Rifleman Archive
Thread: The range mod posts in Corre Forums
Ihave,I have posted about HAM costs many many times, you can check my posts, but the Devs donothing about it.Riflemen havecomplained about 2.5 melee for bloody ages (I happen to like it, but there are 1000s of postsagainst it). I've been saying for ages that novices need help. We have tried to get this stupid mob warping bug fixed for months, I've sent in loads of bug reports about it, it has only just got athread from Holo.
"Instead of trying to nerf each other, we should be working together to fix our classes. We both have so many screwups and problems in our classes that nerfing each other should not be our #1 priority."
The only reason that pistols are looking like nerf bait is because THEY wanted (if you check the thread the pistol correspondent was all over it)a speed nerf for high end riflemen. So in fact you are victims of doing what you are here complaining about. They forgot to mention that riflemen are out of mind after 10 shots with a T21 and the AP is bugged.
Whenever anyone comes here asking if they should take rifle the answer from me is: not unless you go to master, because of the speed you gain at master.
I didn't level off exploits, I leveled off warping GBN, I died every about5 pulls because I didn't have CH and they warped on top of me. It took a **edit** long time to get to master and I'm not about to sit here and listen to someone tell me what I think doesn't matter because I'm master, if anything I have experienced all levels of rifleman.
If you bothered to read my post you might notice me metion the HAM costs in PvE, and how a pistoleer can use specials all day while using a stim to get his action back. A rifleman (master or not) can't. I've also stated in previous posts that I would like to see some of the speed bonuses moved DOWN the rifleman tree so novice doesn't suck so much. The speed changes do effect novice riflemen, unless they don't know about the spraystick.
I supported a proposal to allow cover to increase riflemans range, how you can kite using cover I have yet to work out, but I guess you didn't read that post.
I'm not in favour of stopping pistols from shooting at 64m, but I'm also not in favour of gimping master rifleman with this proposed speed cap. Instead of the proposed changes bringing novice rifleman up to the level of novice pistoleers this brings master riflemen closer to the level of novice riflemen.
Love the way you avoided the BH combined with pistoleer getting a double benefit from any pistoleer "fixes".
My reasoning is:
If you want to be the fastest shot in the game, which is why the speed fix was proposed (IMO), why should you also suffer no melee penalty, have the same DPS and the same accuracy at long range?
The speed issue isriflemen doing massive amounts of damagein PvP only as I see it, the downtime takes care of any short term advantage a rifleman might have in PvE. From what I've read of the speed issue a lot of it was comparing short term DPS without taking into account misses or HAM use at all, it seemed to be a "they are doing higher DPS, this isn't fair" issue. While I agree the way speed works is silly, so is dropping a classes damage down by1/3 and doing nothing about the other classes damage. Here lies my problem, if at 64m a rifleman and a pistoleer do the same damage, hit the same amount, but one can close the distance and do just fine while the other becomes a gimp, why play the rifleman? Where is the advantage of playing a long range class, when there is no long range advantage?
As a the speed proposal is therefore a big nerf to master riflemen in PvP we feel we (I say we, I'm guessing most masters arn't very happy at losing the speed)need something back for this reduction of DPS. This can come in many forms. However, the Devs seem very reluctant to let us one shotany more than we do, so there goes damage. They seem to be unable or unwilling to increase range at all. So this leaves us sitting in cover hoping we don't miss, doing poor DPS andthe target doesn't see us and simply run up to us with a newbie knife for a quick kill. While the pistol user can head right for us while spamming "whateverisbestskillnow" at 1 shot per second with great accuracy, and if they choose to take BH they will get the added bonus of knocking down a prone person then hitting them for mind damage.
Unless our accuracy is fixed we arn't going to be very good at kiting anyway.
It's not so much a case of nerfing pistoleers, as trying to stopour class becoming quite poor. Unlike pistoleers (and carbs)we do not have a tree other than marksman that can improve our accuracy or give us nice specials. The only thing that improved rifle was master marksman, which would be taken away by this new system. We can take a melee class, but if we are having to go to melee all the time because people can close the gap so fast, where is the point in rifle?
This is before you even consider the wonderful prospect of sitting there in cover while 3 pets run at almost burst speed over to you.
I just don't see the (dis)advantages between pistols and rifles adding up after this proposed patch. Aldeons suggestion is the only thing I can think of that the Devs might accept that would give us a chance. They just don't seem to want to address any other rifleman issues while addressing the main pistoleer one, which it seems is a nerf to riflemen.
While I would rather not see riflemen turn into kite masters, I'd take that over being free FPs.
I wish there was an edit button. 
Getting late here and I keep making silly mistakes.
You guys can still attack from 64 meters. You just wont be able to use your styles from taht range in aldeons proposed solution. That is just one of the fixes possible. The problem is the fact that the styles like body shot 2 pistols get have a huge accuracy modifier on them. Which means a pistol using autofire from 64 m is very innacurate. But when styles are added in pistoleers become more accurate at max range. A solution would be to modify pistol specials so the accuracy modifier is samller at far ranges and bigger at close ranges. And the exact opposite for rifleman. Our specials should increase are accuracy a lot at ideal range but not much at point blank. There is a problem with range modifiers. Rifleman should be better at 64m then pistol users.
Also I think something needs to be done about the BH/pistoleer. the mods shouldnt stack.Pistols already have an unfair advantage over carbines and rifles with profession options. Pistols have Smuggler/BH/Commando/Pistoleer. Carbines have BH/Carbineer and rifle usersget rifleman only.
In regards to the pistoleer correspondent.
"The tyranny of the ignoramuses is insurmountable and assured for all time" -- Albert Einstein
ok, this idea is absurd to me. with that said, the hard cap of speed is ment to make it so rifles can't fire as fast as pistols or carbines. pistols are suppose to be the fastest but lowest dmg, and rifles are suppose to be the slowest wiht the highest dmg. but this didn't work out since rifles can fire as fast as pistols but do more dmg.
you may have problems with your class but setting smaller ranges for pistols will no get them fixed. it only creates more problems. limiting any ranged class to 30m is not the way to go.(i don't care is i can auto fire outside this range) it would still let me be kited by carbines and rifle users.
the only time i used rifle was to get to master marksman, and i have no intention of ever using rifles. i felt the mind cost was too high after using pistol for so long.(got master pistoleer before master marksman) so i realize your class has bigger issues than range...work on those first and maybe range won't seem so important anymore.
AldeonAvardulin wrote:
Im not asking to nerf any particular class, Im asking them to fix range mods so we are in fact the masters of range. I proposed a solution, one of many possible, one that I though would be the best. It makes it so Pistoleer styles work at 32 meters or less, caribineers 54 meters or less, and rifleman 64 meters or less. A designer responded to this saying it wasp retty much a good idea except for the facti with connection issues, its all -15 meters, so in fact it would be 18 meters instead if 32 meters.
Aldeon, let's look at some quick numbers:
A 32m radius circle covers 3,200 square meters.
A 64m radius circle covers 12,800 square meters.
Are you suggesting that your specials should apply to targets in an area which is four times the size of our effective area?
To equalize the areas, your specials should only work if your target is between 55 and 64 meters away. I would never in a million years suggest this change, but you are suggesting an equivalent change to the Pistoleer class.
I think it would be far better to enhance rifles such that they don't carry such profound penalties at close range, and such a huge melee damage hit. Wouldn't you rather enhance your own class, rather than breaking ours?
-c.
vGeist wrote:
Yes, please make it so riflemen can shoot you, but you can't shoot them. Oh so fair.
Very well, then all melee combatants should be able to attack from 64m.
A couple of points -
1) Rifles have a lot of issues more likely to get fixed/implemented than this one - Just off the top of my head, a melee defense manuever, improvements to cover and sniper abilities spring to mind. (I would love to see a melee range rifle-club manuever with a KD added - just as an example)
2) You seem to have completely missed that point that with the new speed cap PROPERLY making rifles slower than pistols/carbines even at Master Rifleman level, rifle damagewill be "re-evalutated" upwards - which given that master rifleman are already doing 600pt expert headshots in pvp means that you will be getting one-shot kills back. (And if you don't see a problem with weapons supposedly being "balanced" by their base speeds and then all firing at 1.0spd in the hands of a master then you need to take the blinders off)
3) Weapon accuracy and modifiers are still being tweaked - they have admitted as much, if you have a beef with how they are - run some tests and prove it. There are a couple of people on Tarq running really exhaustive tests of pistol accuracy and the mods from specials - try reading that thread and running similar tests with rifles. That way you might actually have some numbers to prove a point or two. (In my experience ALL accuracy is too high when using specials - my average experience with rifleman in pvp is that 75%+ of their specials hit me as well - regardless of wether we're at 5m or 50m, running/tumbling whatever.)
Wait a second you mean that pistol shots go around in a cocentric circle continuously expanding outward to hit us? **edit** I had no idea...then how do they get to us so fast? Oh thats right they go straight at us as in a line as in 32 meters. And explain to me why a pistol should be good outside that range? I don't seem to recall anyone using a pistol to shoot anyone in the military ever, unless it was practically pointblank or a duel. Since my name isn't Burr I'd prefer to keep my rifle and shoot you like a military man does.
Elanoic wrote:
Aldeon, let's look at some quick numbers:
A 32m radius circle covers 3,200 square meters.
A 64m radius circle covers 12,800 square meters.
Are you suggesting that your specials should apply to targets in an area which is four times the size of our effective area?
I find it hard to understand why you people cant work out what the purpose of range changes is
Pistol - Good at short range
Thats it only surposed be good at short range there ideal range is 8m to 16 m do any you pistoler complain i can hit at 60 m just fine. Of course not the accuracy bonuses you receave while progressing up pistoler line mean that while running you can shot the wings of a butterfly at 48m OUTSIDE your ideal range.
So Alderon proposes a HARD range cap to go with the HARD speed cap so there is no way for pistoler to bypass the range penalites by stacking range bonus. DOESNT matter how high the devs make range penalties when consider there is +22 pistol accuracy taps in the game !.
Carbines are good at close and medium range and SHOULD fire FASTER then pistols sorry they are machine guns. he proposes a range cap of 54 m which is farly good in my opinion would make carbines very usefull in cities.
Rifleman- Surposed be great at medium to long range fire unfortantly due to accuracy bonuses EVERYONE is great at longrange fire.
HARD speed cap = HARD range cap
Thats the trade of that Alderon is asking for