Rifleman Archive
Thread: A valid reason why rifles should hit at 80m not 64m
"In real life, a skilled shooter with an M-16A2 and a quality scope can fire and strike a target dead on at a range of 1 - 2 miles away. I learned this in Basic training, that one requirment in Sniper school is to strike a moving target from 1/2 mile away."
Kalanth, right there, you made it obvious you have never handled a rifle, or know little about rifle marksmanship. Dead on hits at a mile out are... extremely hard, at best. Top of the line. You need a rifle like the Barrett, first off- an M16 hitting accurately at 1 mile away? You are a joke. You have to account for all manners of ballistic information. Windage, elevation, velocity, trajectory. Ask any -real- sniper (read: not a star wars geek whom wants to sound knowledgeable on a video-game subject) about accurately sniping at one mile ranges, let alone two miles, and he'll politely (or if he has my temperment, rather rudely) laugh in your face. Mention long range sniping with an M16, and he'll probably just kill you, to avoid further dangerous side-splitting.
Xilaxtrasia_Vor wrote:
"In real life, a skilled shooter with an M-16A2 and a quality scope can fire and strike a target dead on at a range of 1 - 2 miles away. I learned this in Basic training, that one requirment in Sniper school is to strike a moving target from 1/2 mile away."
Kalanth, right there, you made it obvious you have never handled a rifle, or know little about rifle marksmanship. Dead on hits at a mile out are... extremely hard, at best. Top of the line. You need a rifle like the Barrett, first off- an M16 hitting accurately at 1 mile away? You are a joke. You have to account for all manners of ballistic information. Windage, elevation, velocity, trajectory. Ask any -real- sniper (read: not a star wars geek whom wants to sound knowledgeable on a video-game subject) about accurately sniping at one mile ranges, let alone two miles, and he'll politely (or if he has my temperment, rather rudely) laugh in your face. Mention long range sniping with an M16, and he'll probably just kill you, to avoid further dangerous side-splitting.
You realize there are other ways to have intelligent disscusions, but from my observations, I am assuming you are army, or realted to someone in the Army, and so I forgive you for being as compasionate as dirt and as intelligent as a rock. Considering that I only know of a few actually jobs in my branch of service that use weapons (Security Forces, TACP, Pararescue, etc.) then I would not expect very many Air Force personel to know much about a rifles ballistics or max range and so on. However, the listing that I mentioned was explained in much detail to me from a Special Forces (10th Mountain) unit with four Marine Snipers in their ranks. They explained that it is possible, and I never said it was difficult, I said you had to have skill, and if I remember right, skill is not the pop shots we took in basic at cardboard targets that were a mere 300m away. That and the fact that we only fired the weapons once, and never touched a real weapon again the entire duration of Basic training (Unless you count those M16's they use for the 'laser tag' war games). You see, I wouldn't even be so mad bout all this if you hadn't just come out and declair me stupid, instead of saying, 'Hey, you were missinformed, this is what the truth is.' Trust me, take that Army mentality, beat your head against a wall for about a day, and you may get to be as smart as the bottom half of the Air Force personel. The only advantage to the Army, it's not the Navy.
-Atev Ite
Another tidbit for you; Barrett M82A1 rifles are the .50 caliber rifles you're talking about. They are long range interdiction rifles, made for taking out light armored vehicles; they wont penetrate tank armor of modern tanks, but they can disable a tank.
You shoot the sights on a tank, and they are useless until an engineering crew can fix the tank. Then you kill the engineers with sequenced shots, killing two birds with one stone.
And another thing!
I think that Pistol users and such should just have their max range cut by a longshot. As the guy said earlier, draw distance on many more 'average' PC's is around the 60ish meter range. You cant fire at things you cant render! They just need to make it so pistol users cant shoot from our ranges. Thats all! Very simple. They fire faster, and get a bonus for being around that range. 60+ meters, rifle range. 40 meters, carbine range.30 meters, pistol range.
Sound fair? I'm not sure.
"a skilled shooter with an M-16A2 and a quality scope can fire and strike a target dead on at a range of 1 - 2 miles away"
In truth It's not posible with the M16 in any variant.It's in fact not posible with alomost any rifle round. Some Mag rounds can reachthe mile mark but not many, probably less then ahand full.The bullet drop on the Nato M16 round 5.56mm or anyround of .223 is abought 100 fps per 100 yrd. I'm making the numbers easy to make the point, truth is they slow down faster as they move farther.
Mil Spec ammo runs abought 2700 fps from a 20" AR-15 or M16, drop 100 fps for a 16" and posibley 200 fps for a 14, tho bullet stabalization is more of a conser at that point. That gives you a bullet droping on the ground a bit over 1/2 natical mile (4000 yards). Most over the counter .223 ammo is in the 2200 fps range. Top end hand loading is still abought Mil Spec, and not recomened for novic hand loaders.
The longest confermed Kill shoot by a sniper was in the6000 yard rangewith a .50 Cal round. Most if snipers are currently using the .50 cal or the7.62 Nato round (.308 Win).
Current milatary thought and has been such from the 60's is most solders can't hit anything in combat over 300 yarrd. Most kills happen under 100. That's was caused themain shift from the 30 cal+ rounds to the .22 cal rounds. Efective range works for the .22 cals and you can carry more ammo for weight.
As was said the intial 85,000 M16's faults lied with poor training and cleaning kits not being suplied to Troops. Top that off the first batches of ammo were using IMR Poweder that was a ball propelant causing over fouling. Later crome lining was added new poweder and the trap space to house a cleaning kit in the rifle. The AR15/M16 has been the world leader in reliability sence.
I can dig up the suporting documents of terminal blaistics if you realy want me to.
"'Hey, you were missinformed, this is what the truth is."-Theres your truth.
Bah no edit, just checkjed my math...
Nautical Mile= 2000 yards.
So yes you can lob 5.62 rounds out the barrel at 45 deg and they will land on the ground at a mile... sorry, math fart!
/agree
We should be able to go FARTHER than 64m, at least 100
Wookie1985 wrote:
I can dig up the suporting documents of terminal blaistics if you realy want me to.
"'Hey, you were missinformed, this is what the truth is."-Theres your truth.
No need, some people just happen to know that much more about weapons than others. One thing I want to mention, recently I went to the firing range to re-up my M-16 certification, and we were using NATO 7.62mm rounds instead of the standard 5.56mm. I think this is just a base thing, but that is what our Security Forces Squadron on the base is switching to. Thought you might find that interesting.
-Atev Ite
Xilaxtrasia_Vor wrote:
I was rather mean. But I also do not like people touting around mis-information as if they were some authority; I could have been nicer, but that claim is far off, and whomever you heard it from was either exaggerating, or you didn't hear properly/forgot the right ranges. Look at it this way; the m16 is a an assault rifle as you stated earlier, and it's max range is roughl 550 meters, accurate. Sniper rifles commonly shoot out to 800 - 1000m accurately, with accuracy rapidly dropping outwards from that, needing more precise ballistics calculations.
A mile is 1609 meters. That is right about 3 times the maximum accurate range of an M16. Sniper Rifles aren't god weapons, they merely put a bullet farther out, more accurately.
Sorry again, that I was so mean about it. And as for my military occupation, I'll leave it a toss up. =P
Thats ok, bitterness spawns bitterness, and so retaliation is inevitable. Personally, I know little about weapons, I just load them on Aircraft (I am an Air Transportation Specialist, in which we handle loading and unloading of cargo and personel for military deployments and recreational purposes <Space Available Travel>
. About all I really know about them is how much a pallet of 300-400 rifles weighs, and were the Center of Balance is normally located on a Bradley. But damned if I don't know the majority of the pertanent information to a C-5, C-17, C-141, and so on. 
I should, thats my job.
-Atev Ite
What were you guys shooting? AR-10's?
Kalanth wrote:
No need, some people just happen to know that much more about weapons than others. One thing I want to mention, recently I went to the firing range to re-up my M-16 certification, and we were using NATO 7.62mm rounds instead of the standard 5.56mm. I think this is just a base thing, but that is what our Security Forces Squadron on the base is switching to. Thought you might find that interesting.
-Atev Ite