Rifleman Archive
Thread: The poop on the Combat rebalance, someone FINNALLY got answers from Fan Fest.
I like rifleman and I hadn't even hit speed cap, I play swordsman far more often but when I'm hunting with my guild/group I sit back and shoot away with the rifles so I'm staying with rifleman no matter what.
Vicci A'Tivo - Elder "in your face" Bounty Hunter
SpunkyKuma wrote:
As far as I have heard and read, all combat professions are getting hit in the nuts with the bat- in a good way more or less. It isn't just rifleman that's going to get "hurt" by this rebalance, look at pistoleer and commando, and also BH seems to be the new FOTM that everyone is flocking to in the past week (at least it seems that way on Radiant and in every PVP I see 9 out of 10 players use eye shot) and then BH will probably become rare with that switch delay and slowness in mobility after the rebalance.
I like rifleman and I hadn't even hit speed cap, I play swordsman far more often but when I'm hunting with my guild/group I sit back and shoot away with the rifles so I'm staying with rifleman no matter what.
id just like to say that, bh is definatelty not a fotm profession. too many skillpoints to spend for comparitivelylittle power. What you are seeing are master pistoleers + bh pistol line. People are flocking to this because of the geon stun pistol, when combined with bh pistol line u have urself a mini rifleman, with better defences and the ability to target 2 particular pools. Plus torso shot has a flame dot - mind u a $hitty one.
Im fairly confident in saying that master bh is as rare as it ever was - despite it being many times easier to master than when we "old school" 
bh's mastered it (a hint of bitterness perhaps).
This isnt a flame, im just pointing out that bh is far too $hit to be considered FOTM, by any stretch of the imagination
oh and to add something constructive to this post. Riflemen do need to be nerfed, maybe only a little, but heres how id do it.
Reduce pistol, range to 30 m - pistol users penalty to movement - 1 m/s slower - pistol speed cap at 1s
Reduce carbine range to 45 m - carbine users penalty to movement - 1.5 m/s slower - carbine speed cap at 1.5s
Riflemens movement penalty - 2m/s slower riflemen speed cap at 2.25s ( u currently have much more dmgaing weapons so the penalty is a little greater in this aspect)
melee range should be reduced to 10 m
tkm's will have a 0.5 m/s penalty for holding a vk - because it is not necessary
all other melee classes should run at normal speed when holding their weapons
and heavy wepons should have a range of 40m (including specials)and a speed cap of 3 seconds - movement penalty should be 3 ms slower- and the accuracy of these weapons should be vastly increased.
of course im not familiar with how all these things will work together and i havnt taken the time to work out dps and factor it into movement speed and weapons speed, because im to lazy, so of course all these figures would be subject to substantial change
Message Edited by DarkShade9 on 06-06-2004 04:53 AM
Message Edited by DarkShade9 on 06-06-2004 04:56 AM
Zelos1 wrote:
Rifle butt smash? Bayonets? VibroBayonets?
DarkShade9 wrote:
oh and to add something constructive to this post. Riflemen do need to be nerfed, maybe only a little, but heres how id do it.
Not really. Riflemen is actually a working profession. That is why they seem overpowered. They work while others do not.
Reduce pistol, range to 30 m - pistol users penalty to movement - 1 m/s slower - pistol speed cap at 1s
Reduce carbine range to 45 m - carbine users penalty to movement - 1.5 m/s slower - carbine speed cap at 1.5s
Won't happen. There are way to many pistol users that would scream about this. Not only Pistoleers but also Smuggler, BH, and Commandos use pistols. If they won't do the range limits for Pistols then they also can not do it for Carbines.
Riflemens movement penalty - 2m/s slower riflemen speed cap at 2.25s ( u currently have much more dmgaing weapons so the penalty is a little greater in this aspect)
Why would a rifle fire slower? There is no mechanical reason for this to be true. Rifles, carbines, and pistols would also use the same mechanics and have about the same limitations.
The speed prior to the 1sec cap is aim time. Rifles start off with a lot more time needed to aim. But at Master level you are so good your aim time is minimal. As is true with all the professions. If we wanted to get realistic, the aim time would depend on the range to target. But also in very close quarters combat, most people don't aim. You point and shoot because that is nearly as effective and a lot faster at those very close ranges.
People say you shouldn't be able to aim and fire a rifle at close distances of say 5m. They are right in a way. But you also wouldn't aim a Pistol or Carbine. You point and shoot.
This idea is an attempt to give everyone the same DPS. However balancing is NOT just about DPS. Carbineers have more status effect changes. Should these be reduced to be in line with the other professions? Pistoleers have more defenses. Should those be reduced to be in line with the other professions? If so you have identical professions with only the weapon graphics being different.
If you do not also do that then you have an unbalancing in favor of those professions using the linear balance approach most people here seem to think about. Which is why linear balance can not work. They also only look at balancing at the Master level. Which is a major disadvantage for the non-Master Rifleman since most of the Riflemans speed, accuracy, etc come from the Masters box.
melee range should be reduced to 10 m
tkm's will have a 0.5 m/s penalty for holding a vk - because it is not necessary
all other melee classes should run at normal speed when holding their weapons
This does not make much sense. Why would a TKA with a small set of VK's actually be slower than someone carrying a large two handed weapon such as a Power Hammer or a NS Energy Lance?
If anything a TKA with no weapons should be fastest running speed. With VK's they should have the same speed as Fencers. Fencers would be faster than Swordsmen, and Swordsmen faster than Pikemen.
and heavy wepons should have a range of 40m (including specials)and a speed cap of 3 seconds - movement penalty should be 3 ms slower- and the accuracy of these weapons should be vastly increased.
of course im not familiar with how all these things will work together and i havnt taken the time to work out dps and factor it into movement speed and weapons speed, because im to lazy, so of course all these figures would be subject to substantial change
The simple fact is that they can not do any kind of balancing unless all the professions are acutally working. Something that is not true nor does the "combat nerf" purport to do. You can not "balance" some working professions with those that are not working. Because if you ever fix those that are broken then you have lost the balance. Which means another "rebalance" every time a profession is fixed. Considering the number of broken professions, that means a lot of "rebalances" since it seems they can only work on one combat profession every couple of months at best.
Great, just great...
Waste93 wrote:
DarkShade9 wrote:
oh and to add something constructive to this post. Riflemen do need to be nerfed, maybe only a little, but heres how id do it.
Not really. Riflemen is actually a working profession. That is why they seem overpowered. They work while others do not.
I disagree, nobody shoudl be able to huge amounts of damage to an unhealable pool with a wepons that cuts through most armour and other prtoection with ease.
Reduce pistol, range to 30 m - pistol users penalty to movement - 1 m/s slower - pistol speed cap at 1s
Reduce carbine range to 45 m - carbine users penalty to movement - 1.5 m/s slower - carbine speed cap at 1.5s
Won't happen. There are way to many pistol users that would scream about this. Not only Pistoleers but also Smuggler, BH, and Commandos use pistols. If they won't do the range limits for Pistols then they also can not do it for Carbines.
I cant speak for everyone, but i use pistols and carbines and i personallly would welcome these changes, it would add another tactical element to combat.
Riflemens movement penalty - 2m/s slower riflemen speed cap at 2.25s ( u currently have much more dmgaing weapons so the penalty is a little greater in this aspect)
Why would a rifle fire slower? There is no mechanical reason for this to be true. Rifles, carbines, and pistols would also use the same mechanics and have about the same limitations.
there is no mechanical reason for this to be true? I think there is. If you have ever fired a bolt action rifle, you would know that it is a lot slower than an smg. However i think your view of the rifles in swg are like the assault rifles in real life. i believe this view to be faulty as the devs have said on several occasions that they view this porfessions as a sniper. and no sniper uses an ak 47 or other such assault rifle - unless of course they strap on a scope and fire it in single shot mode.
More to the point however is that this game was always designed with the idea that pistols were the fastest, carbines the second fastest, and rifles and heavy weapons the slowest. - if you can get ur hands on a genuine t21 or jawa ion rifle, feel free to break it open and explain why mechanically it cannot fire as fast as a pistol.
Its important to remember that this is only a game, and despite how unrealistsic or how much it goes against continuity, its imperative that everything is balanced, and in order to do so, the more powerfull, longer ranged and more accurate weapons will have to be slower.
of course like you said this does not take into account the other aspects that proffessions offer. therefore, like i said, the figures i put forward would have to be subject to massive tweaking.
The speed prior to the 1sec cap is aim time. Rifles start off with a lot more time needed to aim. But at Master level you are so good your aim time is minimal. As is true with all the professions. If we wanted to get realistic, the aim time would depend on the range to target. But also in very close quarters combat, most people don't aim. You point and shoot because that is nearly as effective and a lot faster at those very close ranges.
People say you shouldn't be able to aim and fire a rifle at close distances of say 5m. They are right in a way. But you also wouldn't aim a Pistol or Carbine. You point and shoot.
This idea is an attempt to give everyone the same DPS. However balancing is NOT just about DPS. Carbineers have more status effect changes. Should these be reduced to be in line with the other professions? Pistoleers have more defenses. Should those be reduced to be in line with the other professions? If so you have identical professions with only the weapon graphics being different.
i agree with your point here.
If you do not also do that then you have an unbalancing in favor of those professions using the linear balance approach most people here seem to think about. Which is why linear balance can not work. They also only look at balancing at the Master level. Which is a major disadvantage for the non-Master Rifleman since most of the Riflemans speed, accuracy, etc come from the Masters box.
melee range should be reduced to 10 m
tkm's will have a 0.5 m/s penalty for holding a vk - because it is not necessary
all other melee classes should run at normal speed when holding their weapons
This does not make much sense. Why would a TKA with a small set of VK's actually be slower than someone carrying a large two handed weapon such as a Power Hammer or a NS Energy Lance?
this is maybe a bit silly lol
If anything a TKA with no weapons should be fastest running speed. With VK's they should have the same speed as Fencers. Fencers would be faster than Swordsmen, and Swordsmen faster than Pikemen.
thats probabaly a bit better, however you dont want the tka's closing intoo faston the ranged proffs otherwise they would be overpowered and more balancing would be required.
and heavy wepons should have a range of 40m (including specials)and a speed cap of 3 seconds - movement penalty should be 3 ms slower- and the accuracy of these weapons should be vastly increased.
of course im not familiar with how all these things will work together and i havnt taken the time to work out dps and factor it into movement speed and weapons speed, because im to lazy, so of course all these figures would be subject to substantial change
The simple fact is that they can not do any kind of balancing unless all the professions are acutally working. Something that is not true nor does the "combat nerf" purport to do. You can not "balance" some working professions with those that are not working. Because if you ever fix those that are broken then you have lost the balance. Which means another "rebalance" every time a profession is fixed. Considering the number of broken professions, that means a lot of "rebalances" since it seems they can only work on one combat profession every couple of months at best.
lol you and i both know that no professions will ever be fully working, at least under soe, however the combat balance is coming. The devs have been using this as an excuse for everything that is wrong with the game. IF they pull it off and do what they promise ( basically fix every broken profession, balance them with everyone else and make my printer spit 20$ bills at me) ill be happy, but more likely than not they'll screw it up again and we'll basically be back to square 1.