Rifleman Archive

Thread: Understanding why people cry nerf...read BEFORE you cry nerf

PsychoticChipmunk
Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:18 pm
#14

I'm simply pointing out the same thing that he did.A solely master rifleman cannot fire specials (like SS2) at 1 second. A rifleman plus can however that is something else because it costs more skill points and, and since we can really only get it with master marksman and speed tapes that means that our option to become faster is open to everyone as well. I don't honestly know what skill mod that a pistoleer needs to fire his specials at one shot per second however I"m sure that it has been tested many times and is likely common knowledge to a few pistoleers to help you out. I honestly don't see how they would need many modifications to reach it since their gun speed is much faster then ours right out of the factory hopper but like I said I do not know.



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PsychoticChipmunk
Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:40 pm
#15

Like I said I don't know what they are so I guess I"ll just concede the point but still that is simply adjusting mods on a gun. I have, many times actually, promoted the idea of giving us a high damage, high AP, slow rifle (35 seconds on the gun so we can't spam shots) as a sniper rifle and nerf the T-21 to be lower AP maybe up the damage a little and let it be an assault rifle.


That way we can pick and choose our speed. If what you are trying to suggest is a speed cap then I am quite staunchly against you (I choose pistols at noonish) but if what you mean is something similiar to what I posted above then add your voice to the choir. I honestly feel that carbines should be the fastest, then rifles, then pistols since that is much more realistic but that isn't what the devs want so oh well I suppose.


Really I guess we all just need to wait another month or so (lowsy leap year) for the revamp so we can all re-adjust our templates and relearn everything. I'm more or less screwed since I'm just able to get MRM and master marksman (plus a line of smuggler) with my palette but oh well I can live with whatever happens since I'm sticking with rifles for the long haul. Got here wading through the 2.5x modifier and warping so why drop it now.




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Tiduch
Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:54 pm
#16

Exactly my point. Nerfing is not a solution but try to figuring out a way to balance thing abit. I seen so many times people scream nerfs to CH, Pistoleer until CH now a almost crap and Pistoleer well dont want to go deep here. Anyone remember how pistoleers really badass in pvp with disarming shot 2? The thing is people just cry for nerf on whatever class they feel over power ATM. Unfortunately, Rifleman/TKA, Rifleman/CM or Doctor ATM. Rather than bash or insult those who disagrees with you try to see their points and maybe come to some compromise. Make no mistake, there will always be a godly template or people rather fond of saying Flavor Of The Month template.


Well let's close this chapter and just enjoy whatever template you have until combat revamp.





Jaccen Horn- Retired from SWG
dimmu-borgir
Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:10 pm
#17






Tiduch wrote:

Exactly my point. Nerfing is not a solution but try to figuring out a way to balance thing abit. I seen so many times people scream nerfs to CH, Pistoleer until CH now a almost crap and Pistoleer well dont want to go deep here. Anyone remember how pistoleers really badass in pvp with disarming shot 2? The thing is people just cry for nerf on whatever class they feel over power ATM. Unfortunately, Rifleman/TKA, Rifleman/CM or Doctor ATM. Rather than bash or insult those who disagrees with you try to see their points and maybe come to some compromise. Make no mistake, there will always be a godly template or people rather fond of saying Flavor Of The Month template.


Well let's close this chapter and just enjoy whatever template you have until combat revamp.








you see, people dont like to die, so instead of adjusting their playstyle, they find it easier to go cry nerf alot... thus, things like these happen.



Dimmu Borgir

I art in thine base

Slaying thine doodz

kubakabra
Sun Feb 15, 2004 5:59 am
#18

"I challenge anyone can prove to me a master pistoleer with unslice DX2 can shoot pistoleer best 2 specials faster than a master rifleman with unslice T21 shotting rifleman best 2 specials. That is what I am talking about the speed mobs from Carbineer, Pistoleer, and Rifleman do not seem right."



I challenge you to prove to me, in mathematical formulae, that they can't, just as our rifleman friend did (sorry, I'm no good with names). I know that you seem to have reached an agreement, but I just can't let this one go. You refused to acknowledge the mathematical argument for rifles, but then you demanded one for pistols.


Here's another thing that really bothers me about you, please please please reread your post before you post. One or two grammer or spelling errors is just fine by me; but when you lack the ability to form a coherent, readable sentence, something has to give. Don't try to argue logically when you can't communicate your logic.


It's early, I'm tired, and I'm in a bad mood. Don't mess with me right now.


-I guess they were right when they called me a grammar nazi



Oh, Stranger! Go tell the Spartans we have done our duty.
-Spartan Monument at Thermopylae
Tiduch
Sun Feb 15, 2004 5:39 pm
#19

kubakabra,


I am sorry if my English offense you. you see, English is not my mother language. You have that advantage over me, for that I am not apologize. But for you to nit pick on someone grammatical or spelling without knowing if they use second or even third language to communicate with you, that says to me plenty about you. I dont give a rat about your perfect gramma and spelling. I think most people probably get a point I try to make. So if you want to talk about speed problem in this game I am more than happy to try to communicate thru English.


FYI Anyone who has master rifleman and pistoleer can confirm to you that master rifleman shoot faster than master pistoleer with any rifle with speed delay of 5 sec to 7. for master pistoleer to shoot any pistoleer specials, with an exception of Stopping Shot , he needs a pistol with speed 1.7 or less. Noticed most DX2, FWG5, Republic Blaster, and Tangle all have speed of 2.2 or above when craft.


But i am not here to rant or calling for rifleman nerf. just point out a couple of interesting point. Who care what the mathematic formuler is when you can shoot any special at any weapon speed at 1 shot per sec with 100 weapon speed mod. And if you really care about mathematical formular then please stop by Pistoleer forum and read about the weapon and speed there.


Oh next time when you jump on someone about their gramma and spelling I suggest you proof read your message a few times to see if there are any miss spelling, eh?





Jaccen Horn- Retired from SWG
PsychoticChipmunk
Sun Feb 15, 2004 6:43 pm
#20

The burden of proof always lies on the presenter. As such you are the person who should lurk in the pistoleer forum and find out the information on their speed delays and such. However since I'm a nice guy at times I'll grant you this one omission and use these stats I found right off the bat on their stickied threads (stats for the gun, I got the personal speed modifier off of a character builder so they could also be off). If it's wrong then get the right one, if the shot isn't the best for PvP then get the right one:


Stopping Shot: 5.0x damage modifier. 4.0x delay modifier


Shot speed = weapon speed [* special delay] * (1 - (personal speed modifier * .01))


Shot speed= 2 x [ 4 x (1-(74 x .01))]
Shot speed= 2 x [ 4 x (.26)]
Shot speed= 2 x 1.04

Shot speed= 2.08


So stopping shot fires basically once ever 2 seconds with solely master pistoleer. So it is slower, if my numbers are right and if this is the special to be, then strafe shot 2. However increasing these numbers any will just make it so that smugglers and bounty hunters can fire their pistols and specials faster and faster so it really is a slippery slope for you guys. I apologize if my numbers are low since the patch changed them or something but again the true burden is for you to get the information and debunk us not for me to get it for you. So please double check it all.



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Tiduch
Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:11 pm
#21

Republic Blaster has speed of 2.5 using the fomular it comes to 2.6 for stopping shot.


DX2 has 2.4 speed so roughly same.


Tangle gahhhh 3.0+ speed so horrible.


Man now I wish I didnt post any darn thing at all. Whole time didnt want to piss or calling for any kind of nerf just try to point out something alot of people think bogus or bug.


People bring up rifle speed but totally ignore how easy to go from speed 90 to 95 or 100 to reach speed cap. Or dont even need extra speed if using 5 sec speed Jawa.


Finding skill mod to go from 90 to 95 way more easy than from 74 to 95.


Trust me I am not here to bad mouth rifleman or defense Pistoleer. Just point out the speed discrepancy.


Or maybe I try to reach 100 posts see if I became Veteran like alot of people, who know? lol


Take it easy and enjoy the game





Jaccen Horn- Retired from SWG
PsychoticChipmunk
Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:36 pm
#22

Yes, but the weapon's speed is not what needs to be verified. What is a pistoleers attack speed with solely pistoleer? I'm a MRM and MMark so I don't know this, you need to find it out. What is the best and most used attack for either PvE or PvP (for us it's HS2 and SS2) I'm a MRM and MMark so I don't know this, you need to find it out.


The burden of proof is always on the accuser. You say that we have too much speed in comparison to pistols well I gave the equation with likely dated numbers, you need to go and find the actual ones to get an accurate answer. I'm not going to do all the work for you since I am the one on defense here.




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Tiduch
Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:49 pm
#23

Ok let's forget the whole things. But for any of you that interest, I found a guy who has been super nice and done the whole calculator on weapon and DPS. Please check it out. You can put any weapon damage, speed, and class type i.e. Carbineer, Pistoleer, or Rifleman and it spits out all the special and DPS.

http://killyourpc.org/swg/swg_dps.php?weapon_min=63&weapon_max=175&weapon_speed=2.1&pc_speed=74&class=Pistol

That is just an example of a FWG5 with 2.1 speed.


Have fun for anyone that check this thread.

Please remember forget whole things I mention in this post. So tired of aggruing over a game mechanic.



Jaccen Horn- Retired from SWG
Shilak
Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:12 pm
#24

Jawa isnt much of an issue when you counter it with mk3 PSG (35-40% stun is easy to get) and get hold of stun layering for your composite. Getting the PSG is the key,using aPSGwith stun resistthe Jawa is about as effective as a T21 for headshotting, with the stun layered composite it is much worse.


RIfleman has many bugs which are currently benefitting it, if they were actually fixed 90% of the nerf calls would actually vanish, here is a list of the bugs I know of which directly benefit riflemen: -


1) Rifleman melee defence bug, this causes the rifleman to be very hard to hit even with the minimal melee defence.


2) PSG shifting vulnerability bug. This causes the PSG to have varying vulnerabilities when it should actually have none.


3) PSG deactivating bug. PSGs turn off when you cross server borders, change planet or relog. Also sometimes this causes the PSG to bug completely and fail to work for a period of time.


4) Human secondary statistic bug. This allows human riflemen to raise their Focus and Willpower to high (max 1100 instead of 600) thus allowing them to use specials with less mind cost than they should be able too.


5) Pre-nerf T21s still lurking around in game. Prior to the nerf coming along many of these weapons were stockpiled for after the nerf, and this has resulted in many complaints about the large damage that T21s do.


Other things which affect the perception that riflemen are overpowered are: -


1) Players assuming that they can PvP with no armour or PSG.


2) Players thinking that running directly at the rifleman from 60m+ is a good idea.


3) Players entering into PvP with wounds or without buffs/food/drugs.


4) Players failing to correctly use the cover around them to break the riflemans LOS. I actually quite often see melee players running straight at me, rather than moving into cover and waiting or using it to get closer.


5) Non-riflemen having very low mind pools. I often see unbuffed pistoleers, carbineers, fencers, TKAs, BHs, etc in PvP with unbuffed mind pools of around 500.




M O R T A R I U S
Master Bounty Hunter / Master Pistoleer / Small Blue Fly on Chimaera

station1
Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:16 pm
#25







First off, I'm not calling for a Rifleman nerf.




But if you are asking why people call nerf, first rule out the noob stuff:


-players not using good armor/buffs/psgs

-players not using good tactics

-players ignoring their Mind Pool



Now lets say a "smart" player going against a Rifleman gets himself a good suit of armor. Lets say he's lucky and his server has maybe 30% stun layers available. He gets his 35% PSG. He's a human and his Mind and Willpower is 1100. He drinks some +500 Fishak and eats that food that raises Mind. He saves using the Muon for when he needs it. He gets stat buffs from a Doctor. (It isn't practical that he should always try to get an Entertainer Mind buff for PvP. There aren't enough people willing to do it.)



Should he have a chance?



I would think so. But when the Rifleman took out me and my group of 5-6 people in Theed the other day, he proved me wrong. None of us could hit him except maybe 1 out of 15 shots. He could run and shoot his giant T21 backwords at us and hit every shot. Although we tried to stay out of his ideal range, range didn't seem to matter. We got nailed at point blank consistently. He could spama highly damaging AP3 specialat useverysecond or soand every shot would hit. Intimidating and warcrying him just delayed the inevitable.



My armor and food-buffed Mind was cut through like butter. My PSG was destroyed quickly. My Muon only gave me 1 or 2 more secondsseconds to live.



He wore no armor. Why bother? No one could hit him anyway. This is just one example of many.



Maybe he was a Rifleman/TKM. (likely)



THIS is why people call for nerfs to Riflemen. Because Rifleman + TKM is the unbeatable template. You can disagree, but I would suggest that you look at the number of people flocking to the Rifleman and TKM right now. People aren't stupid. Many will become whatever template is winning the most.



You can blame it on the stacking, thats what I do. I don't even disagree with having "Defensive" templates per se, but when you have Riflemen/TKM, you have some of the best Defensive AND Offensive power in the game.



The one complaint that is specific to Rifleman is the speed issue. The Devs designed a system where the tradeoff for higher damage was slower speed. People have figured out a way around that with Rifles.



Something needs to change. Do you guys really want a game full of Riflemen+TKMs and nothing else?









Svenholio
Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:55 am
#26

I will never understand the argument of 'pistols shout shoot faster then rifles' if someone could explain to me why, in clear, logical andunderstandible terms, I will be amazed. I can not see any basis for this suggestion. If Rifleman was renamed Sniper, then yes, but we arnt, we are Riflemen, the user of of rifles, these may be either the Sniper Rifle (even though these are not in the game) or the user of the support weapon, Light Machine Gun/Medium Machine Gun (which, in Star Wars RPG books, the T21 is one of)



Some one explain to me why and how the pistol should be faster, and I discuss it.



Anyway, I thoughtthe latest patch did away with the Template/Defense stacking problem?





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FLUKED 1 FREE UNLOCK AFTER DOING 6 PROFS NO HOLOS
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