Rifleman Archive
Thread: The lovely Pistoleer Correspondent at work AGAIN!
Aden_Nak wrote:
Stargoo, next time you have something like that to say, do us all a favor. Get out a paper bag and scream into it until you feel better. Riflemen and Pistoleers already have enough tension without commends like those.
oh 1000" the pistoleer correspondent is and idiot" posts is ok with you, but as soon as someone points out the obvious you get offended? go away.
RUN AROUND AND SHOOT THINGS.
Good lord, that was entirelytoo difficult. Next week we'll be learning advanced pistol tactics, most of which involve running around and shooting lots of things, and possibly shooting some more things if we have time.
ZTI
*** Most of the Riflemen in this forum dont WANT an increased range unless the devs NERF our Speed to heck and back again. This is only to have SOME competition to you 6 to 1 shots and was counter offered to ONLY have that extra range boost when 1.) Under Cover, 2.) For us to be COMPLETELY IMMOBILE!!
Why not work on getting speed really fixed rather than this bogus solution the devs came up with? I have said, in every post where I mention speed since then, that I don't think anyone thought it was right to boost pistols by 2x max and knock rifles to 1/3. WE AGREE, I've posted this over and over. If that really goes live, you're right, you will probably get SMOKED by pistol users. However, the devs also said they will "look at the balance" of this and boost rifles, etc. Yes, we know they cannot reasonably boost it enough, that's why we should be helping the devs understand why they chose the wrong way to fix speed.
Aldeon is still specifically asking for a nerf to pistoleers in the form of accuracy reduction. That's fine as long as balance is taken into account. Pistoleers are NOT effective right now, sure BH/pistol is, but that takes all their skill points, just to fire as fast as a rifleman. You please tell me you're OK with someone suggesting targeted nerfs to your profession. Please, tell me I should be a shmuck and enjoy that.
The speed change has NOT yet happened, and frankly, I don't think you SHOULD let it go in like it is. neither do I think EYE should let it go in like it is. I offered to start showing clear logs and solutions to the devs on speed that show them why their current solution is NOT fixing anything, but I cannot hear myself think through all of the nerf calls to pistoleers from rifles, and all the personal attacks on me. And frankly, I'd prefer to see everyone help out. FOCUS on the issues, not nerfs to others. All the solutions are being posted by people, but no one pays attention, they'd much rather bash me for defending pistoleers from a nerf call from Aldeon...that's based not in pistoleers being too effective, but in wanting to make rifles more effective. And he offers nothing like "well yes, it's a nerf, so maybe you need a boost to short range DPS, etc." No, it's just "nerf pistoleer range".
The speed change has not happened. Don't let it happen. 3x vs .5, is dumb. It was known the second it was posted, it's still known now. Pistoleers will still hit the speed cap,but be twice as effecitve. That's broken. What about melees? Speed will still be broken, and rifles get the shaft with it. Why is that not clear?
Jaegan does what he needs to -- lie, obfuscate, misrepresent. Immoral? Maybe. But he is obviously an extremely effective advocate for his class, and all the coming, misbegotten rewards are derived from hours upon hours of painstaking deception on his part.
Don't even attempt to look at his posts logically. He once contended that Rifleman should support a look at balancing the speed modification, for 'fairness' -- the result being cutting Rifleman DPS by 2/3, thank you so much -- and, now, he maintains that, despite apparently being soon able to fire 6x as fast as Rifleman, there should be no further balancing changes. Why? Because he cannot be expected to get behind any alterations which would damage his class. Ridiculously, embarassingly stupid -- so grotesquely hypocritical -- but it is intentional. Jaegan can see through his shallow arguments and protestations -- but the Developers cannot, and that is the point. He is efficient, he is effective, and he is slowly driving nail after nail into the coffin of our class to "balance" Pistoleers.
More logic? There are many times the number of Novice Pistoleers as Novice Rifleman . . . because Pistoleer is more popular, it must be weaker . . . because Rifleman is unpopular, it must me omgoverpowered . . . thus Pistoleers should be given an improvement of 6x the DPS relative to Rifleman! Pure brilliance!
Jaegan's tired, singular argumentation was amply refuted in the original Speed Modification thread in the SWG General Discussion. A thread which he then summarily forgot about, choosing to link a sanitized version instead, presenting the original disproven numbers with the original disproven contentions as intact and trustworthy. Our class will now be receiving the Abner Louima treatment, courtesy of Jaegan and his Pistoleer friends, because, naturally, they could not be content militating for enormous increases in style damage without also asking for the destruction of our class.
The end result will likely be that Pistoleer speed will remain as it is, and Rifleman speed will drop to 1/3 of what it is. And that, according to Jaegan, is not a nerf -- it is balance. Revolting.
AldeonAvardulin wrote:
Hmm, the problem with Jaegens post is that is completely wrong. And on the Correspondant boards he goes and admits that all classes at master are accurate at all ranges. Funny how he says one thing there, and a totally different thing on the correspondant boards?
It's because Jaegan will lie to get what he wants. Morality aside, if he hadn't, these changes would never have been enacted, simply because they are so outrageously unbalanced.
Krupskaya wrote:Jaegan does what he needs to -- lie, obfuscate, misrepresent. Immoral? Maybe. But he is obviously an extremely effective advocate for his class, and all the coming, misbegotten rewards are derived from hours upon hours of painstaking deception on his part.
Don't even attempt to look at his posts logically. He once contended that Rifleman should support a look at balancing the speed modification, for 'fairness' -- the result being cutting Rifleman DPS by 2/3, thank you so much -- and, now, he maintains that, despite apparently being soon able to fire 6x as fast as Rifleman, there should be no further balancing changes. Why? Because he cannot be expected to get behind any alterations which would damage his class. Ridiculously, embarassingly stupid -- so grotesquely hypocritical -- but it is intentional. Jaegan can see through his shallow arguments and protestations -- but the Developers cannot, and that is the point. He is efficient, he is effective, and he is slowly driving nail after nail into the coffin of our class to "balance" Pistoleers.
More logic? There are many times the number of Novice Pistoleers as Novice Rifleman . . . because Pistoleer is more popular, it must be weaker . . . because Rifleman is unpopular, it must me omgoverpowered . . . thus Pistoleers should be given an improvement of 6x the DPS relative to Rifleman! Pure brilliance!
Jaegan's tired, singular argumentation was amply refuted in the original Speed Modification thread in the SWG General Discussion. A thread which he then summarily forgot about, choosing to link a sanitized version instead, presenting the original disproven numbers with the original disproven contentions as intact and trustworthy. Our class will now be receiving the Abner Louima treatment, courtesy of Jaegan and his Pistoleer friends, because, naturally, they could not be content militating for enormous increases in style damage without also asking for the destruction of our class.
The end result will likely be that Pistoleer speed will remain as it is, and Rifleman speed will drop to 1/3 of what it is. And that, according to Jaegan, is not a nerf -- it is balance. Revolting.
Apparently there are two Jaegen's posting, because I don't really see this at all. You seem to be completely ignoring pistoleer issues right now - if you pay attention to what they are saying, and if you have experience with what goes on in PvP, it's clear that pistoleers have plenty of problems. If someone gave me the opportunity to convert all of my (mastered) rifle boxes to pistol boxes, there's no way I'd agree. Not as things are right now.
Also, Jaegan already stated (in a post right above you, as well as many other places) that he does NOT think the speed caps as proposed by the devs (which was THEIR solution to a problem WE pointed out to them) is a good idea. There are MUCH BETTER solution that should be pitched to the devs (or dev, when the guy gets back from vacation) than the proposed speed cap.
Sorry, but attacking the person is not a valid point. It's known as the ad hominem fallacy. If you think Jaegen's arguments are inaccurate for whatever reason (and I don't agree with all of his idea, either), you need to address those, not the person making the argument.
"Why not work on getting speed really fixed rather than this bogus solution the devs came up with? I have said, in every post where I mention speed since then, that I don't think anyone thought it was right to boost pistols by 2x max and knock rifles to 1/3. WE AGREE, I've posted this over and over. If that really goes live, you're right, you will probably get SMOKED by pistol users. However, the devs also said they will "look at the balance" of this and boost rifles, etc. Yes, we know they cannot reasonably boost it enough, that's why we should be helping the devs understand why they chose the wrong way to fix speed."
You chose to neatly gloss over pages of refutation and link the sanitized Speed Modification thread without a hint of counterargument, erroneous numbers and outrageous claims intact and presented as absolute truth. Don't play the innocent comrade, the friend of our class -- that thread, and your support of it, offered a preposterous image of the Rifleman as infinitely beyond the Pistol user in offensive capacity, and the implication that this system must thus be changed to preserve class balance. Now, when the change has been proposed by the Developers, you are suddenly full of concern and compassion -- the companion and confessor of the class you helped sentence to death? Wonderful again that you are lacking any specifics as to alternative systems beyond the vague expression of a measured solidarity. Excuse me if I'm not especially willing to take your admissions at face value, given the devastation you have wrought upon the Rifleman profession.
"Aldeon is still specifically asking for a nerf to pistoleers in the form of accuracy reduction. That's fine as long as balance is taken into account. Pistoleers are NOT effective right now, sure BH/pistol is, but that takes all their skill points, just to fire as fast as a rifleman. You please tell me you're OK with someone suggesting targeted nerfs to your profession. Please, tell me I should be a shmuck and enjoy that."
Unbelievably crass hypocrisy. You had advocated an unbelievably potent nerf to the Rifleman class for the sake of "balance" -- now, when our class has been emasculated, eviscerated, and dismembered in the plans of the Developers, you opine that it would be "unfair" for your class to receive a few compensatory lacerations. Why? Because of your vague, belated admission that maybe a different system of speed modification would be preferable -- a system you do not identify in more than a few vague, meaningless words expressing agreement without obligation and compassion without comprehension.
Or should I take it another way -- that you will not support such changes simply because they would hurt your profession, and balance has nothing to do with it. Such hypocrisy. While railing for a change in the speed system, your contention was that specific classes were not your concern, it was all for the lofty ideal of balance; wonderful how quickly such elevated notions are abandoned when a little introspection is called for.
"The speed change has NOT yet happened, and frankly, I don't think you SHOULD let it go in like it is. neither do I think EYE should let it go in like it is. I offered to start showing clear logs and solutions to the devs on speed that show them why their current solution is NOT fixing anything, but I cannot hear myself think through all of the nerf calls to pistoleers from rifles, and all the personal attacks on me. And frankly, I'd prefer to see everyone help out. FOCUS on the issues, not nerfs to others. All the solutions are being posted by people, but no one pays attention, they'd much rather bash me for defending pistoleers from a nerf call from Aldeon...that's based not in pistoleers being too effective, but in wanting to make rifles more effective. And he offers nothing like "well yes, it's a nerf, so maybe you need a boost to short range DPS, etc." No, it's just "nerf pistoleer range"."
So it hasn't happened -- but it will happen, and you supported it happening, and now you equivocate to save face. And the reason you cannot specify -- because the people whom you garroted and butchered show some resentment, and you cannot bear the slightest bit of resentment against your blameless profession! We should focus on issues, not nerfs -- even though you went out of your way to advocate a change to the speed system which would be disastrous to Rifleman, while ostensibly focusing on "issues". Apparently these standards only apply to Riflemen, who should putter about musing on "issues" while their class, after your prompting, submits to the guillotine. And, the crowning jewel in self-serving hypocrisy: people are personally attacking you because you would defend yourself from a nerf to Pistoleers! No, people are personally attacking you because, thanks to your efforts, our class is being destroyed.
"The speed change has not happened. Don't let it happen. 3x vs .5, is dumb. It was known the second it was posted, it's still known now. Pistoleers will still hit the speed cap,but be twice as effecitve. That's broken. What about melees? Speed will still be broken, and rifles get the shaft with it. Why is that not clear?"
Because this is exactly the system you militated for. You specifically and intentionally avoided citing the SWG Discussion Speed Modification thread, with a balance of argument and counterargument -- which would indicate to the Developers that a onesided nerf would be foolish and unjustified -- and instead elected to link in your Pistoleers petition the version without discussion, context, explicated disagreement -- which did most certainly indicate to the Developers that this is an axiomatic issue, almost moot, about which only one interpretation is feasible. You would speak to us of clarity? It is clear that you misled, obfuscated, and misrepresented to send our class to an early grave. And now, though you supposedly agree with our objections, you will not propose an alternative because you are offended that Riflemen would mistrust and dislike you for the impending death of our class. Which means you will comfortably sit back and enjoy the upcoming changes, while plaintitively whispering that the mutilation is our fault, that we were too intolerant, that you were in agreement with us all along, but we would not cooperate.
The Pistoleer community should trust you. The Rifleman community should most certainly not.
Krupskaya,
Funny how you ignore everything I write in favor of your own agenda.
Look above you, goofball, do you read what I write or are you just on a hate spree and enjoy personal attacks? I think the answer is..obvious? Obfuscate: That think Krupskaya does by ignoring what I write, then uses words the average person has to look up. Obfuscate.
Here are some more examples of you(and Aldeon) ignoring me. note, one of these was even directed to you in the response(!).
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Quotes from me:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=16601&view=by_date_ascending&page=1
No one was hoping to change balacne at low speed, we just want to see the cap not be attainable. Does that match what you're trying to show?
Why the devs chose to change speed drastically, and not for the better, I do not know. Maybe with a new post showing WHERE specifically it was messing up, will help guide them.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=568175&highlight=#M568175
Master, Krups,
Any massive imbalance we will catch in the TC if they really did do something as drastic as your doomsday scenario. Trust me, the carbine and rifle correspondant will probably be side by side with me testing DPS and such, we're pretty OK people[is this still true Aldeon?], we all want balance. If it's 6x more damage..lol..I doubt I'd be able to hide that, don't you think? I also wouldn't really care to..I'd prefer the game to remain challenging and all.
Corr boards ( you cannot read this)
I also hesitate to guess at what DPS will be like once speed is changed, but I can say I'd be more than happy to test it, and if we all test it (carbin/rifle/pistol..maybe commando/BH/melee even), maybe we can figure out how things stack up. Obviously, if the reality was pistols doing 6x your damage, yeah, that might need to be tweaked in some way..and the way you mention might be one possible way. Changing special attacks where some are normal 64m range, but mediocre, and having higher damage closer range (32m) would also be a variation on the theme. I always assumed between AR, higher DPS, better pool targeting, state effects, that pistols had that edge for "some reason".
======================
Wow, boyI think I'm unreasonable Krups, don't you? I mean, without the obfuscate stuff?
Riflemen need to realize that a hard cap 3x speed modifier is NOT supported by any sane person, and I'd be MORE than happy to help with Aldeon, SOJ, etc., in pointing this out, so we don't have to endure more months of unbalanced combat (think ATSTs before commando, knockdown without a timer, etc.)
As I've said, in the above quotes, contrary to what some trouble-makers would like to perpetrate.
Not ONCE in any discussion of speed did anyone thing things other than hitting cap was the issue. The rest we can deal with. Hitting cap was the issue, and it's STILL the issue, except you can no longer hit the same cap as us. How's that fair? It's not! But don't lie about me agreeing with it, nor about why you want to nerf pistoleers.If speed is your issue, deal with speed. If rifles have problems, fix rifles. If you want pistoeler fixes, talk to me and BE REASONABLE. Out of common courtesy, is that too much to ask?
"Apparently there are two Jaegen's posting, because I don't really see this at all."
Quite right -- there is the Jaegan that was posting to the destruction of our class, and the Jaegan who is posting in its aftermath. One pushing for horrible nerfs to Riflemen, the second lamenting them with faux compassion and expressing sympathy for our upcoming doom.
"You seem to be completely ignoring pistoleer issues right now - if you pay attention to what they are saying, and if you have experience with what goes on in PvP, it's clear that pistoleers have plenty of problems. If someone gave me the opportunity to convert all of my (mastered) rifle boxes to pistol boxes, there's no way I'd agree. Not as things are right now."
Completely ignoring Pistoleer issues -- amazing. Jaegan composes a Pistoleer petition thread which, amidst asking for huge, beneficial changes to his own class, implies that a drastic nerf to Rifleman is necessary. In the aftermath of these disastrous revisions, we Riflemen should be mindful of the needs of Pistoleers. Guess what -- every proposal for a Pistoleer nerf is contingent upon the speed changes going live. Because, believe it or not, if Riflemen are to have 1/6 the speed of Pistoleers, either our weapon's damage will need to be adjusted to the 1500+ base maximum range, or some hefty nerfs to Pistoleers are necessary.
"Also, Jaegan already stated (in a post right above you, as well as many other places) that he does NOT think the speed caps as proposed by the devs (which was THEIR solution to a problem WE pointed out to them) is a good idea. There are MUCH BETTER solution that should be pitched to the devs (or dev, when the guy gets back from vacation) than the proposed speed cap."
Empty words. He presented his case in a way that erased all contrary opinion, linking a sanitized over an honest thread to give the impression that no one disagreed, building an argument for the nerfing of Rifleman upon misconception and misrepresentation. Now that the nerf is underway, he sheds crocodile tears and perports to be with us, not against us. It is just a shallow attempt to maintain face after his blatantly partisan evisceration of our class.
"Sorry, but attacking the person is not a valid point. It's known as the ad hominem fallacy. If you think Jaegen's arguments are inaccurate for whatever reason (and I don't agree with all of his idea, either), you need to address those, not the person making the argument."
What I address is his hypocrisy, as demonstrated by his arguments and changes in position. If you missed this depth, you would do well to misread. He has changed his positions, changed his attitudes, militated for nerfs and then bemoaned him, all with the ultimate consideration not truth nor balance, merely the advancement of his own class above all others -- rather than wasting time quipping obvious Latinisms, perhaps you would do well to notice that, guess what, a cause born in deceit is not self-evidently right.
Pistoleers have plenty of valid complaints. They have no status effects. Their specials have the lowest DPS add of any class. More of their specials are broken than ours. Right now rifle DPS is far greater than pistoleer at master, and we do AE damage to boot. While pistol is easier to use because of the range mods and smaller melee penalty, there is NO reasonable way you can argue that the advantages are all one-sided, because they aren't. I can outdamage a master pistoleer any day, and I can do it in an AE area. I can also AE stun so I take less damage, and I can AE dizzy to assist the rest of my group.
I'm confused why you think Jaegen has some sort of magic influence over the devs. I'm pretty sure he doesn't. If he did, Disarm2 would probably AE KD still (IIRC, Jaegen petitioned to get that removed if it wasn't intended) and their specials wouldn't be broken, and they'd have a wider variety of attacks. Pistoleers are SIGNIFICANTLY worse now than at launch due to the KD nerfs and the Disarm2 fix (they always had problems, but two overpowered attacks covered them up).