Rifleman Archive
Thread: The poop on the Combat rebalance, someone FINNALLY got answers from Fan Fest.
nikolai wrote:
Wow guys, I'm so confused as to who is responding to whom.
DarkShade9 wrote:
ok, id just like to say that this idea was not a long hard labour of mine whch ive lost any sleep over, it was just an idea that ithrew together when reading this post about the nerfsthat are coming. its not important to me really, so you can flame the hell out of it if u like heh. ill keep on replying just cuz i like a good discussion. Well, now, lets crack on with the novel eh.
Ok, i find your argument here to be irrelevant. You are saying that riflemen shouldnt be nerfed because they have not changed at all, its only because other profs have changed that they are so powerful now. Be that as it may, you are sill hitting an unhealable pool for high amounts of damage accurately and quickly. Even, as many riflemen will claim, if everyone has stun armour with 40% resists, u still have a t21 with 700 max firing at 1 shot per scond with ap3( a slight exaggeration perhaps,for the average riflemen, however a few of my buddies do just this)which will cut through the much lower protection that stun armour offers to energy, i think the best ive seen is 66% energy (and base)with 42% stun, unsliced and thats an expensive helmett, 250k +, not many will have those.
You calculations on the T21 are more than a bit off. Crafted T21's have max damage in the 400 range.
Also your resist level seem a bit low but that could be armor on your server. Energy resists on my server were at 77% prior to a slicing.\
Regardless of my statement, you atempt to speak for everyone, do u have a correspondant title to go along with your name? no? therefore you can speak only for yourself.
I've never claimed to speak for anyone other than myself.
I think you misunderstood me here, the very thing i am attempting to do is to compare two completely different things. The smg (which represents carbines) fires faster than the bolt action rifle (what swg rifles should be like).
Which is why you are in error. There is no indication that Star Wars rifles are in any way like bolt action rifles. I do not see a single "bolt" on any of my weapons. Nor does the data from canon sources indicate this to be true. What it shows is that the weapons are semiautos and assault rifles.
people who made and maitntain this game have no idea what they're talking about in regards to how swg rifles should be?
Considering their track record on continuity that problem wouldn't be an unfair statement. However can you point to any statements by them to show that the rifles in SWG are "bolt action" sytles as you seem to believe?
that why i suggested limiting the ranges on other weapons
Still doesn't help much because of the ability to close the distance. If we were talking about ranges that were significantly different then it might work. But we are talking distances that can be covered in three seconds.
Actually its completely true, the druganove may be similar, it may have a ak reciever , but its not an ak.
Acutally it is an AK. It's just a modified one.Longer barrel, chambered for a different round, and a different sear so it only fires semi auto. But it's still in the AK family.l
I don't know which country ou live in. However if you are in the US, the only part of a firearm that is considered to be a firearm is the receiver. That is why only the receiver has the serial number on it. That is per the BATFE (formerly the ATF). As you stated the Druganov has an AK receiver, that makes it an AK.
Not all rifles, late in WW2 the Americans use the M1 garand, and while sniper versions of it were available, Many prefered the increased accuracy of the springlfield, which was bolt action and therefoe hadfewer moving parts( which increases acuracy). Whilst the springfield was the general issue rifle in WW1 and i think for some part of WW2 (altough im a littly hazy) it was replaced by the garand. Therefore for a short time, nearer the end of WW2 a non, gneral issue rifle, was the preferred sniper rifle of american soldiers. (lol, i may have my facts completely messed up but hey.lol, havin read this, it doesnt really dispove your point, it just some rambling, and i think better stop typing now.........)
Actually that isn't the reason. The Garand sniper versions did not come out until very late in the war. As such it saw very little use in WWII.
The 1903 Springfield was in plentiful early in the war while the Garand was not. Which is why the 03A3 was commonly used and was used throughout the war. Though it's use was moved to rear area troops as Garands became available.
Garand snipers however were general issue in Korea where the Garand service rifle was also in general issue. The return to bolt action rifles by the US military did not really commence until Vietnam. Please see my "Abriged History of Sniping" for more info. A clickable link is provided in my sig.
i dont read the eu, or that other cr@p, i just watch the films. Although the t21 alwaysremnded me of a heavy machinw gun, maybe we should give it to commandos eh.
The T21 canbe used by a single soldier. It also had enough firepower to cut thru Storm Trooper armor rather easily and had a high rate of fire. This made it popular with Alliance soldiers. The T21 is not a heavy machine gun since it can be carried and fired by a single soldier. It's a light machine gun.
However I would agree that Commandos could use a heavy machine gun like weapon such as the E-Web.
devs have said this, i cant be a$$ed to dig up a quote, but im positive th has said it numerous times.
You say this but can't produce the evidence. I'm sure you can understand while I wait to see an offical source.
It doesnt make sense, its a game.Does star wars make sense?
It's a game based on a specific world. We have official canon on a number of issues.
presently without seas, rifles are pretty slow, and besides, we all know how good the devs are at getting things right the first time.
I see a contradiction. First you said rifles fire to fast. Now you say they fire to slow without SEA's. Which one is it?
i never said that
You said that rifles should fire slower and that they should have very poor accuracy up close. Also that their damage should be more in line with other ranged weapons. That has the net effect of doing what I described. Riflemen become a one shot profession. They get one shot that is just as powerful as everyone else, they can't run away because they move slower, the can't hit when the target gets close, and changing weapons is going to take five seconds. By which times they have been hit with a KD/Dizzy for which they have no defense and are laying on their back.
i never said that either.
No you didn't. But that will be the result of your suggestions.
They are fixing things, borken specials and stuff, or so they claim.
Are they fixing things or are they chaning things? There is a difference. I have not heard them say they are fixing things. Though it is possible considering the amount of secrecy surrounding this revamp. However I'm more inclined to believe they are only changing things. I could be proven wrong. We'll know at a later date.
Smugglers arent really broken as such, they're jut a porrly concieved class, tey dont actually smuggle. the smuggler revamp is more content orintated than bug fixes.
I'd like to see what happens if you said this on the Smuggler boards. I just dropped Master Smuggler. They are badly broken. Both their prereqs are combat related. Unarmed IV and Pistols IV. Two of their lines in Smuggler use Pistol XP. However they get no speed or accuracy mods anywhere in Smuggler. They do have some combat skills from Dirty Fighting, some of which were recently nerfed.
Underworld give you the ability to sell faction points at UW IV and language comprehension at UW I.
The spice line has mods of spice experimentation however they can not experiment on any spices, nor does the quality of materials effect the outcome.
Slicing branch. Smugglers can not choose what to slice even at Master level. Also the quality of materials used in the slice have no effect on the out come. Also the higher you go the greater the range of slice. It seems the min is fixed while the max goes up. Resulting in a great range of possible slices. I've had one slice go for 10% then the next go for 44%.
The Master level box is devoid of any skills, mods, or abilities. I would say that qualifies Smuggler as broken.
PS - Check what color you are writing in. Black on black doesn't show up well.
Message Edited by Waste93 on 06-06-2004 03:53 PM
I would say that qualifies Smuggler as broken.
JawaJoey2 wrote:
Okay. First I just have to say to all the morons wanting double or triple damage, GET A CLUE! You already do double or triple damage as the other proffessions, that's why you're going to be slower! Slowing rifles down will take them down to a point where they are equal with others. Tripling your damage will only make you overpowered again.
Nice to see you again Jawa. I see you still don't understand.
As you stated.You want to give everyone the same damage. What about defenses? What about combat multipliers? If you want to make damage the same what about those?
Nic to see you again Waste. I haven't seen you since that debate in the Pistoleer forum. But after reading your posts here I just have to say it. YOU'RE AN IDIOT. SWG Rifles are not like assualt rifles! Period! They are not intended to be! Of all the weapons, carbines are intended to be most similar to assault rifles. His argument was not absurd. He was saying that you are wrong about SWG rifles, and then you said that they were assault rifles again and said he was absurd.
A carbine by definition can not be an assault RIFLE. Rifles are assault rifles. It's canon. Look at the weapons from offical RPG and tell me those are not assault rifles. But don't believe me. Here is a link to an old post that has info on the weapons. Read them.
Oh my GOD please tell me this is a joke.
No, it's called being absurd to show the absurd. It's a debate technique. It's much more effective than name calling.
NO! You are the one with the false premise! ACCEPT IT!
NO THEY AREN'T! Nobody agree with you! Pistoleers, riflemen, and devs alike disagree!
Nobody agress with me? Strange, mnay of the Riflemen here have agreed that rifles are assault rifles. Not sniper rifles. Many have also agreed it is impossible to be snipers given the limitations put in place.
Oh silly me. Everyone in the world is wrong except for you. What was I thinking.
Nope. See above.
OK. And I know all about your vision of total balance. Let me tell you, it's complete and utter crap. Mainly because your idea of balance ISN'T BALANCED. You have said yourself that in a fight between a rifleman and a pistoleer, the rifleman should probably win 80% of the time. I can't comprehend the extent to which your brain must be faulty for you to think that one proffession always beating another is BALANCE. You want there to be a balance around everything, like pistoleers, while losing to riflemen, would win against melee opponents, but that isn't balance, at least not the balancepeople want.The balance people want would be if anyproffession could have an equal chance of winning a fight against any other proffession, by using hte strengths and weaknesses of their proffession. That is what needs to be, and that is what your ridiculous vision does not,and can not do.
The balance you want is not possible.Not unless we change toclasses instead of professions where we can pick and choose weapons.
You want cookiee cutterclasses. Where everyone is the same except for the graphic in their hand.
If everyone has an equal chance against everyother what strengths or weaknesses would they have? It wouldn't matter because you stated it should ALWYAS be a 50/50 fight. For that to be possible they must all have the same weaknesses/strengths.
Now I already know you are going to say I'm wrong, thatyou don't want everyone to be the same. So prove it. Show how they can be different, have different weaknesses/strengths, yet maintain the 50/50 you so dearly want.
My view of balance is each profession having a role to fill. Something they are good against while having a weakness against something else. Your view is everyone the same.For to obtain the balance you ask for these is no other way.
On a side note, no, the things you mentioned dont qualify it as broken. Broken would be if what smuggelrs did didn't work. The truth is, the only thing in smuggler that is "broken" is feign death in PvP. The rest WORKS, there are just problems. There's a difference between that and "broken".
Not broken? Strange, no skills or mods in the Master box. A spice experimentation skill that won't let you experiment. Crafting but having resources not effect the outcome.
Yes Smuggler works in that limited sense. But so does every other profession. They all "work" using your definition. Which I'm sure is great relief to everyone to know since all those saying their profession are broken have no idea what they are talking about according to your definition. I guess even Commandos were not "broken" at release. Sure their weapons were horrible, certs were not working, weapons were given the wrong XP. But hey, it was stillpossible Master the profession.Guess they were "working" using your definition.
In summation. You are stupid. There is something wrong with your brain. Go see a doctor.
Ah. The personal attack. The refuse of those that have no arguement or the emotionaly insecure. Guess we'll be seeing more posting by you since it's summer and school is out.
JawaJoey2 wrote:
I would say that qualifies Smuggler as broken.
undeadrooster wrote:
JawaJoey2 wrote:
I would say that qualifies Smuggler as broken.
Why do we get the pistoleer/smuggler fanbois in here all the time?
Sorry for the misquote. I just don't see what we ever did to bring on their virtiol and ire. I realize why smugglers are pistoleers... I just don't see why they troll the rifleman forums crying nerf more often than the other professions.
Waste93 wrote:
The quote you used was mine. I was a Riflemen/Smuggler. However the reason for Smuggler/Pistoleer is pretty easy. There are no speed or accuracy mods in Smuggler for pistols. Though two of their branches use Pistol XP. Also all the Smuggler combat abilities are based on Pistol. So if you are a Smuggler that wants to use their combat abilities somewhat effectively taking Pistoleer is required.
So the great majority of Smugglers will at least dabble in Pistoleer for that reason. Some even do the triple Master of Smuggler/Pistoleer/TKA.
undeadrooster wrote:
Sorry for the misquote. I just don't see what we ever did to bring on their virtiol and ire. I realize why smugglers are pistoleers... I just don't see why they troll the rifleman forums crying nerf more often than the other professions.
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
Zelos1 wrote:
*** Some of this may not be news, I'm not familiar with what information is not already available. This information largely comes from Dave White, one of the main devs on the combat system ***
"You will not ever be able to kill yourself"
Here's why: There will now be ability point pools available for Health Action and Mind. These pools are constrained by the maximum size of the corresponding HAM pool (including wounds/buffs) but do not take damage from incoming attacks.Instead, points are only drainable from these pools through the use of specials.
Ability point pools will drain much faster (i.e. costs of specials increased) but will regen much faster as well. The same secondary stats will affect ability pool drain/regen as affect the HAM drain/regen. Ability point pools can not be used to incap/kill a player.
"Nobody will attack specific pools."
Further explanation revealed this is sort of true. Professions will still keep torso/health, leg/action and head/mind shots. However, these shots have a substantially decreased accuracy modifier and are not guaranteed to hit the pool targetted, though they are likely to. All three pools will be healable, though he specifically noted that this might NOT be through stimpacks by a Medic. For those who would argue that this is status quo due to Combat Medic healing, the words he used at one point were "we need to make mind damage healable" - which presumably means he doesn't consider it effectively healable now.
1) "Slow weapons will be slow even when used by masters, just not as slow as when used by novices."
All weapon speed calaculations are being redone. In fact, the existing speed formulas are being tossed out entirely.
2) Not all players will move at the same speed. An example given was if someone has a rifle equipped that "he's gonna have to put it away to move at full speed".
3) Equipping and unequippingweapons and armorwill now enter the combat queue so that they do not happen instantaneously. The possibility of additional delay on these actions was mentioned but details were not given.
One special mentioned was the ability to stand after a knockdown at a significant ability point cost. Another was a melee rifelman tactic. It is unclear whether these are examples of what will be in the system or just what MIGHT be in the system.
1 + 2 + 3 +64m max range = Dead Riflemen
So we shoot really slow, move really slow, and if need to runaway have to wait until our weapon is put away- yay this is gonna be fun
Looks like I'm gonna be a Jedi, the only viable combat profession
Message Edited by PyscoJuggalo on 06-05-2004 09:59 PM
I am beginning to believe that the game should be renamed, "Hitchhiker's Guide to Starwars Galaxies," because surely Douglas Adams, may he rest in peace, is in charge of game development. The logic behind development is beginning to get as bizarre as one of his books.
Well, I for one have now lost all hope that this game is redeemable. They have stated that they want combat to be a back and flow kind of thing. This is one of the major reasons for the HAM system changes: they want to severely curtail the use of specials. The limiting factor before was the fact that the cost of specials came from your own HAM. But with with Buffs (doc and foods and spices), HAM use became irrelevant because it became possible to fire specials with no HAM cost. So, until your opponent drops your HAM so low that you are close to dying, you can keep shooting specials non-stop, after that, you die quickly because you cannot keep up with the damage your opponent can do.
Last night, I witnessed a foretaste of this kind of battle. Two PCs were dueling in the Nym's Starport. The battle had started before I got there, and right as I got there the shuttle took off, so I had to wait for the next one. They finally quit after more than 5 minutes of dueling because neither could take the other's HAM out quicker than the other could regenerateor heal it. With all pools being healable in the upcoming changes, and more combat being relegated to autofire because you will not be able to do high damage specials as often and with pool targeting giving you a greater chance of missing altogether and even if you do hit, it may not hit the targeted pool, everything is going to come down to two factors: who can do damage the fastest and who can disadvantage the other player with status and posture changes. That means that Rifleman is screwed in this scenario.
We have no really useful status changes except Stun. Dizzy is only really useful if you can KD the person, and wehave noKD move. It would be useful to keep people from kneeling or going prone so that they are easier to hit, but no one kneels or goes prone in PvP. Which means our only other effect, posture change up, cannot force a voluntary posturechange KD because everyone is already up and have no intention of going down. In fact, our posture changes can actually help someone get up from a kneeling position if they were dizzy because a forced posture change will not KD them, and suddenly they can move again. So the only real use for Dizzy is to keep people from burst running.
And do not get me started on the "status" changes with Strafeshot2. It can remove someone from cover and delay them. Big deal. They have to be prone to be in cover, and no one is prone so no one is cover to remove them from cover. Not only that, but since they are not in cover, they cannot be delayed. So Strafeshot2 has no status effects for all practical purposes. In the 11 months I have been playing this game, I can safely say that I have never removed someone from cover nor delayed them with Strafeshot. In fact, this, being our Master level shot, shows how they intended Rifleman to be played. We should be prone and in cover, but as stated above, that is unviable in PvP because prone= death in PvP, and they are planning on making it even more of an unviable option because they are planning on making it even harder for us to get away, meaning you cannot risk having to take time to get up from a prone position to start kiting. And even if that were not all true, cover only works for Rifle users, so we have a special whose status changes are only effective against us.
Yet not only do we have virtually no usable status changes, we also have some of the lowest defenses against status changes, so we are the most vulnerable to them. And we are also the most vulnerable when people are up close, especially melee opponents given that we do not just have no bonus against melee attacks, we actually have a huge penalty which actually negates the +40 melee defense that we do have.
Currently, to combat this, we have high damage resulting from higher damage weapons and high speed at Master. Therefore, our advantage is to keep away from our opponents and hit them for high damage. If we let them get close, we die. Also, if the battle goes on too long, we die because, while we can attack mind, a currently unhealable pool, we also use mind, an unhealable pool. Plus, the longer the fight goes on, the greater the chance they can hit us with posture changes or catch up to us.
So, what do these changes promise? They take away our ability to fire specials without cost. Yes, they do this for everybody, but almost everybody else can pile on status changes, including KD/Dizzies, the latter of which we have virtually no defense against except keeping away from them and which drops our vaunted DPS to 0 when we get hit with it. With prolonged battles, this just means that there is a huge probability that we will be piled on with so many status effects that we can do nothing even if we are standing or moving.
It also promises that we will not be able to get away. Carrying our rifles, we will have to run slower. And when they catch up to us, we will take longer to switch to a melee weapon, if we have been able to spend the points in acquiring a melee profession.
They are also going to finally do what the whiners have been clamoring for. They are going to take away our speed, probablyin an attempt to equalize DPS. This means that not only have they taken away our ability to keep away, taken away our ability to fire high damage specials to make up for our lack of status change effects and our susceptibility to them, but now we will fire painfully slow when we do fire, and we will no longer be able to rest assured that, even with the slower speed, they cannot repair the damage we have done because mind will be healable.
In this new system, I believe that Rifleman will become unviable. They are taking away the only advantages we have, and I would guess we get nothing in return. Thus, the only way to survive will be to take up other professions and only use rifle as a secondary profession. Rifle as a primary is not going to work. It also means that if you want to be a rifleman, you can forget about anything but an ubber l337 build because, you will not be able to be a Rifleman/Doc, for instance, if you have to pickup another combat profession just to survive. And forget about competing with someone who has opened their force slot, even if they do not becomea Jedi. You will not be able to compete with someone with the force enhanced combat skills.
This game is supposed to be about life in the Starwars Galaxy, about the GCW. It has turned into nothing more than who can build the L337est combat build and who can whine the loudest because their profession does not automatically win. In short, I have no hope left that this game can be redeemed. They have given into the whiners that want to stand toe-to-toe and try to out DPS their opponent even though their profession is not built with that in mind. They may as well do away with all specials, equalize the DPS and make the game a console game where the guy with the fastest thumb always wins.
I will probably stick around until these changes to see if what I fear, as stated above, will come to fruition, but if it does, all I have to say is, "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish" (obligatory "Hitchhiker's" reference now having been made, you can now go about your business).