Rifleman Archive
Thread: So what are they nerfing rifleman on?
ElPedroSG wrote:
I would expect Rifle and Pistol to be similar in DPS just at different firing rates, maybe with rifle having a bit more accuracy to offset slower specials but also higher HAM costs to reflect this.
But then I expect quite a few things...
Will we also get state effects and better defense versus state changes to compensate for that massive nerf?
Also I strongly feel that mind should not be healable as it has been since the beginning of the game. If that pool is less then 4000 of course it is going to be the most attractive one to hit so why not just complain about how buffs make the other 2 bars ignorable. Back in the "good 'ol days" mind was a good bar to target but it didn't destroy combat. Know why? Because an action targettingspecial actually did damage.
kirstar wrote:i cant see how a speed cap 1/2/3 p/c/r could work. a pistoller could spam special shots 3 times more than us. + if we miss we have to wait ages for another shot.
pistol 80% chance to hit 200 damage.(1 shot per second)in 6 seconds = 960
rifle80% chance to hit 600 damage. (1 shot per 3 seconds) in 6 seconds = 960
same damage potential.
however...
premis = 1st shot misses.
damage potenital now
p = 800
r = 480
I've seen this argument before, and heres my response. If you think thats unfair, how about things right now? A Master Rifleman can spam specials every second, so using the guns above, right now we have:
Pistol: 80% chance to hit, 200 damage, 1 sec = 960 in 6 seconds (as previously).
Rifle: 80% chance to hit, 600 damage, 1 sec = 2880 in 6 secs.
The rifleman has to miss over 73% of his shots (and how often have you seen that happen?) before the pistoleer does anywhere near the same damage. You can argue till your blue in the face that that is balanced, but very few non-Rifleman will agree with you.
kirstar wrote:you need to take into account the whole proffesion progression.
rifleman shoot slow to start then increase near master to fast
pistoliers start fast and got to faster.
at early levels rifleman fire every 4 or 5 seconds,
just cus at master we are alot better doesnt mean we need a nerf. not every rifleman is a master, and it makes up for our crappy progession
Isn't that the point though? Each class has its good and bad. Riflemen are supposed to be slow, high damage, accurate at range and inaccurate at point blank. From what I've seen a Master rifleman is just as fast as a pistoleer and as accurate at close range as at distance. Two downsides of the profession are therefor nullified.
A pistoleer is supposed to be fast, lower damage, accurate at close range and less accurate at distance. All of those are accurate, but if a rifleman fires just as fast and as accuratly at close range as a pistoleer, whats the point of being a pistoleer?
The speed thing is the issue, look at this..
Both pistoleers and riflemen start off (at novice) with +30 speed in their respective weapon skills.
By the time a pistoleer hits 2/2/2/2, he has +42 speed, a rifleman has +50.
At 3/3/3/3 the pistoleer hasn't caught up with the rifleman at 2/2/2/2 and only has +48, the rifleman however now has +60.
At 4/4/4/4 the pistoleer had +54 and rifleman is at +70.
Master means +74 pistol speed and +90 rifle speed. As an asside, as Master a pistoleer only has +95 accuracy, a rifleman has +160, guess who has a higher ratio of hits to misses?
In the end, the fact that a rifleman can fire an AP3 rifle, that does a lot more damage than any pistol, as fast as a pistoleer can shoot thier pistol, surely shows that there is something very wrong with one of these two classes.
But let me make it clear, I don't believe in nerfs, I'm a CH and I've certainly had enough of them. But I also don't believe that fixing something thats obviously broken is a nerf. I would be exstatic if the dev's could come up with a solution that would make both the rifleman and the pistoleers (and indeed every combat class) happy, the chances of that are slim though.
I hate to break it to you all ,but if you kill our spd then we will become useless in PVP. Most unbuffed PVP resolves itself in under 6 sec's. SO we get 2 shots at best while you all get to shoot 3 times as many rounds. This is thrown out of whack by you higher multiplier specials carbineers get 7.5x multiplier, smugglers get 6x, we get a 5x. I wouldlike topoint out that I would love to postsome pistolleer specials, but I can find numbers anywhere.
hoenix
kirstar wrote:they need to fix pistoliers.they may not have the same acuracy or speed, but then they dopnt need the speed.they dont have -80 accuracy.also they have lots of defences.also you notice that most people are pistoliers rather than rifleman.another thing rifleman cant improve their class with a dabble.
They need to fix pistoleer, yes I agree.
Pistoleers (I presume you mean) don't need speed? Excuse me? Which dimension are you living in? If pistoleers don't need speed, then neither do you, so a 3 sec cap will be irrelevent, right? No? thought not.
You might get -80 accuracy (at close range I presume you mean?), but even with that, you still have +80 at Master (because of your +160 default) which is damn close to the accuracy of a master pistoleer without any reductions.
MarcoRenaldi wrote:I hate to break it to you all ,but if you kill our spd then we will become useless in PVP. Most unbuffed PVP resolves itself in under 6 sec's. SO we get 2 shots at best while you all get to shoot 3 times as many rounds. This is thrown out of whack by you higher multiplier specials carbineers get 7.5x multiplier, smugglers get 6x, we get a 5x. I wouldlike topoint out that I would love to postsome pistolleer specials, but I can find numbers anywhere.
Who's talking about Carbineers? Yes pistoleers get a few extra shots, but they do MUCH less damage. Take a look at my comparison above, right now hitting a target 80% of the time. the rifleman does three times as much damage in the same timeframe as a pistoleer, if a pistoleer goes up against a rifleman guess who wins every time, even if their standing on the riflemans head. Can you really claim that is balanced and fair?
Given a 3 sec speed cap for rifles (which is what some people claim are in the works) then the pistoleer and rifleman are equal in power, one working better at long range and the other at close range. Pistoleers may get 6 shots in that 6 sec period while rifleman only get 2, but the overall damage is the same.
Undergrid wrote:
MarcoRenaldi wrote:
I hate to break it to you all ,but if you kill our spd then we will become useless in PVP. Most unbuffed PVP resolves itself in under 6 sec's. SO we get 2 shots at best while you all get to shoot 3 times as many rounds. This is thrown out of whack by you higher multiplier specials carbineers get 7.5x multiplier, smugglers get 6x, we get a 5x. I wouldlike topoint out that I would love to postsome pistolleer specials, but I can find numbers anywhere.
Who's talking about Carbineers? Yes pistoleers get a few extra shots, but they do MUCH less damage. Take a look at my comparison above, right now hitting a target 80% of the time. the rifleman does three times as much damage in the same timeframe as a pistoleer, if a pistoleer goes up against a rifleman guess who wins every time, even if their standing on the riflemans head. Can you really claim that is balanced and fair?
Given a 3 sec speed cap for rifles (which is what some people claim are in the works) then the pistoleer and rifleman are equal in power, one working better at long range and the other at close range. Pistoleers may get 6 shots in that 6 sec period while rifleman only get 2, but the overall damage is the same.
I Know things are not balanced, but nerfing our proffession is not the way to balance.
I used the carbineer as a examply because of the insane multipliers. IF you decide to make all equal with autoattack DPS then rifles will come up very short due to your higher multipliers.
As for shooting alot up close well should be fixed but I dont know how to fix this due to most PVP occuring iwht 40 meters in towns and near bases.
yeah you all get 6 shots and we get 2 inside of 6 seconds right?What happens if we miss? Our dmg is reduced by half and if you miss? your dmg drops by16%...yeah that sounds fair.
Oh yeah almost forgot ot mention.........
DONT COMPARE A MASTER OF A COMBAT PROFFESION TO THAT OF A BROKEN ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I dont know how many times i have to say this. If you nerf us based on our performance vs a broken proffession(your master attack is broke, ours is our best attack) then you get a balance of a broken proffession and a nerfed one. What happens when your proffession gets fixed? Then you will be nerfed and the process starts all over again.
Get your own proffession fixed before trying to balance others!
Undergrid wrote:
...snip...
Isn't that the point though? Each class has its good and bad. Riflemen are supposed to be slow, high damage, accurate at range and inaccurate at point blank. From what I've seen a Master rifleman is just as fast as a pistoleer and as accurate at close range as at distance. Two downsides of the profession are therefor nullified.
Not throughout the class. I thought Pistoleers were getting Dual Wield, which would totally negate this argument. Also note that this definition of rifle is not wholely agreed to.
A pistoleer is supposed to be fast, lower damage, accurate at close range and less accurate at distance. All of those are accurate, but if a rifleman fires just as fast and as accuratly at close range as a pistoleer, whats the point of being a pistoleer?
The speed thing is the issue, look at this..
Both pistoleers and riflemen start off (at novice) with +30 speed in their respective weapon skills.
By the time a pistoleer hits 2/2/2/2, he has +42 speed, a rifleman has +50.
Typical weapon speeds are the overiding factor here:
Typical Pistol w/3, Typical Rifle w/7
3 * (1-.42) = 1.74 (getting to that cap in a hurry, aren't we?)
7 * (1-.5) = 3.5 (not even close)
At 3/3/3/3 the pistoleer hasn't caught up with the rifleman at 2/2/2/2 and only has +48, the rifleman however now has +60.
3 * (1-.48) = 1.56 (damn near cap)
7* (1-.6) = 2.8 (hardly)
At 4/4/4/4 the pistoleer had +54 and rifleman is at +70.
3 * (1-.54) = 1.38 (I'd call that basically the 1scap)
7* (1-.7) = 2.1 (still twice our speed)
Master means +74 pistol speed and +90 rifle speed. As an asside, as Master a pistoleer only has +95 accuracy, a rifleman has +160, guess who has a higher ratio of hits to misses?
3 * (1-.74) = .78 (DING!)
7* (1-.9) =.7 (parity, and ONLY at master)
Now there was an accuracy issue, due to a bug. I'm currious if that was fixed. Our higher accruacy was not, in practice, better then pistol. Here is my humble suggestion (mhs?): get that Dual Wield thing going at Master for you guys. I would much rather see that, then a nerf here.
Again, mhs, Dual Wield. You get to have the possibility of using 2 damage types to boot. I'de get behind you guys on that one.
In the end, the fact that a rifleman can fire an AP3 rifle, that does a lot more damage than any pistol, as fast as a pistoleer can shoot thier pistol, surely shows that there is something very wrong with one of these two classes.
But let me make it clear, I don't believe in nerfs, I'm a CH and I've certainly had enough of them. But I also don't believe that fixing something thats obviously broken is a nerf. I would be exstatic if the dev's could come up with a solution that would make both the rifleman and the pistoleers (and indeed every combat class) happy, the chances of that are slim though.