Rifleman Archive
Thread: The poop on the Combat rebalance, someone FINNALLY got answers from Fan Fest.
DarkShade9 wrote:
Waste93 wrote:
DarkShade9 wrote:
oh and to add something constructive to this post. Riflemen do need to be nerfed, maybe only a little, but heres how id do it.
Not really. Riflemen is actually a working profession. That is why they seem overpowered. They work while others do not.
I disagree, nobody shoudl be able to huge amounts of damage to an unhealable pool with a wepons that cuts through most armour and other prtoection with ease.
The amounts of damage were negated by the amounts a rifleman could shoot. Whenall thebuffs were introduced. The damage rifleman did through armor werent that a big deal untill everyone was used to 80% protection to everything. Rifleman havent changed (apart from a few bugfixes and removal of 2.5x modifier), the rest of the world has.
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
Zelos1 wrote:
*** Some of this may not be news, I'm not familiar with what information is not already available. This information largely comes from Dave White, one of the main devs on the combat system ***
"You will not ever be able to kill yourself"
Here's why: There will now be ability point pools available for Health Action and Mind. These pools are constrained by the maximum size of the corresponding HAM pool (including wounds/buffs) but do not take damage from incoming attacks.Instead, points are only drainable from these pools through the use of specials.
Ability point pools will drain much faster (i.e. costs of specials increased) but will regen much faster as well. The same secondary stats will affect ability pool drain/regen as affect the HAM drain/regen. Ability point pools can not be used to incap/kill a player.
"Nobody will attack specific pools."
Further explanation revealed this is sort of true. Professions will still keep torso/health, leg/action and head/mind shots. However, these shots have a substantially decreased accuracy modifier and are not guaranteed to hit the pool targetted, though they are likely to. All three pools will be healable, though he specifically noted that this might NOT be through stimpacks by a Medic. For those who would argue that this is status quo due to Combat Medic healing, the words he used at one point were "we need to make mind damage healable" - which presumably means he doesn't consider it effectively healable now.
1) "Slow weapons will be slow even when used by masters, just not as slow as when used by novices."
All weapon speed calaculations are being redone. In fact, the existing speed formulas are being tossed out entirely.
2) Not all players will move at the same speed. An example given was if someone has a rifle equipped that "he's gonna have to put it away to move at full speed".
3) Equipping and unequippingweapons and armorwill now enter the combat queue so that they do not happen instantaneously. The possibility of additional delay on these actions was mentioned but details were not given.
One special mentioned was the ability to stand after a knockdown at a significant ability point cost. Another was a melee rifelman tactic. It is unclear whether these are examples of what will be in the system or just what MIGHT be in the system.
1 + 2 + 3 +64m max range = Dead Riflemen
So we shoot really slow, move really slow, and if need to runaway have to wait until our weapon is put away- yay this is gonna be fun
Looks like I'm gonna be a Jedi, the only viable combat profession
Message Edited by PyscoJuggalo on 06-05-2004 09:59 PM
Having been a BH in the past I agree it is hardly worth the amount of skill points to gain and that it should be a rare profession, however I have to say I have seen a large amount of players carrying the MBH, Stalker, Enforcer or Avenger titles and not just the Desperado (of those Pistoleer guys) more often in the past week than I have in the past year of playing this game. I'm grinding Ranger outside Coronet or Theed on Radiant and I get asked every 2 minutes if I need training in marksman or scout. The only reason I can think of why alot of players are going to this profession is the Mandolarian armor.
Sorry to getting off-topic a little there.
Vicci A'Tivo - Elder "in your face" Bounty Hunter
DarkShade9 wrote
I disagree, nobody shoudl be able to huge amounts of damage to an unhealable pool with a wepons that cuts through most armour and other prtoection with ease.
The issue isn't Riflemen. It was changes made to other professions. Only when high end armor and buffs came out did the Jawa become an issue. Why? Because everyone wanted to be invulnerable. They didn't like the idea that there was a weapon that could cut thru their armor.
Secondly why is the mind pool an issue? It's because of buffs and stims. You can get buffs that boost your Health/Action pools by 2400 points. You can also get stims to heal those pools. As you can see none of those changes were done to Riflemen. Riflemen is pretty much the same as they were at release. It's changes to other professions that have made it so.
Thirdly this is only an issue in PvP. Something that most people don't even do.
I cant speak for everyone, but i use pistols and carbines and i personallly would welcome these changes, it would add another tactical element to combat.
Then you would be one of the few exceptions that would welcome those.
there is no mechanical reason for this to be true? I think there is. If you have ever fired a bolt action rifle, you would know that it is a lot slower than an smg. However i think your view of the rifles in swg are like the assault rifles in real life. i believe this view to be faulty as the devs have said on several occasions that they view this porfessions as a sniper. and no sniper uses an ak 47 or other such assault rifle - unless of course they strap on a scope and fire it in single shot mode.
I have fired those weapons. However you apparently do not know your weapons. You are comparing a bolt aciton rifle to a full auto. You are comparing two different things. However what fires faster, a semi auto rifle or semi auto pistol? That is the correct comparrison.
I can use your own example to show why rifles should fire faster. What fires faster, a muzzle loading pistol or an assault rifle? Better yet, are not the Pistols suppose to be like revolvers. Based on some of the skills and titles in Pistoleer that seems about right. What fires faster, a single action revolver or an assault rifle?
Can you see the absurdity of your comparrison now? It's based on a false premise and is invalid.
The rifles in SWG are like assault rifles. Read their descriptions from the RPG.
The Devs are in error as are you. There can be no snipers in this game. Not with a max range of 64m, inability to remain hidden, and no one shot kills. All hallmarks of snipers. At the ranges used in SWG you wouldn't even want a scope on a weapon. The ranges are to close for it to be used effectively.
No sniper uses an AK47? Not quite true. A number of sniper rifles are based off of assault rifles. The Soviet Druganov is a semi-atuo AK for all intents and purposes. Fires adifferent caliber and has a longer barrel. But it's an AK receiver. The Germans use the PSG1 which is based off the H&K G3. The Israeli's have a sniper version of the Galil. The US army use to use the M21 which was just an accurized M14.
That is just assault rifles. Military rifles have almost always been the basis for sniper rifles. In WWII all the sniper rifles were just accurized versions of general issue rifles. Same in WWI.
More to the point however is that this game was always designed with the idea that pistols were the fastest, carbines the second fastest, and rifles and heavy weapons the slowest. - if you can get ur hands on a genuine t21 or jawa ion rifle, feel free to break it open and explain why mechanically it cannot fire as fast as a pistol.
According to official Star Wars sources, the T21 can fire once a second at it SLOWEST setting.
I keep seeing people say that pistols are suppose to fire the fastest, etc. But where did this idea come from? I've not seen the Devs say this. Nor does it make any kind of sense. If the game was designed this way as you say, then rifles would not have fired as fast as they presently do. The speed mods have been in since release have they not? No, the game was not designed with this in mind. It's just a statement made to justify what some want.
Its important to remember that this is only a game, and despite how unrealistsic or how much it goes against continuity, its imperative that everything is balanced, and in order to do so, the more powerfull, longer ranged and more accurate weapons will have to be slower.
of course like you said this does not take into account the other aspects that proffessions offer. therefore, like i said, the figures i put forward would have to be subject to massive tweaking.
Yes they have to be balanced. But it can not be done in the traditional sense since we do not have classes but professions where we can pick and choose skills. Look at the FotM professions. Almost all of them were hybrids. You had the BH/Pistoleer template, Riflemen/CM, then the defense stackers, etc. The one exception was Commandos when they first got their fix.
There are three main areas for the combat professions. Those are offensive power, defensive power, and combat multipliers. Combat multipliers are status effect attacks, AoE, and things like that.
So you balance by making a role for each profession. Riflemen are the damage dealers. The should do the second most damage. They have some combat multipliers. Namely some AoE attacks. But few status effect attacks. They have few defenses. They have good ranged and melee defense. But they have very poor status defenses.
Pistoleers are different. They would have low offenses. Mid level combat multipliers, and high defenses. Cabineers are mid level offense, high combat multipliers, and mid to low defenses.
That is the only way you can effectively balance with this system and retain the individual flavor of the professions.
Thats probabaly a bit better, however you dont want the tka's closing intoo faston the ranged proffs otherwise they would be overpowered and more balancing would be required.
Agree. This is going to be a delicate issue. Made more so by the very short ranges involved. 64m is less than the distance on the typical rifle range. In the game this distance can be closed in a couple seconds. Yet you also want to give rifles a 2.25 second delay and no accuracy at min range. That means the Rifleman gets one shot. After that the melee profession is on them and the Rifleman can not hit them. Nor can they run away. Furthermore you want to cut the damage of the rifle so that one shot they have isn't going to do much.
lol you and i both know that no professions will ever be fully working, at least under soe, however the combat balance is coming. The devs have been using this as an excuse for everything that is wrong with the game. IF they pull it off and do what they promise ( basically fix every broken profession, balance them with everyone else and make my printer spit 20$ bills at me) ill be happy, but more likely than not they'll screw it up again and we'll basically be back to square 1.
The last part is much more likely. There is a reason they have not given information to the players about the comming balance. Namely they know how badly received and poorly conceived it probably is. They also know that it doesn't address the major issue of fixing the broken professions.
If they were planning on fixing the broken professions it makes sense they would have gone to the boards and said this. They haven't. They could make a couple statements on the combat profession boards saying "Hey, we are going to fix a couple things, here is a basic outline of what we are looking at, just be patient." That wold hold a number of people over for a bit.
Instead we get the "Wait for the combat balance." No info on the combat balance though. Just a generic statement on how it will be "dynamic" or some other great sounding verb.
If they were going to fix the professions in the combat rebalance the Smuggler revamp would not have been pushed back yet again. It would have been part of the combat rebalance.
Message Edited by Waste93 on 06-06-2004 11:39 AM
Yeah, because you can't already spam HeadShot3 and StrafeShot2 once per second already. Quit whining.
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
So we're back to novice speeds and can't even run away if **edit** hits the fanIf they don't double/triple our damage we're pretty much dead in any situation. Ah well, it'll be nice to be the only rifleman in a 4 klick radius.
xZeroSignalx wrote:
Yeah, because you can't already spam HeadShot3 and StrafeShot2 once per second already. Quit whining.
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
So we're back to novice speeds and can't even run away if **edit** hits the fan
Thats because if we couldnt spam it that fast it would regen faster than the damage we would deal to the enemy.
I mean it takes a helluva long time to kill someone as it is with stun armor and buffs.
nikolai wrote:
xZeroSignalx wrote:
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
So we're back to novice speeds and can't even run away if **edit** hits the fan
Yeah, because you can't already spam HeadShot3 and StrafeShot2 once per second already. Quit whining.
hmm..generally we cant....
Thats because if we couldnt spam it that fast it would regen faster than the damage we would deal to the enemy.
I mean it takes a helluva long time to kill someone as it is with stun armor and buffs.
Well, it doesn't look like the sky if falling?
/sarcasm off
I have a rifleman myself. The fact of the matter is that we have NO idea how these changes will play out in the new combat system. We all need to calm down until we get some hard info from the Devs.
Mmm, a large nerf coming, I sense
is that better?, sorry my typing is abysmally poor, no flame or trolling intended
Waste93 wrote:
DarkShade9 wrote
I disagree, nobody shoudl be able to huge amounts of damage to an unhealable pool with a wepons that cuts through most armour and other prtoection with ease.
The issue isn't Riflemen. It was changes made to other professions. Only when high end armor and buffs came out did the Jawa become an issue. Why? Because everyone wanted to be invulnerable. They didn't like the idea that there was a weapon that could cut thru their armor.
Secondly why is the mind pool an issue? It's because of buffs and stims. You can get buffs that boost your Health/Action pools by 2400 points. You can also get stims to heal those pools. As you can see none of those changes were done to Riflemen. Riflemen is pretty much the same as they were at release. It's changes to other professions that have made it so.
Thirdly this is only an issue in PvP. Something that most people don't even do.
Ok, i find your argument here to be irrelevant. You are saying that riflemen shouldnt be nerfed because they have not changed at all, its only because other profs have changed that they are so powerful now. Be that as it may, you are sill hitting an unhealable pool for high amounts of damage accurately and quickly. Even, as many riflemen will claim, if everyone has stun armour with 40% resists, u still have a t21 with 700 max firing at 1 shot per scond with ap3( a slight exaggeration perhaps,for the average riflemen, however a few of my buddies do just this)which will cut through the much lower protection that stun armour offers to energy, i think the best ive seen is 66% energy (and base)with 42% stun, unsliced and thats an expensive helmett, 250k +, not many will have those.
I cant speak for everyone, but i use pistols and carbines and i personallly would welcome these changes, it would add another tactical element to combat.
Then you would be one of the few exceptions that would welcome those.
Regardless of my statement, you atempt to speak for everyone, do u have a correspondant title to go along with your name? no? therefore you can speak only for yourself.
there is no mechanical reason for this to be true? I think there is. If you have ever fired a bolt action rifle, you would know that it is a lot slower than an smg. However i think your view of the rifles in swg are like the assault rifles in real life. i believe this view to be faulty as the devs have said on several occasions that they view this porfessions as a sniper. and no sniper uses an ak 47 or other such assault rifle - unless of course they strap on a scope and fire it in single shot mode.
I have fired those weapons. However you apparently do not know your weapons. You are comparing a bolt aciton rifle to a full auto. You are comparing two different things. However what fires faster, a semi auto rifle or semi auto pistol? That is the correct comparrison.
I think you misunderstood me here, the very thing i am attempting to do is to compare two completely different things. The smg (which represents carbines) fires faster than the bolt action rifle (what swg rifles should be like).
I can use your own example to show why rifles should fire faster. What fires faster, a muzzle loading pistol or an assault rifle? Better yet, are not the Pistols suppose to be like revolvers. Based on some of the skills and titles in Pistoleer that seems about right. What fires faster, a single action revolver or an assault rifle?
Can you see the absurdity of your comparrison now? It's based on a false premise and is invalid.
The rifles in SWG are like assault rifles. Read their descriptions from the RPG.
The Devs are in error as are you. So the people who made and maitntain this game have no idea what they're talking about in regards to how swg rifles should be?
There can be no snipers in this game. Not with a max range of 64m, inability to remain hidden, and no one shot kills. All hallmarks of snipers. At the ranges used in SWG you wouldn't even want a scope on a weapon. The ranges are to close for it to be used effectively.
that why i suggested limiting the ranges on other weapons
No sniper uses an AK47? Not quite true.Actually its completely true, the druganove may be similar, it may have a ak reciever , but its not an ak.A number of sniper rifles are based off of assault rifles. The Soviet Druganov is a semi-atuo AK for all intents and purposes. Fires adifferent caliber and has a longer barrel. But it's an AK receiver. The Germans use the PSG1 which is based off the H&K G3. The Israeli's have a sniper version of the Galil. The US army use to use the M21 which was just an accurized M14. id like to direct you to a statement i made earlier in the post. "and no sniper uses an ak 47 or other such assault rifle - unless of course they strap on a scope and fire it in single shot mode. "
That is just assault rifles. Military rifles have almost always been the basis for sniper rifles. In WWII all the sniper rifles were just accurized versions of general issue rifles. Same in WWI. Not all rifles, late in WW2 the Americans use the M1 garand, and while sniper versions of it were available, Many prefered the increased accuracy of the springlfield, which was bolt action and therefoe hadfewer moving parts( which increases acuracy). Whilst the springfield was the general issue rifle in WW1 and i think for some part of WW2 (altough im a littly hazy) it was replaced by the garand. Therefore for a short time, nearer the end of WW2 a non, gneral issue rifle, was the preferred sniper rifle of american soldiers. (lol, i may have my facts completely messed up but hey.lol, havin read this, it doesnt really dispove your point, it just some rambling, and i think better stop typing now.........)
More to the point however is that this game was always designed with the idea that pistols were the fastest, carbines the second fastest, and rifles and heavy weapons the slowest. - if you can get ur hands on a genuine t21 or jawa ion rifle, feel free to break it open and explain why mechanically it cannot fire as fast as a pistol.
According to official Star Wars sources, the T21 can fire once a second at it SLOWEST setting.
i dont read the eu, or that other cr@p, i just watch the films. Although the t21 alwaysremnded me of a heavy machinw gun, maybe we should give it to commandos eh.
I keep seeing people say that pistols are suppose to fire the fastest, etc. But where did this idea come from? I've not seen the Devs say this The devs have said this, i cant be a$$ed to dig up a quote, but im positive th has said it numerous times. Nor does it make any kind of sense. It doesnt make sense, its a game.Does star wars make sense?If the game was designed this way as you say, then rifles would not have fired as fast as they presently do. presently without seas, rifles are pretty slow, and besides, we all know how good the devs are at getting things right the first time.The speed mods have been in since release have they not? No, the game was not designed with this in mind. It's just a statement made to justify what some want.
Its important to remember that this is only a game, and despite how unrealistsic or how much it goes against continuity, its imperative that everything is balanced, and in order to do so, the more powerfull, longer ranged and more accurate weapons will have to be slower.
of course like you said this does not take into account the other aspects that proffessions offer. therefore, like i said, the figures i put forward would have to be subject to massive tweaking.
Yes they have to be balanced. But it can not be done in the traditional sense since we do not have classes but professions where we can pick and choose skills. Look at the FotM professions. Almost all of them were hybrids. You had the BH/Pistoleer template, Riflemen/CM, then the defense stackers, etc. The one exception was Commandos when they first got their fix.
There are three main areas for the combat professions. Those are offensive power, defensive power, and combat multipliers. Combat multipliers are status effect attacks, AoE, and things like that.
So you balance by making a role for each profession. Riflemen are the damage dealers. The should do the second most damage. They have some combat multipliers. Namely some AoE attacks. But few status effect attacks. They have few defenses. They have good ranged and melee defense. But they have very poor status defenses.
Pistoleers are different. They would have low offenses. Mid level combat multipliers, and high defenses. Cabineers are mid level offense, high combat multipliers, and mid to low defenses.
That is the only way you can effectively balance with this system and retain the individual flavor of the professions.
Thats probabaly a bit better, however you dont want the tka's closing intoo faston the ranged proffs otherwise they would be overpowered and more balancing would be required.
Agree. This is going to be a delicate issue. Made more so by the very short ranges involved. 64m is less than the distance on the typical rifle range. In the game this distance can be closed in a couple seconds. Yet you also want to give rifles a 2.25 second delay
and no accuracy at min range. i never said that
That means the Rifleman gets one shot. After that the melee profession is on them and the Rifleman can not hit them. Nor can they run away. Furthermore you want to cut the damage of the rifle so that one shot they have isn't going to do much.i never said that either.
lol you and i both know that no professions will ever be fully working, at least under soe, however the combat balance is coming. The devs have been using this as an excuse for everything that is wrong with the game. IF they pull it off and do what they promise ( basically fix every broken profession, balance them with everyone else and make my printer spit 20$ bills at me) ill be happy, but more likely than not they'll screw it up again and we'll basically be back to square 1.
The last part is much more likely. There is a reason they have not given information to the players about the comming balance. Namely they know how badly received and poorly conceived it probably is. They also know that it doesn't address the major issue of fixing the broken professions.
If they were planning on fixing the broken professions it makes sense they would have gone to the boards and said this. They haven't. They could make a couple statements on the combat profession boards saying "Hey, we are going to fix a couple things, here is a basic outline of what we are looking at, just be patient." That wold hold a number of people over for a bit.
Instead we get the "Wait for the combat balance." No info on the combat balance though. Just a generic statement on how it will be "dynamic" or some other great sounding verb.
If they were going to fix the professions in the combat rebalance the Smuggler revamp would not have been pushed back yet again. It would have been part of the combat rebalance.
They are fixing things, borken specials and stuff, or so they claim.
Smugglers arent really broken as such, they're jut a poorly concieved class, they dont actually smuggle. the smuggler revamp is more content orintated than bug fixes.
Message Edited by Waste93 on 06-06-2004 11:39 AM
Message Edited by DarkShade9 on 06-07-2004 12:00 AM