Rifleman Archive

A rifleman my levelshould have +20 ranged defense, assuming they have 4004 in Marksman (which they should, since IMO warning shot and supression fire are indespensible for riflemen).

I actually have +30 ranged defense right now, the other +10 comes from my Swordsman tree.

I do have +92 rifle accuracy at my level, though that apparently didn't help.

That's why I'm wondering: what's the accuracy modifier for Eyeshot? Special attacks have their own accuracy modifier and swgcenter lists this number for some, but it's not clear what the number means and it doesn't list eyeshot.

I'd bet that Eyeshot has some ridiculous modifier which is why it so rarely misses.

I've played my friends character, who is a 4404 CH, 0020 BH and 0001 Pistoleer. He doesn't have a lot of accuracy bonuses but I still can land eyeshots pretty consistantly while running. If he dropped CH and did 0040 BH and some more pistoleer he'd be like every other pistoleer: never misses an Eyeshot.

If he's shooting at the 1 second cap, he's clearly not a noob BH. Coupled with the fact that you have a 5 second delay between your shots leads me to believe that you have a ways to go in rifleman.

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Noules000 wrote:

It's known that most pistoleer specials have an accuracy bonus of about +50. It's not known if eyeshot has the same modifier, although it's possible. Rifle specials seem to have about a +5 accuracy.

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That would explain pretty much everything.

The penalty for firing ata badrange for your weapon is -50, so while pistoleer special attack accuracy bonuses cancel out 45 of that 50, rifleman specials only cancel out 5.

That's a gap of 45 accuracy for nothing. On top of BH+Pistol stacking issues, that's a heap of bonuses.

And that's assuming Eyeshot isn't actually greater than +50.

And saying a stacked Rifleman would beat a nonstacked BH is kinda silly. The vast majority of them are stacked, and a stacked BH will steal beat a stacked rifleman simply because of the insane amount of accuracy bonuses they get.

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Daxl wrote:

If he's shooting at the 1 second cap, he's clearly not a noob BH. Coupled with the fact that you have a 5 second delay between your shots leads me to believe that you have a ways to go in rifleman.

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That's a 9.8 second pre-nerf T21 poweredup and sliced for damage. Anyone who lets you shoot at themfor 10 secondsbefore noticing you is a noob. We were both overt. My plan was the usual: land a huge bleed and run.

At 4424, I have no more speed bonuses to my rifle until I hit master.

It doesn't take much effort for a BH to hit the 1 second cap. He certainly doesn't have to master anything. I'd bet that I have more XP invested than he does.

Pecos,

And saying a stacked Rifleman would beat a nonstacked BH is kinda silly. The vast majority of them are stacked, and a stacked BH will steal beat a stacked rifleman simply because of the insane amount of accuracy bonuses they get.

Well, not always, I've seen the opposite occur on more than one occassion. But that's not worth debating, it's probably true on average given identical "skill" and gear (appropriate gear). We could test this on testserver, that would be cool. I think eyeshot on average will always have the advantage. I've seen single master riflemen with flushing volley incap multiple opponentsin just a handful of shots.

But the main point I wanted to make is:

The vast majority of BHs add pistoleer for the speed. However, the vast majority of MASTER pistoleers do not add BH pistol, and want to be fairly comparable/effective as a stand-alone profession. That's why I get so bent out of shape with the affect range/accuracy nerfs will have on pistoleers as a whole. You can go toe to toe with a BH (at mastery), a pure pistoleer at mastery cannot.

I'm cool with not making BH stack, as long as pistoleer is made to be more effective as a stand-alone. Smuggler specials aren't a HUGE increase like speed/accuracy/eyeshot/torsoshot are, so smuggler is fine IMO. Varvidos and I discussed that before he left, and he was cool with it too.

A TKA precision/fencer S&G/master rifle/master marksman will have +112 rifle accuracy, +10 rifle accuracy while moving, +84 ranged defense and the same ROF while using specials as the BH pistol/pistoleer (1s). The BH pistol/pistoleer has +145 pistol accuracy, +15 pistol accuracy while moving, and +22 ranged defense. The BH can potentially get a bit more ranged defense (by taking rifle concealment) but no more than +6. Note the rifleman still has about 25 points remaining.

The net difference between the two in accuracy while moving is +39 in the rifleman's favor. If Eyeshot has a +50 accuracy bonus and rifleman specials has a +5, this is a +6 bonus for the BH's favor - which is basically a wash, working out to a 3% difference in hit rate compared to complete novices shooting each other. The rifleman also does signficantly more damage per hit, but ends up using mind to use his specials.

Also, when I say 'non-stacked', I'm referring to what would be the case if BH pistol skills did not stack with pistoleer skills. That's the real problem, not the specials being accurate. The fact that specials are accurate AND the skills stack is the problem. If the specials were made to be inaccurate, you merely penalize the non-BH pistoleers, without hurting the BH pistoleers very much.

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Pecos wrote:

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Daxl wrote:

If he's shooting at the 1 second cap, he's clearly not a noob BH. Coupled with the fact that you have a 5 second delay between your shots leads me to believe that you have a ways to go in rifleman.

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That's a 9.8 second pre-nerf T21 poweredup and sliced for damage. Anyone who lets you shoot at themfor 10 secondsbefore noticing you is a noob. We were both overt. My plan was the usual: land a huge bleed and run.

At 4424, I have no more speed bonuses to my rifle until I hit master.

It doesn't take much effort for a BH to hit the 1 second cap. He certainly doesn't have to master anything. I'd bet that I have more XP invested than he does.

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Well when you hit master (assuming your master marksmen) you go from 75 to 95 speed bonus. In other words, you will shoot 5 times as fast. You'll be pretty badass then. I've fought master rifleman before, and they're frickin scary.

I'm just pointing out that you're comparing apples to oranges. A BH who's maxxed is combat line vs. a rifleman who hasn't. It's not a fair comparison to look at and then call a BH overpowered. If you were a master rifleman and got the drop on a BH, you'd probably win, period.

I would like to see riflemen and bounty hunters brought into line for PvP, with the payoff being that we are improved for PvE. I would be happy withbeing nerfed down to only a 50% chance of beating a Master Pistoleer as a Master Rifleman (instead of the 95% chance it is now) if the payoff was improving my PvE performance to match.

BH's have to be part of this, though, because while a Rifleman stands a 95% chance of beating a Pistoleer, a BH stands a 95% chance of beating a Rifleman, all things being equal.

When it comes to stuff like faction missions, it just plain sucks to be a rifleman. We don't have the killing power, accuracy or defense to take camps like similar level pistoleers do, and our payoff for this reduced damage is that we STILL get defeated in PvP by any Pistoleer who also picked up Bounty Hunter.

We shouldn't be getting the short end of the stick in both PvP and PvE.

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Daxl wrote:

I'm just pointing out that you're comparing apples to oranges. A BH who's maxxed is combat line vs. a rifleman who hasn't. It's not a fair comparison to look at and then call a BH overpowered. If you were a master rifleman and got the drop on a BH, you'd probably win, period.

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According to recently released stats, Bounty Hunter is the least mastered profession in the game. This, to me, invalidates the BH argument of "but it takes so many skill points to master". Almost none of you are bothering to master it.

0040 BH has +80 speed and +105 accuracy! With 0001 Pistoleer that goes to +91 speed and +110 accuracy. +6 more speed for each of the 3 additional pistoleer boxes.

So at 0040 BH and 0002 Pistoleer you have a 97% speed reduction for all your shots.

That's broken.

So broken, it's funny. We aren't talking masters here, we aren't even talking very skilled.

Actually, I would propose that BH carbine not stack with carbineer skill mods, as well. The reason pistol skill is singled out here is because it's the best example as to why it's a bad idea. If carbineers were fixed and working well we might be talking about carbine skill as the example rather than pistol.

The difference here is that a rifleman/pistoleer doesn't get all the benefits of the class at the same time. The pistol accuracy/speed/specials don't help when using a rifle. Vice versa when using a pistol. Similarly, a BH/pistoleer should have the flexibility of using their BH pistol skills or pistoleer skills, but not both at the same time (there are some mods that break this rule - such as ranged defense - which is precisely why each class gets so little of such mods).

Well I'm all for 1 elite ranged combat class per character. Actually aside from dabblers I don't see a downside. BH do get huge speed and accuracy bonuses but if posture change and defense bonuses worked for other classes like they should that wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Heres me vs 2 BH.. once carbine BH .. one PIstol/BH

Notice how much i miss with Dx2 also

on a postive note look at my very low encrumbance armor which Rifleman could wear and how much damage i can prevent.. I would suggest you guys pick up Maruader armor (then pick up Ubese Boots boots seem to take a lot of hits)

http://www.gatcity.com/Surfer/tankage.jpg

youll also see they had 2 weak pets.. And youll see where when i landed Fan shot did a uber 129 damage.. you know since us pistoleers do some much damage