Rifleman Archive
Thread: So what are they nerfing rifleman on?
They are not equal in power - in that same 3 sec period you could lay 3 status effects on a rifleman and he would be able to lay one... DPS is not the major factor in winning right now - nor has it ever been.
Undergrid wrote:
MarcoRenaldi wrote:
I hate to break it to you all ,but if you kill our spd then we will become useless in PVP. Most unbuffed PVP resolves itself in under 6 sec's. SO we get 2 shots at best while you all get to shoot 3 times as many rounds. This is thrown out of whack by you higher multiplier specials carbineers get 7.5x multiplier, smugglers get 6x, we get a 5x. I wouldlike topoint out that I would love to postsome pistolleer specials, but I can find numbers anywhere.
Who's talking about Carbineers? Yes pistoleers get a few extra shots, but they do MUCH less damage. Take a look at my comparison above, right now hitting a target 80% of the time. the rifleman does three times as much damage in the same timeframe as a pistoleer, if a pistoleer goes up against a rifleman guess who wins every time, even if their standing on the riflemans head. Can you really claim that is balanced and fair?
Given a 3 sec speed cap for rifles (which is what some people claim are in the works) then the pistoleer and rifleman are equal in power, one working better at long range and the other at close range. Pistoleers may get 6 shots in that 6 sec period while rifleman only get 2, but the overall damage is the same.
MarcoRenaldi said: "I used the carbineer as a examply because of the insane multipliers. IF you decide to make all equal with autoattack DPS then rifles will come up very short due to your higher multipliers."
Well I can't find the stats right now either, but if I remember correctly pistoleer has only one 5x multiplier on an attack that has a large delay as well. The rest are between 2x and 4x, hardly extreme. On top of that there are only two or three specials that allow us to target a specific HAM pool, and most of them are useless.
MarcoRenaldi said: "yeah you all get 6 shots and we get 2 inside of 6 seconds right?What happens if we miss? Our dmg is reduced by half and if you miss? your dmg drops by16%...yeah that sounds fair."
I think we have to agree to disagree on this point. As I said each profession is supposed to have a downside and speed has to be one of the rifleman downsides, otherwise why would those T21's have such a high reload? Anyway, rifleman have almost double the accuracy modifier at master than pistoleers, seriously how often do you lot actually miss?
MarcoRenaldi said: "DONT COMPARE A MASTER OF A COMBAT PROFFESION TO THAT OF A BROKEN ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Yes pistoleer is broken, but frankly I believe rifleman is just as broken, its just that its broken to the riflemans advantage.
Fred_Skinner said: "Not throughout the class. I thought Pistoleers were getting Dual Wield, which would totally negate this argument. Also note that this definition of rifle is not wholely agreed to."
I've not hear any confirmation to duel wield, although most pistoleers seem to want it, as to my definition of rifleman it is my view of what general opinion apears to be, it may not be accurate.
Fred_Skinner said a bit about reload times with different speed modifiers (to long to reproduce).
You miss my point, I don't believe that the same overall speed (1 sec reload at Master Pistoleer and Master Rifleman) is parity because at this rate the rifleman can lay out a heck of a lot more damage than any pistoleer. The mutlipliers as they are now, allow you to fire your specials at master as fast as a master pistoleer, If your going to do that then you don't need as hard a hitting weapon. Give me a pistol that's rated at 600 damage and AP3 that I can fire every second and I'll drop the subject. The old FWG5's were nowhere near that good and they got the business end of the nerf bat.
Brahn-Cholo said: "PS i stated a great fix to balance..... aside from some of the broken classes.... is to get rid of BUFFS.... but that is just too easy."
An interesting idea, but I don't see it happening.
Ackehece said: "They are not equal in power - in that same 3 sec period you could lay 3 status effects on a rifleman and he would be able to lay one... DPS is not the major factor in winning right now - nor has it ever been."
Good point, and one I never thought about (but thats what the dev's are paid for). How many state effects do rifleman actually have that they can use at long range that actually work? Currently the pistoleer has only Pistol Melee Defense 1 (if your not dabbling smuggler) thats usefull (a KD with a 7m range and a rubbish hit rate).
As for DPS, rifleman hardly ever seem to try state changes on me when I've gone up against them, they mainly go straight for the mind pool. Last time I was near Anchorhead doing FP missions and without a mind buff, it took a Master Rifleman 3 shots in three secs and I was dead before I even realised what was happening so don't tell me that DPS isn't a major issue.
Like I said before, I don't particularly want to see anyone nerfed, but changes are going to come, some for the good and some for the worse. I guess we just have to wait and see.
Riflemen have2 good status effects and 2 that you will never see:
Dizzy - FLurry 1 and flurry 2
Stun - Flushing 1 and 2
Posture Change Up - Flushing 1 and 2, Startle 1 and 2, Strafe 2, possibly Strafe 1
Delay - Only works from posture change up on Strafe 2
Now as to why you as a master pistoleer will never see a rifleman try to stick a Dizzy or Stun on you. You have amazing Defense to Status changes. Rifleman have basically nothing in defense to status changes. Like 10 to dizzy and Stun, and 40 to posture change UP (just pulling these off the top of my head but this is very close). Rifleman death is brought about easily through status changes, 1 KD and I am dead there is no but. it is utter death for me. I am also a pure rifleman, I just added Master Marksman, but no other mastery yet. Now if you can't KD a Riflemen then you are not facing just a rifleman.
As a pure Rifleman, my defense is my DPS, it is all I have, and it isn't always enough as well it shouldn't be. So just looking at DPS is not the end all of answers. There are many other factors, specifically status effects and let me repeat every time I die, which some days is often other days not, I have multiple status effects hitting me. Just the other day, a CH pet got close enough to me to hit me with poison, it stuck first shot, a friggin CH pet!!! If my group didn't have a doctor I would have been dead.
So please before you start screaming about DPS think about everything and what all can effect DPS besides speed and power.
Undergrid wrote:
Let me address a few different peoples responses in one post.
Allow me to debunk
MarcoRenaldi said: "I used the carbineer as a examply because of the insane multipliers. IF you decide to make all equal with autoattack DPS then rifles will come up very short due to your higher multipliers."
Well I can't find the stats right now either, but if I remember correctly pistoleer has only one 5x multiplier on an attack that has a large delay as well. The rest are between 2x and 4x, hardly extreme. On top of that there are only two or three specials that allow us to target a specific HAM pool, and most of them are useless.
Well as someone said in one os these threads the pistolleers Master special is broken SO FIX IT and then come back. Wow you get two to three specials that target a specific pool? What a coincidence so de we, yes it is mind but we pay a huge mind cost for all our specials because of this. Our best special is a random pool shot too so how about researching the class you want to nerf.
MarcoRenaldi said: "yeah you all get 6 shots and we get 2 inside of 6 seconds right?What happens if we miss? Our dmg is reduced by half and if you miss? your dmg drops by16%...yeah that sounds fair."
I think we have to agree to disagree on this point. As I said each profession is supposed to have a downside and speed has to be one of the rifleman downsides, otherwise why would those T21's have such a high reload? Anyway, rifleman have almost double the accuracy modifier at master than pistoleers, seriously how often do you lot actually miss?
That spd thing is not a reload timer or fire rate. If that were the case then pistols would fire the slowest due to the size and not as much room for a powercore(Clip). What that spd is the ability to recover from the recoil and reaquire your target. If you think about this it makes alot of sense why else to pistols start so fast? Most modern rifles can easily fire faster than a pistol. The reason we got such high accuracy was because of a pistol user out sniping us from our ideal range.
MarcoRenaldi said: "DONT COMPARE A MASTER OF A COMBAT PROFFESION TO THAT OF A BROKEN ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Yes pistoleer is broken, but frankly I believe rifleman is just as broken, its just that its broken to the riflemans advantage.
Well why the **edit** dont you get pistol fixed first and see how it stacks and then balance. Or are you a complete idiot?
Fred_Skinner said: "Not throughout the class. I thought Pistoleers were getting Dual Wield, which would totally negate this argument. Also note that this definition of rifle is not wholely agreed to."
I've not hear any confirmation to duel wield, although most pistoleers seem to want it, as to my definition of rifleman it is my view of what general opinion apears to be, it may not be accurate.
Actually that is a debate going on even among us as to whether we are Heavy machine gunner(the T21 is a heavy repeater) or a sniper(kinda hard to snipe from 64 meters).
Fred_Skinner said a bit about reload times with different speed modifiers (to long to reproduce).
You miss my point, I don't believe that the same overall speed (1 sec reload at Master Pistoleer and Master Rifleman) is parity because at this rate the rifleman can lay out a heck of a lot more damage than any pistoleer. The mutlipliers as they are now, allow you to fire your specials at master as fast as a master pistoleer, If your going to do that then you don't need as hard a hitting weapon. Give me a pistol that's rated at 600 damage and AP3 that I can fire every second and I'll drop the subject. The old FWG5's were nowhere near that good and they got the business end of the nerf bat.
Actually a Master Rifle without master marksman canonly fire SS2 at around 2 seconds. Once again I will sya this wait until your broken specials get fixed and then come back. They couldactually be good when they are fixed.
Brahn-Cholo said: "PS i stated a great fix to balance..... aside from some of the broken classes.... is to get rid of BUFFS.... but that is just too easy."
An interesting idea, but I don't see it happening.
Ackehece said: "They are not equal in power - in that same 3 sec period you could lay 3 status effects on a rifleman and he would be able to lay one... DPS is not the major factor in winning right now - nor has it ever been."
Good point, and one I never thought about (but thats what the dev's are paid for). How many state effects do rifleman actually have that they can use at long range that actually work? W e have stun/dizzy and a but load of posture up attacks(dont ask me why we have two specials that do this) and we have no KD nor KD defense for that matter( dont tell me to use food as i am usually full of brandy and varagresian crape(sp?) to drink any.Currently the pistoleer has only Pistol Melee Defense 1 (if your not dabbling smuggler) thats usefull (a KD with a 7m range and a rubbish hit rate).
As for DPS, rifleman hardly ever seem to try state changes on me when I've gone up against them, they mainly go straight for the mind pool. Last time I was near Anchorhead doing FP missions and without a mind buff OK so if I walk into AH overt with my standard 500 health and you kill me in two shots, that is your fault for hitting my weakest pool?, it took a Master Rifleman 3 shots in three secs and I was dead before I even realised what was happening so don't tell me that DPS isn't a major issue. You mean you had a TEF and were not watching out for a attack? Stupidity does not qualify as a reason to nerf another proffession( this could have been done by several other proffessions too).
hoenix
Undergrid wrote:
Ackehece said: "They are not equal in power - in that same 3 sec period you could lay 3 status effects on a rifleman and he would be able to lay one... DPS is not the major factor in winning right now - nor has it ever been."
Good point, and one I never thought about (but thats what the dev's are paid for). How many state effects do rifleman actually have that they can use at long range that actually work? Currently the pistoleer has only Pistol Melee Defense 1 (if your not dabbling smuggler) thats usefull (a KD with a 7m range and a rubbish hit rate).
As for DPS, rifleman hardly ever seem to try state changes on me when I've gone up against them, they mainly go straight for the mind pool. Last time I was near Anchorhead doing FP missions and without a mind buff, it took a Master Rifleman 3 shots in three secs and I was dead before I even realised what was happening so don't tell me that DPS isn't a major issue.
let me address this part... With a helm (like we all wear (40% stun resist/70% energy resist) + PSGenergy/stun ) + our regular alotment of mind buffs (we rifleman are walking ads for entertainers and chefs )
wear your helm, use your imperial psg drink your brandy, do your moun watch your entertainers + range damage mitigation 3 and guess what
our biggest mind pool shot = nothing now
range mitigation 3 good jawa riflewith a powerup 175 -> 450 - 60% of top = 175 -> 270 now
ap1 vs ar1 = 0 because you are smart and actually wear you stun helm!
headshot 3 (even though we almostnever use it... has the biggest mind pool multiple) at 3x
so max damage is now 270 (x1.5)(this is a modifier to calculate actual damage)x 3 = 1215
1215 - 20% imperial psg = 1015
1015 - 40% = damage = 725
now add in a 75% pvp reduction (543approx!)= 185aprox!!!
your mind pool with all the buffs should be around 2800min
so even without considering regen and makeing the damage actually higher (200)
it would take14-15 shots to put you down... add regen and add another 5 -7 shots
as you say though this is unhealable damage
please other rifleman check my work and tell me if i am blowing it?
thank you Eaca for pointing out the errors in my original
Message Edited by Ackehece on 03-04-2004 11:44 PM
Ackehece wrote:
let me address this part... With a helm (like we all wear (40% stun resist/90% energy resist) + PSG STUN/energy ) + our regular alotment of mind buffs (we rifleman are walking ads for entertainers and chefs )
wear your helm, use your imperial psg drink your brandy, do your moun watch your entertainers + range damage mitigation 3 and guess what
our biggest mind pool shot = nothing now
range mitigation 3 good jawa riflewith a powerup 175 -> 450 - 60% of top = 175 -> 270 now
headshot 3 (even though we never use it... has the biggest mind pool multiple) at 3x
I use HS3 all the time.
so max damage is now 270 (x1.5)(this is a modifier to calculate actual damage)x 3 = 1215
1215 ap2 vs ar 1 armor =+25% increase = 1500
Where are you getting this? Jawa's are AP1
1500 - 20% imperial psg = 1200 (oh wow... makes it the same as ar 1 vs ap 1 )
1200 - 40% = damage = 720
now add in a 75% pvp reduction (540!)= 180!!!
your mind pool with all the buffs should be around 2800min
so even without considering regen and makeing the damage actually higher (150)
it would take15-16 shots to put you down... add regen and add another 5 -7 shots
but that is not all... we pay a 7x ham cost for this
our ham cost (can not be mitigated)
With no entertainer buffs, spice, or food, and just one VB I can reduce HS3 mind costs to -5 mind (if I have doc buffs on str and quick). Granted I do have 1100 focus since I'm human, but with 2 VB, spice, entertainer buffs, and Canape even if you only have 500 focus, you can still get up to 3000 focus, enough to wear the heaviest set of armor and still not use any mind for your specials.
a good average mind cost on one of these monster jawas is
45-48
so 315 mind damage to ourselves in thesame period
nice eh? why do you think rifleman live with hypermindbuffs... if you did the same headshot 3 would not work at all
please other rifleman check my work and tell me if i am blowing it?
Just as an observer to this debate. If you are PvP then surely you have a mixed template instead of just Rifleman? Im actually learning rifleman right now and its a bit of a hard slog early on but im enjoying it (see template of Surt below). My point being that Rifleman may not be as good after patch but if you are flexible with your template you can adapt to change as needs be.
I know thats easy for me to say not being a master rifleman but the same will apply for all proffessions. Im literally reading every proffesion forum and I can tell you right now that every proffesion is crying nerf for the upcoming combat changes. Warcry2 is a particular large problem.
Personnaly Im going to go for master rifleman in conjunction with my template (As below for Surt) which will give me a nice mixup game in PvP and a formiddable PvE player.
I realize riflemen are overpowered, and can tell just by facing them in PvP. I am a mater rifleman, and can pretty much take down any profession that does not target mind in seconds. If they target mind, well I just use a different strategy. Most of the time I win my fights. What has come apparent to me is that a lot of people are riflemen, and for me I am sick of facing riflemen all the time in PvP. The 3 second cap doesn't seem so bad at first, but I know the devs will go too far and give us no counter balance. Even though we are overpowered we will be nerfed into uselessness.
I just hope our correspondant can find that counter balance.