Rifleman Archive

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Vaedross wrote:
GAME BREAKING UNBALANCE

Naked Master Pistoleer / BH 0020 wins all PvP encounters

game over

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Umm Naked?

They're dead in a few shots most of the time, unless there has been a massive change to mPistoler / BH pistol4 template in the last patch.

Well the numbers look like this when comparinga Master Pistoleer and Master Rifleman:

Pistoleer: Base 95 accuracy, +50 for special, +0 range modifier = +145 to hit before defense is subtracted at 64 meters.

Rifleman (T21): Base 160 accuracy, +5 (HS3) -10 (SS2), +10 range modifier = +175 (HS3) or +160 (SS2)

If you look at a Rifleman at its worse range:

Rifleman (T21): Base 160 accuracy, +5 (HS3) -10 (SS2), -50 range modifier = +115 (HS3) or +100 (SS2).

So there you go people, I dont see any substance in thiscomplaint about the weapon at all. A Pistoleer has a +145 to hit at point blank or at 64 meters. They have a +30 hit accuracy over us at point blank, we have a +30 at 64 meters. I am sorry but you really cant get much more equal.

sorry if it seemed like whining your highness, i was trying to put the attention away from the insignificant little republic blaster. Personally I feel for commandos for a change, they got nerfed to hell with this last patch.

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SilverLobo wrote:

Well the numbers look like this when comparinga Master Pistoleer and Master Rifleman:

Pistoleer: Base 95 accuracy, +50 for special, +0 range modifier = +145 to hit before defense is subtracted at 64 meters.

Rifleman (T21): Base 160 accuracy, +5 (HS3) -10 (SS2), +10 range modifier = +175 (HS3) or +160 (SS2)

If you look at a Rifleman at its worse range:

Rifleman (T21): Base 160 accuracy, +5 (HS3) -10 (SS2), -50 range modifier = +115 (HS3) or +100 (SS2).

So there you go people, I dont see any substance in thiscomplaint about the weapon at all. A Pistoleer has a +145 to hit at point blank or at 64 meters. They have a +30 hit accuracy over us at point blank, we have a +30 at 64 meters. I am sorry but you really cant get much more equal.

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How did you come to a base accuracy of 160? Is that including aim? If so don't forget that aim can be used by pistol to and should be included in your calculations. Granted it isn't as much as a Riflemens bonus but they do have some.

Silver,

You can disregard my prior post. Figured out where the 160 came from. I need to use a calculator more often.

Well, the point is that while the advantages may be "fair" with +30 for rifle at max range and +30 for pistol at close range, this is purely theroretical and completly pointless in the game.

If a pistoleer fights against a rifleman, the pistoleer will be moving towards the rifleman. The advantage of the rifleman should be that could hit the pistoleer several times before the pistoleer is close enough to hit the rifleman. With that pistol, a pistoleer can hit at max range, close in, and still hit at close range (or change to a different pistol).

And then take into consideration accuracy while moving. Hah. Yeah. Very fair indeed.


Remmeber this post is about the range of this pistol (oh, and not about commando weapons at all. So go and whine about commandos in a different thread please). And that range is not fair.


Do run the numbers for accuracy for and "old" pistol like the FWG5 and the "new" republic blaster. Then you see how much better the pistoleers just got. If it does not make any differenece, fine. But I doubt that... *goes off to find a calculator*

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RueKursk wrote:

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klawlegna wrote:
I'm speaking with Greenmarinein regards tothis now about a possible Hotfix to correct it. If anything, I'll try to getthe reason behind it.

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Barricade the doors! The Pistoleers will be here soon!

*dives under a table*

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ROFL

CaLVines at least gather some facts:

Pistoleer: +30 while Moving

Rifleman: +10 while Moving

Pistoleer: +7 Ranged Defense

Rifleman: +52 Ranged Defense

So at any given range a Pistoleer using a blaster would have 95+50(special)+30 (Moving) -52 (Rifleman Defense) = +127 accuracy.

Lets look at a Rifleman.

160-10(SS2) +10 (Moving) -7 (Pistoleer Defense) +10 (T21 at 64 meters) = +163

160-10(SS2) +10 (Moving) -7 (Pistoleer Defense) -50 (T21 at point blank) = +103

If you have done ANY research you know that the base chance to hit is 65%, the modifier in this case the +127 from pistol, +163 and +103 would be divided by 2 and that number would be added to the 65% max being 95%. So we would have this:

Pistoleer 63+65= 128 (95%)

Rifleman 81+65=146 (95%)

Rifleman at point blank 51+65 =116 (95%)

Some things that I am sure you dont know is even if a weapon says it has a -70 modifier, at the worst it can be is -50. Also if you replace that blaster with a FWG, which most if not all Pistoleers use they would not increase their accuracy at close but guess what? THEY WOULD STILL HIT AT 95% (102 to be exact)from 64 meters. Also to my knowledge no one knows exactly what the penality is for moving while shoting AND the bonus YOU get if you are moving and being shot AT. Seeing that this effects everyone equally it is a standard.

So looking at this at the WORST the very worst a Rifleman would be 12% less accurate then a Pistoleer using a blaster.

Again spend some time and at least do some research before calling for Nerfs.

So looking at this at the WORST the very worst a Rifleman would be 12% less accurate then a Pistoleer using a blaster.

Again spend some time and at least do some research before calling for Nerfs.

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First of all, I was not crying for nerfs. This game is fubared and as far as I am concerned, nerfs is the worst way to change it. Still, I don't see why a Blaster should have those mods.

And I'm sorry that I did do the research. Fact is, I don't know nearly as much about this game mechanics as you do. So thanks for proving me wrong on one aspect.

I am still asking you (not because I'm too lazy, but because I really and honestly don't know how you come up with those numbers): How much did Pistoleer IMPROVE with that gun? Or is your point that the range modifiers do not matter AT ALL and I should be able to hit as good (or only 12% worse) with my rifle at 64 and at 0 meters distance (assuming Master rifleman and ignoring melee damage modifier)?


On a last note, if you think the "call for a nerf" in this thread is not justified, I'd really suggest you talk to our rifle correspondant, who officially asked for a nerf. When I'm whining, I'm getting ignored anyway. Oh, and when you ask him, provide those numbers please. Because chances might be that HE (and all others in this thread) do not know those numbers.


I really appreciate your input, and I apologize because obviously I was wrong. But if you had stated in the begining of this thread that it is a moot point, because pistoleers hit with 95% at max range WITH ANY PISTOL anyway, then maybe "the rifleman" had not called to "nerf the pistoleers".

If you want to see how I came to these conclussions here is the post on accuracy: http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=rifleman&message.id=28463

There are 2 things that are not know for a fact:

1. that the minimum and max chance to hit are 5% and 95%.

2. That the base to hit if there are no modifier is 65%.

What my test did point out is the 65% is probably right, as for the 5% and 95%, I could probably do a test to check these both, but they dont concern me enough to spend the time.

As for your question on modifier if they dont matter, the answer is YES the do matter, but in the case of a Master Rifleman fighting a Master Pistoleer they do not because each does not have a high enough defense to lower the others attack below the 95%. Now if one or the other had say, TKA or Fencing then you would see the modifier playing a roll.

For instance the test I did. If Ganguss would have used a blaster instead of a scatter he would have improved his accuracy to 56% at range, BUT unless he changed guns he would not see any improvement when he closed the distance. The problem for him is he is pure offensive and has all but 7 range D, so while he faced only being able to hit me a little over 50% of the time, I would using the calculation hit him 95% regardless of what range we were at.

I hadea idea what the calculation was for accuracy before I did the test and wanted to see if I could validate it. The test ended up being very close, actually the hit percentage was a little lower then what itshould have been, but very close. Like I said on my accuracy post if someone can do some tests and show me a diffrent way they think accuracy is calculated I would love to hear it.

Lastly I did make a comment about our correspondent jumping to conclussions and hastly asking for a hot fix on this weapon in a diffrent post.

I think both of you are wrong on several accounts. First, I'm all for letting this gun stay in for a month until the next publish to see how things go. Second, it's hardly fair to compare a Master Pistoleer anda Master Rifleman, though it is the easiest. Try comparing them at different levels to find out who is really better. Third, no pistol should be that good at ranged on its own and no rifle should be that great at close range (the spraystick isn't even that good). My point is thatbeforemodifiers, pistols should have a big minus at 64m and rifles should have a big minus up close, as they're intended to be. At master level, I could see them being equal, but the Republic Blaster isn't a master level weapon, is it? (Note: this isn't rhetorical. If you actually know where the cert for the Republic Blaster comes from, I'd love to know .)

No, I have to agree with SilverLobo now. I still don't understand where some of the numbers are coming from, but I trust him on this. If the modifier was changed, it would not change anything for me as a Master Rifleman, and it would change just very little if I had some other ranged defense skill. I still think it's a strange gun, and you can complain about the armor piercing, the DPS, the cert at novice (or wherever it is). But us rifleman complaining about this range modifier seems stupid (if I understand SilverLobo correctly). And we should not cry for a nerf if it won't make a difference to us at all.

Now you could complain that it's not balanced that a pistoleer should hit at 95% at 64 meters, but then WE should not hit at 95% at 0 meters either. And if I really hit that good at close range, I'm a happy camper. Or Rifleman. Or Sharpshooter. Or whatever...

Silver,

You keep comparing the T21 (elite weapon) to the Republic Blaster (a cert gained by an unknown process). The T21 isn't the most common riflemen weapon. It's usually the Laser Rifle (some servers still haven't gotten the T21). So compare those two. You have the Laser Rifle at -50 at max while the Republic Blaster is +0 at the same range.

The point of my post wasn't to compare the accuracy of a Master Riflemen to Master Pistoleer. It's to draw attention to the fact that there is now a pistol that is INHERANTLY more accurate at max range than all rifles save one. That is the problem. If there is a problem with Pistoleer vs Riflemen accuracy then they can increase the Pistoleers base accuracy like what was done to us. That's how you fix it. You don't make a short range weapon (pistol) that is more accurate than all long range weapons (rifles) save one. That makes no sense and infringes on what is suppose to be the territory of the rifleman.