does not, and has never, existed. Yet the obligation falls upon us to trust. Unbelievable.
I assure you Krups, if I keep up with that negativity, it will eat you alive, or you'll be accused of crying wolf one too many times and be..ignored. Noules seems to think rifles have DPS superiority, what's your story? You were wrong about speed, and you were wrong about me. 2 for 2 Krups.
The speed equation really does need to change. Adding caps isn't a good solution, but the speed equation as it is now is a not a good solution, either. More reasonable changes have been suggested by various parties. Holo stated that the combat designer was on vacation, and thus nothing further would be done on the issue until he got back. You're correct that adding caps would be a horrible fix. Now please find the quote where Jaegen suggests those caps to the devs as being the right fix.
I'm also wondering why you think it's appropriate to attack Jaegen's character. You imply yourself that the character of the individual is not a valid point against an argument. Again, if you think Jaegen is incorrect about something, address the point, not the person.
Trigan wrote:
Guys, I think we better stop this flaming and counter-flaming, quotes and counter quotes. We should all work together and stop all the nerf-balancing acts that devs are doing. We should direct all our "concerns" at the devs instead of at ourselves. I want to thank everyone in advance to please drop this. Thank you
Here are my suggestions:
5.0 damage modifier for Stopping Shot
3.5 damage modifier for BS3.
Reduction of 50% in HAM costs for Pistol Melee Defense I and II.
Revamping of Disarming Shot II at Master as follows:
AoE attack radius: 15 meters
Style damage: 4.0
Style delay: 2.5
Status effect: All enemies within the area are unable to fire ('disarmed') for 2 seconds, (timer --each person can be effected only once in 30 seconds to prevent spamming).
High HAM cost.
Increase of 20% in the basedamage of the DX2.
I would consider these fair and balanced changes to increase the potency of the Pistoleer class (though it could overpower BH Pistol/Pistoleers further . . . but I'll overlook that, as they butcher me 100% of the time anyway).
The destruction of the Rifleman class, however, is not an ideal component in Pistoleer empowerment!
If the speed revision is dropped -- because it is unlikely to speed up Pistol-users, merely slow down Rifle-users -- then I would agree that Pistoleers could use a myriad of empowering improvements as listed above. If the speed change goes live, then Pistoleers will be sufficiently overpowered to deserve one helluva nerfing.
While the pistoleer is going to use a lot less HAM overall, you can't style when you're incapped. In PvP I'd much rather be able to dump out massive DPS for a short period of time than do moderate DPS over a long period of time, because that guy doing moderate DPS isn't going to survive long enough for his advantage to matter. Practically speaking, all my PvP experience as a master rifleman tells me that I'm a huge asset to my group. Given a few seconds I can bring down large groups pretty much solo.
If the caps were ALREADY in, you might have a point. As it is now, the caps aren't even on test, they haven't been coded (they're not even past design phase, because the designer is on vacation, as noted) yet Jaegen is suggesting that the caps NOT be put in. Perhaps he's extremely clever and/or has inside sources telling him that they're past the point of no return and he's clear to 'save face' - but I think a more believable reason is that he doesn't agree with the solution, even if he agrees with their evaluation of the problem.
"Man, one day maybe you'll change your writing style. Your main argument is that things that I say are lip service. And things other people say arenot. It's a rhetorical argument, and has only emotion and false/unsupported claims to back it."
No -- when you specifically tailor data in a way that will ensure the maximum possible benefit to the Pistoleer and maximum possible damage to the Rifleman, and afterwards claim that the change is undesirable, that is lip service, simply because your past actions speak stronger than your present words.
"Anything said after the fact that nothing has changed..is irrelevant? You make absolutely no sense Krups, although I hesitate to point that out, since it's so obvious."
What has changed is the Developers announced consideration of a change which you prompted, and which would destroy the Rifleman class. If you do not perceive an announced change in intention as any change whatsoever, then you should be a bit more cautious in branding others nonsensical.
"Agreed. Man, why do we have to pour through pages of your flames to agree on this one simple thing? Why can't you just read other posts of mine that say the exact..same...thing? Because you prefer to mislead, misdirect, etc., etc?I think it's better than that, I dont think speed should change the way they want it to, no one does. It doesnt fix hitting cap. it doesnt fix hitting cap. Maybe saying it twice will make it "real" rather than "lip service"."
Pages of flames? You were instrumental in the Developers' consideration of a change that would eviscerate our profession to an extremity never before seen in Star Wars Galaxies. Regardless of whether or not my denounciations belie genuine repentance or reformation on your part, you presented the flawed numbers which prompted the change. Cause and effect: you suggested its necessity, created a thread which spanned dozens of pages (kudos again on your ability to mobilize the community) and, a few days afterwards, the Developers announced a change to remedy the fallacious numbers you offered. If you genuinely want to remedy this disaster, then you seek to do the right thing -- but this is a disaster largely of your making, and absolution does not come from a few revisionist statements.
"I assure you Krups, if I keep up with that negativity, it will eat you alive, or you'll be accused of crying wolf one too many times and be..ignored. Noules seems to think rifles have DPS superiority, what's your story? You were wrong about speed, and you were wrong about me. 2 for 2 Krups."
Pardon?
I was right about you, because you offered incorrect data suggesting a change was necessary, and the Developers implemented the change. Unclear? Cause and effect.
I was right about speed -- you did not offer one solitary argument in the old speed modification thread -- which, considering the contradiction therein, you predictably chose not to link to the Developers -- that contradicted my arguments or contravened your numbers. Your entire point was that class balance was not an issue and speed should be looked at in and of itself to the detriment of Riflemen. Which has been blatantly disproven, since the entire controversy now raging proves that this is very much about class balance.
And, once again, you happily avoid discussion of the same fundamental point you avoided and avoided and avoided in the thread regarding speed modification. Rifles, under the current system, do have DPS superiority, but only in the first several seconds of the battle before they run out of HAM. If you look at the entire battle, the Pistol-user can keep styling while the Rifle user rests to regenerate, signifying that the former will do far more damage overall. Numbers proving this were presented in the SWG General Discussion speed modification thread -- which you, not surprisingly again, also failed to consider or refute.
The BH/pistoleer combo is a problem that needs to be fixed, and once carbineers are fixed a BH/carbineer will also become a problem. This needs to be fixed in a way that makes pure BHs, pure carbineers, and pure pistoleers still effective. Now it would be unfair to give no bonuses to BH/carbineers and BH/pistoleers so maybe something would have to be worked out to make them more balanced, something like they did to CHs which made your progress in the class much much more desirable, rather than just grabbing a few boxes in one branch. It would probably be easier to mix the BH trees together so one couldn't grab one branch for pistol and gain enormous modifiers without almost mastering BH. BH would still be effective, but a BH with good weapon skills couldn't master pistoleer.
Noules000 wrote:
Stopping shot already has a 5x damage multiplier. It's just that with a 4x delay, it's not a DPS efficient move.
No offense, but you don't know what you're talking about.
Stopping Shot does not have a 5.0x modifier -- this was a change announced as impending by the Developers, meaning we simply agree on this revision.
It does not have a 4x delay. I spent a month one box away from Master Pistoleer and, while I agree with the premise that, most of the time, it is not terribly DPS efficient (compared to Fan Shot, at least) the delay seems more in the range of 2.5-3x.
Notwithstanding that Pistol-users can cap speed and fire at that cap regardless -- how convenient that you would point out supposed Rifle damage superiority given cap speed, but maintain that Stopping Shot is inefficient despite cap speed.
And a rifle can hit aklick out. You think they are gonna put THAT in this game? good one....
Haldan wrote:
Umm Lodinn..
You can "hit the bullseye" with a stock handgun at 64m. You can tag a man-sized target all day at 100m with one. If you're in the Cincinnati area - PM me, we'll go to the range. I'll show ya.
Of course, that has JACK and **edit** to do with this game.